What shall I work on first for the next CE release?

[mcewanw]

a full featured browser is a must. Whether this be Seamonkey, Firefox or Firedog would be up to the developers. Dillo or Pbrowser are a big turn-off for the unsuspecting newby.

I guess I should clarify something for the non-developers following this thread. We have both a defaultbrowser (Firefox, Opera, Seamonkey, Midori, etc...) for viewing online URLs (http://....) and a defaulthtmlviewer (puppy browser, netsurf, dillo...) for viewing local html files such as local documentation (which most find more user friendly than man pages)

If Puppy was distributed without any full featured browser, I would see the point of providing something like dillo or Pbrowser so that something was available for reading local html files. However, once the full featured browser is installed, other than on very... slow machines (486 or P1 class say), I don't really see the point of having Pbrowser or dillo (even though they open quicker and render pages quicker - it is not as if Seamonkey is terribly slow...). First thing I do with Puppy is make sure that Seamonkey opens local html files - I don't want Pbrowser, it just doesn't provide the features of Seamonkey or Firefox.

Note that I use relatively slow computers - a Celeron 400MHz laptop and a Pentium III 450MHz laptop and these are both fine with Seamonkey or Firefox.

Actually, I find it a real pain that by default clicking on local html files starts up a very limited browser - I believe that most users start up their main browser (Seamonkey or Firefox or Opera) pretty much immediately after booting up anyway (unless they are particularly wanting to do something else such as graphics processing). So why provide a limited features browser and force that upon users for opening up local html files? I imagine that it is fun to write such browsers (as a programmer), just for the novelty sake of seeing how fast they can render a simple html page, but beyond that their limited features makes them an annoying nuisance to use in my opinion.

[technosaurus]

The main reason for the viewer is so it doesn't take as long to open local files. For me Seamonkey opens in <1 sec, so I would agree that there is no need for the separate viewer, but I've had reports from users with older computers that it can be as much as 30 seconds. This is something that ttuuxxx and I should coordinate - maybe the 4.X series should target newer systems and 2.X legacy systems.

Then again Midori could be a good solution to all (fast, light and full featured)... no email, calendar or editor AFAIK though. I just need to figure out what dependencies are worth including (for instance builtin html5 video requires gstreamer, but it is not widely used and mozilla plugins work with it so it isn't as necessary)

[clarf]

Reading the recent comments, I can see a theme that can have heavy debate. I already voted in this thread, so i´ll point a recent discovered HTML light browser kylie that could be considered, although it´s a new project far from a stable release...

http://siag.nu/kylie/

There are other good stuff here, the best I had tried is Pen a load balancer for simple tcp based protocols. I´m using it in a production environment with many users and the load balancing algorithm is very good, simple but effective.

Greetings,
clarf

[technosaurus]

Most of the work on kylie (as well as the other siag components excluding Pen) pretty much dropped off about 6 or 7 years ago with only a couple of small patches since. I compiled the whole suite earlier this year - they all need too much work to be useful. The latest available version of kylie is 0.0.7 released in 2002. There are better, more updated components in GPE palmtop environment.

[otropogo]

What's "CE"?

I could probably suggest some simple improvements for Puppy, but is this the place?

For instance. when I boot Puppy, I have to hang around until it presents me with the list of available saves to use. I'd like to be able to use the Puppy pfix command at startup to preselect the 2fs file, and any additional sfs file, that I want to use.

It would also be nice to be able to suspend the automatic save function at any point during the session, and then resume it.

A wizard for changing default programs (browser, graphics viewer, etc.) would also be very useful to me.

Oh and could you bring back MUT and make it work?

[ferikenagy]

my user point of view....(I have no dev. skill...) I should prefer to keep puppy straight, simple, and funcional...
Puppy is like an Swiss knife , bundled with amazing number of litle aplication (low memory footprint). It is amazing how much you can do with so small piece of software(an complete desktop system).
First priority should be an update of these aplication, some of them are prety old version, and some of them are missing features unenabaled at compile time.
For example "ffmpeg" is prety old (SVN-unknown version) with "ffserver" included with some bugs and partly unfunctional. So theoretically somebody could use puppy as stream server too, but
he has to get a newer version of 'ffmpeg'&'ffserver' or to get an complete huge 'vlc' (not that srip down version vlc...pet). Here we are: which media player?
From my point of view all major 3 (gxine,mplayer,vlc)could be ok if they are 100% functional. Barry prefered gxine over mplayer for 2 reasons: he had compileing issues with mplayer, and gxine
seems that handles DVD menus better than mplayer. But mplayer can handle direct local webcamera,analog TV & radio card (mplayer.pet cannot handle radio,compile option), digital TV cards DVB's .
Gxine can handle digital TV cards DVB, but cannot analog Tv card and webcams.VLC seems (the full version) to handle all ( and can be streaming server too, replacing 'ffserver')but seems to big for puppy.
So I vote for mplayer for extra new features (TV analog/digital & webcam player) and acceptable memory footprint.
For the same reason is prefered Seamonkey in puppy: it is 3 in one (4 in one with FullerScreen slider presenter), browser, mail client and html editor, with the smallest fotprint for all these functions( it seems that seamonkey 20 has improved add-ons compatibility with Firefox)
With newer kernels we have much better support for webcams but no embeded puppy application to test it! the media player Gxine cannot handle webcams, AYTTM says it has yahoo webcam features, but it seems unfunctional in puppy,
XSANE in puppy won't recognize webcam also. It seems it is needed very litle (with litle or no memory overhead) to make puppy more harware functional
Talking about hardware, it seems the only missing feature of puppy regard his bigger brothers, is bluetooth management. Barry wont put bluetooth in puppy because the solutions in Gnome and KDE are bloated and uses to much daemons (Dbus,hal...).
But if someone could could write an little application to manually pair and start/stop the bluetooth device (in same manner as is Network Wizard), it should be an nice hardware feature.
Puppy is top in handling modems, for internet but lacks in having an small simple (maybe manually)fax transmiter and receiver programs (to be combined with Xsane & CUPS printing).
Office seems complete (abiword,gnumeric and even slide presenter with FullerScreen&Seamonkey) but an small pps viewer should be wonderfull if it exist somewhere in linux world ( java and wine+microsoft viewer are out of questions, too big)
Ideeas for missing small applicatins:
-we have text to pdf converter but no pdf to text extraction tool
-small vector grafic convertor tool between main vector formats and svg , and reverse, so we can use Inklite to vizualize & edit other main vector grafics.
So I subscribe to maintain Barry's excellent selection of applications but update them and extend where is possible their functionality.If you choose to change some application be aware to be more but not less versatile.
---------------------------------------
If at booting could be made to search first in PSUBDIR after the pup_xxx.sfs file, booting maybe faster?
I like the ideea of extended use of SFS files (resembling a little SLAX).It could be more flexibility.Even this CE edition could be imagined to be split in one base (barebone puppy) with all libraries, X, jwm,rox main system utilities let say about 60M, and one extension puppy-ce.sfs file
with the rest major application (mediaplayer, browser...etc).It could solve some evergreen issues like:
-puppy for old, low RAM computers or new ones. Running on old computers with less RAM will load in memory only the base, not extension sfs file.
-disscussion of what browser,media player... can be easily solved by creating variants of extension SFS file with Firefox,Oper, VLC...
-The majority of pupplets (those with same kernel) should be only variants of extension SFS.There should no need for an whole ISO file, when base is the same. Minor changes from standard puppy appearance (like background image...) can be easily implemented by the layered structure of sfs file,
or changes can be made at start up by scripts enbeded in /etc/rc.d directory. We gain ftp server bandwith and storage, and with one frugal instal, multiple pupplets to choose from.
Barry has limited drastically the use of sfs files to 3 (later 6 ? ) because of computing penalty mainly in old computers. That could be easily solved: after playing(testing) with multiple sfs modules, somebody can write an simple script to unpack all used sfs to one directory structure and repack them in one global (extension) sfs file for daily use.
I appologise for posting so long, and wish every developper good work.

[PaulBx1]

My vote for what should be first priority? Go to the 4.3.1 bug report thread, and fix all the bugs. I guess I don't understand why this wouldn't always be the first priority. Guess I'm old-fashioned, or something.

[murmelbahn]

SECONDED -- that's where new and old users alike loose faith in Puppy.
As somebody else put it: go hypersonic instead of just supersonic!

JR

[raffy]

Well said, ferikenagy. Thanks for the comprehensive suggestions. I like how you stated

The majority of pupplets (those with same kernel) should be only variants of extension SFS.There should no need for an whole ISO file, when base is the same.

[rexterd]

The majority of pupplets (those with same kernel) should be only variants of extension SFS.There should no need for an whole ISO file, when base is the same. Minor changes from standard puppy appearance (like background image...) can be easily implemented by the layered structure of sfs file

PuppyCE-justX would be good + root aufs

[mistfire]

Oh I suggest that when during storage device access (e.g playing audio CD's) if the storage device was mounted, A message appear telling that the device will be unmounted automatically, then if the user proceed then The mounted device will be automatically unmounted. Because of this there is no need to unmount manually before accessing or controlling the storage devices. So it is more user friendly for newbies.

[PaulBx1]

Actually, I find it a real pain that by default clicking on local html files starts up a very limited browser

I want to second that. Dillo is a worthless piece of crap to me.

As to needing it for opening local files, come on. How many people have this collection of characteristics:
1) Open local files a lot, and before they've invoked seamonkey.
2) Have a very slow computer, so that Seamonkey takes a lot of time.
3) Are unwilling to wait, even though they have a slow computer.

Remember, this is only for the first invocation.

People like that can just learn to type "dillo" on the command line, if it bugs them so much. Maybe give them a desktop icon to click on, that says something like "fast, piece of crap browser".

Please do not migrate away from Seamonkey. For better or worse, Puppy is married to Seamonkey. Whenever a CE is made with firefox as the main browser, I will not consider using it. Even more so if Opera were the browser. Not because I think Firefox or Opera are bad, but because I just don't have the time to migrate from one perfectly good browser to another for no good reason. The only way to really handle browser preferences is to supply an iso with no browser (except maybe the limited, piece of crap one), and supply the main browsers as pets or sfs files. Then everyone can have the browser they want, without having to deal with a built-in one they don't like. Note, using sfs files also makes a browser upgrade work pretty slick, I think.

[otropogo]

Actually, I find it a real pain that by default clicking on local html files starts up a very limited browser

I want to second that. Dillo is a worthless piece of crap to me.

Agreed. Unfortunately, since making the mistake of installing Firedog 1.2, it has become the default browser on 4.3.1 for me, and I can't find a way to replace it with Seamonkey, which was the default when I upgraded to 4.3.1.

So now, if I want the functionality of Seamonkey (to change the text size, zoom, etc.) in viewing a saved html file, I've got to go the tedious "open with" route.

As to needing it for opening local files, come on. How many people have this collection of characteristics:
1) Open local files a lot, and before they've invoked seamonkey.
2) Have a very slow computer, so that Seamonkey takes a lot of time.
3) Are unwilling to wait, even though they have a slow computer.

Remember, this is only for the first invocation.

Hmmm. On my Firedog-reconfigured system, having Seamonkey open doesn't stop Puppy Browser from grabbing any html file I click on

...

Please do not migrate away from Seamonkey. For better or worse, Puppy is married to Seamonkey. Whenever a CE is made with firefox as the main browser, I will not consider using it. Even more so if Opera were the browser. Not because I think Firefox or Opera are bad, but because I just don't have the time to migrate from one perfectly good browser to another for no good reason.

Hear! Hear!

I previously had a low opinion of Seamonkey, but it has improved lately. The essentials are there and easy to find. Whereas they require tedious navigation or reconfiguration in Opera and Firefox, both of which I've tried on this system, and neither of which worked predictably.

Firedog 1.2 was particularly slow and quirky.

The only way to really handle browser preferences is to supply an iso with no browser (except maybe the limited, piece of crap one), and supply the main browsers as pets or sfs files. Then everyone can have the browser they want, without having to deal with a built-in one they don't like. Note, using sfs files also makes a browser upgrade work pretty slick, I think.

The problem with that is that :

a) a newbie's first taste of Puppy will be seriously marred by the need to install a decent browser, and

b) without a bundled browser, there won't be the level of support that presently exists

I think a better solution is to stick with Seamonkey, but provide a reliable, tested mechanism for removing it (and reinstalling it), if the user decides to try another browser.

For example, I installed Firedog 1.2, not knowing that it was going to replace Seamonkey as the default browser without asking. I then spent a dozen hours or more trying to find out how to fix this, and managing only to mess up my system further by following all the good advice offered.

I managed to remove Firedog (made difficult initially because Package Manager installed, but didn't list it for removal initially), but now I'm stuck with Dillo as default..

But newer isn't necessarily better. For instance, I noticed while testdriving Seamonkey 2.0 under TinyCore that one can no longer copy a filename into the "save as" field by clicking on an exsting filename in the save directory window. This capability in 1.1.18 has been a great timesaver for me, especially when saving forum threads page by page.

Maybe there's a way to recofigure SM 2.0 to allow this, but if not, it would be a PIA having to choose been up to date security and functionality...

[Minnesota]

technosaurus:

May I offer my 2 cents...

I see puppy at a stage where improvements in the user interface will benefit Puppy and Linux in general. I am suggesting some ease of use areas. The wireless wizard is functional. It is not obvious what options need to be taken in what order, unless you are experienced with network hookups. Cups install is a similar area of confusion, and duplication of input information.

It may be obvious you need to install an internet connection before running a browser... some disto's automatically connect.

I believe Puppy has at least two audiences, the Technician and the User. In time users become familiar with the terminology the technicians are using... but the curve can be long and arduous. The easier we can make puppy to use and follow the better off we will be.

Little things can make a big difference, having the version number on the screen for example. How many of you have tested and experimented with the MANY versions and levels of beta’s etc., then releases... How many times has someone needed help... and help had to be clarified for what version. Several programs require the mouse to be manually placed in the first field for your input... this is the computers job.. Not the users. Not sure an easy fix.. But in many programs navigating down the cryptic directory tree. First you have to realize to get anywhere you need to select file system, then to root, then to mnt then to the cryptic device name, then to the directory....and finally your file. And sorry to say.. some of the terminology is a but cryptic... such as ROX??

Please set up a group to work on “Ease of Use Issues

[otropogo]

...
It may be obvious you need to install an internet connection before running a browser... some disto's automatically connect.

And not so obvious that you have to reinstall it if you should happen to boot up without a live connection. I still forget occasionally even after years of experience. It certainly doesn't happen in Windows.

Is it possible to load part of puppy into memory to activate the internet, or the desktop, then in the background load the majority of puppy?

That's exactly how TinyCore, available on the Ultilex 5.0.0 Live-CD,works. It configures your display, ethernet card and online connection, and gives you a tool to go online to its repository of apps and choose to either download or install them directly into RAM. So you can boot with TinyCore, install Seamonkey 2.0 via the appware tool, and continue browsing the net with Seamonkey, without having to write anything to or read anything from storage media, other than the initial core apps loaded from the Live-CD.

[mcewanw]

Agreed. Unfortunately, since making the mistake of installing Firedog 1.2, it has become the default browser on 4.3.1 for me, and I can't find a way to replace it with Seamonkey, which was the default when I upgraded to 4.3.1.

So now, if I want the functionality of Seamonkey (to change the text size, zoom, etc.) in viewing a saved html file, I've got to go the tedious "open with" route.

If you know the command to start Seamonkey, you should be able to make that the defaulthtmlbrowser by editing the shell script /usr/local/bin/defaulthtmlbrowser
By default (in Puppy 4.3 at any rate) it contains the lines:

Code: Select all

#!/bin/sh
exec mozstart "$@"

whereas, /usr/local/bin/defaulthtmlviewer contains the lines:

Code: Select all

#!/bin/sh
exec gtkmoz "$@"

On a related note, one way of making the defaulthtmlviewer start up the defaulthtmlbrowser is to change gtkmoz to mozstart in the defaulthtmlviewer shell script, but a better way is probably to use a symbolic link from defaulthtmlviewer to defaulthtmlbrowser as described here:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 620#337878

[otropogo]

...use a symbolic link from defaulthtmlviewer to defaulthtmlbrowser as described here:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 620#337878

Thank you sir. You are a gentleman and a scholar.


******************
Update: seems I was hasty in declaring the problem solved, although my first attempts to view a saved html file with SM by simply clicking on it were successful. Maybe it only worked because SM was already running?



In any case, when I tried the same thing just now, with no browser open, clicking on html files no longer achieved anything. No browsers responded, not even Dillo.

I ended up solving the problem by dragging and dropping the Seamonkey icon into the "set the run action" window for the html file.

Unfortunately, I was also hasty in fixing the problem, and didn't examine and carefully note what was in the window before changing it. So I can only vaguely recall that it seemed to be a URL...I definitely recall the word "sourceforge", where I'd recently looked at some programs.

Maybe this will make sense to someone...

In any case, barring unforeseen side-effects, this last method of selecting the default hmtl viewer seems to be the easiest, as it's a snap to switch between browsers (I know because I grabbed the Opera icon by mistake on the first try).

It makes me wonder what the point is of having a "defaultbrowser" script at all, since it seems to do nothing but determine the default html viewer in a needlessly complicated way?

[Fox7777]

Firefox, Open Office and a light KDE would be desirable. Previously there was a Puppy version like this that was about 200 MB in size and still seemed to run fast on most computers (except perhaps the most ancient).

When Puppy suddenly gets disconnected by a power outage, etc. you get the black screen of death with no clue how to get your desktop back. We need to figure out how to save settings and recover or at least have verbage on the black screen that people need to enter xwin to get their desktop back.

[Fox7777]

Delete

[technosaurus]

Fox - Puppy is targeted toward using the most efficient solution for the most tasks. Kde does little more "useful" stuff than ROX + jwm at more than 50x the size. Same goes for open office vs. abiword + gnumeric and firefox + thunderbird +... vs. seamonkey or opera. Fortunately if you just can't live without any of those it is easy to remaster your own puplet.