(old)Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

More than 50 newcomers to Puppy have been kind enough to post their remarks in the 'Puppy needs your help too' thread in the beginners section - big thanks to all for their contributions.

I've run through all the comments, and two issues stick out way beyond all the rest:

- nearly a quarter of commenters expressed a wish for easier installation.

- despite widespread appreciation of the excellent support provided by forum members, some 50% of newcomers wanted better information/documentation (I read: easier access).

My take is that in spite of all the effort which has gone into producing Puppy documentation, the newcomers' difficulty in finding the right stuff seems to be the number one frustration factor for aspirant Puppy users.

I'm a long-standing and most grateful Puppy user (main linux installation), but one who likes to try out other distros to see how they compare. It's now increasingly easy to run most big distros directly from sfs extracted to hard drive, rather than having to burn discs. I currently have CD Linux Community and Trisquel installed that way, but am always looking for something else. Those with big followings and long track records generally have the better docs. The ones that interest me most however are those that make you think a bit. In my view there are no competitors to Puppy for the range of software included in the standard distro. New users might actually improve their skills by persisting.

I agree with that...however, there are more than those who wish to increase their skill level who might be attracted to, or even in need of, what Puppy has to offer.

For this reason, I feel that the documentation has to be brought up to date, and Flash has made the suggestion that I begin with the Beginner's Help section of the Forum, since I made the mistake of holding my hand up to do something. I'm sure it will help me at the same time it helps others, so my motives are not entirely altruistic, for those of you who do not trust people who seem to want nothing in return.

A strong foundation is the best start to building anything. That's why the documentation is like a Linux University in miniature for me...and for you, if you can see the vision of complete literacy looming in the future.

Of course, that's not the only section of the forum which needs a little attention.

"Do what you can with what you have where you are."

I remember to see that hand going up...
Can I help also? (as if I don't know the answer... nothing asked in return, just patience and spelling correction)

I notice another big newbie problem - lack of search. But searching the forum can be a big problem: sometimes too many topics about the subject. Another times topics too big, with more than 100 pages! (not sure what's worst...)

Let's make a "Puppy Online Library" ( POL ) and copy the must important forum information.

Let's make a "Puppy Online Library"

Let's
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/InstallationNotes

Do it!
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/UsingThisWiki

rubberdragon wrote:New users might actually improve their skills by persisting.

but if I went into Comet and and bought a washing machine; but when I got it home I couldn't find all the controls, or had to go to three different towns (to find the location of which I had to visit still two more) to get all the bits of the operating manual, I'd probably give up and ask Comet to collect it.
I wouldn't be thinking "this'll improve my mind if I persist", especially if I've got a growing pile of dirty clothes that are starting to attract flies.

I'd really think for most people, a desktop operating system is just a commodity. My guessis, people are only starting to become dimly aware that a computer and the OS and apps can be treated as separate things.

A computer is something that sits in the corner to be used for surfing and email and photos and music and whatever. I'll bet a lot of us who hang out here are using computers in a different way -- as ends in themselves.

(Just a few thoughts really, not an argument for or against anything ... )

Lobster wrote:

Let's make a "Puppy Online Library"

Let's
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/InstallationNotes

Do it!
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/UsingThisWiki

May the design be improved??

Sorry that I haven't been keeping up with the original thread mentioned in the first post here, so my suggestion might already have been considered and discounted (apologies).

My experience as a noob trying to get into the puppiverse mindset has been similar to that of a bull in a candyshop. The organisation of the forums to solve peculiar or unusual problems when installations don't go to plan is simply torturous - due to the forums' well-meant and dynamically-organic structure - and isn't helped much by the in-house search engine (e.g., search for 'Puppy Linux 2.20' and it will miss ttuuxx's eponymous thread - the google search is better).
I've been mucking about with Freemind Scholar and I think that its live-linking webpage generation offers a visual 2-D mapping solution for those finding their way through the bewildering range of puppibilities. Freemind (etc) would provide a "choose your own adventure" outline that noobs could 1)see the overall structure of the loading process and also follow connections/threads in more detail that relate specifically to their problem or experience level [reference detail can be furled and unfurled as needed, with a mouseclick], 2)provide an enhanced understanding in how easy it is to 'own' their own custom puppy etc, by providing a visual anchor for the main concepts of puppy, 3) prevent hours of futile searches down fascinating dead ends and cross-threads. You can see where you've been, remember where the solutions were discussed.
I know that this isn't a new idea and that other forums and wikis actually provide Freemind-type mapping structures - just can't remember where I've seen them (where are my maps?).

Puppyt wrote: prevent hours of futile searches down fascinating dead ends and cross-threads. You can see where you've been, remember where the solutions were discussed.

Being an 8 year user of another major Linux distro I'd like to say I've gotten the "forum searching method" down quite well as an excersise in survival. When I found the puppy how to flash videos I was very impressed yet not all applied to the current release. Searching the forums, even in the How To sections, for answers I found many threads transforming into more of a developers' topic thus became confusing. Everyone is super helpful and are right there to answer questions but I don't like to be a pest when I feel there must be the answer somewhere within the site or forum. I think I did bring this up in the beginners response thread, but streamlining the how to threads up to date and without developer type chatter would be great. I'll keep looking for a few things I can help with as a noob, even if its just copying text into a wiki and editing it for clarity.

Guys/Gals, if I may, as I'm often tempted to....

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=29754

There are shedloads of good tips in this thread, but the most commonly used for forum searches is probably

http://www.wellminded.com/puppy/pupsearch.html

If there's anything I can do....?

Aitch

paulh177 wrote:

rubberdragon wrote:New users might actually improve their skills by persisting.

but if I went into Comet and and bought a washing machine; but when I got it home I couldn't find all the controls, or had to go to three different towns (to find the location of which I had to visit still two more) to get all the bits of the operating manual, I'd probably give up and ask Comet to collect it. I wouldn't be thinking "this'll improve my mind if I persist", especially if I've got a growing pile of dirty clothes that are starting to attract flies.

Having been in that situation with a computer, I fully understand and agree.

When I was in college I had an old Compaq EVO n610 laptop. It had 256MB or memory and Pentium Mobile CPU that made it completely unusable for running Windows XP, but I had no money to buy upgrades, and I had to have a computer for college.

I installed Ubuntu 6.06 to the Evo, since it was the only one that was able to use my built-in wifi adapter, but making everything work properly was a hassle painful enough that I got rid of Ubuntu as soon as I could.

I was taking a full load of credit while working a part-time job, so the time I had to sit down at home had to be spent studying. I only had five hours per day for that. Spending three of them trying to figure out how to make the word processor save a word-document in a proper format so I can email it to my professor before the deadline just wasn't an option. The laptop was a tool and I needed it to just work, so I could use it for my school work.

Don't misunderstand me. The Ubuntu forum community was more than helpful and filled with great people who didn't take it the wrong way when I tried to explain that I don't have time to search the forums and wiki, I don't have time to tinker and experiment. Quite the opposite, they understood and were often able to give me a quick and easy solution, based on copy-paste-ing things to a command line. Without their help I would have had an ulcer in less than a week.

But it would have been a lot less stressful for me if the solutions they gave me had been indexed and cataloged and easy for me to find.

omskates wrote:Searching the forums, even in the How To sections, for answers I found many threads transforming into more of a developers' topic thus became confusing. Everyone is super helpful and are right there to answer questions but I don't like to be a pest when I feel there must be the answer somewhere within the site or forum. I think I did bring this up in the beginners response thread, but streamlining the how to threads up to date and without developer type chatter would be great. I'll keep looking for a few things I can help with as a noob, even if its just copying text into a wiki and editing it for clarity.

I also agree with every one of these points. I am still far too new to Puppy to be able to provide help documentation, but if there is anything I can do, I'm happy to help.

Great Post, Aitch - thanks very much for that - Muchly appreciated.

I've used most of those search links before, via the previous puppylinux.org website organizations and I'm aware that improvements have been made to in-house search function over the past year. There's a regular on the forum who provides a link to the googlepuppy search engine in his signature - that's always a helpful reminder and especially useful because it is far superior to the in-house default search, in my opinion - I wonder why the lesser engine is preferred by the site designers.

Searching is only part of the problem. A casual newbie has to scan through reams of posts to find the gems of info that may be applicable in his/her case, and it's very frustrating when a "research project" is interrupted by real-life demands, and geekish (linux lingo and other forms of technical jargon) has to be learned and re-learned to mine the best information. Organisation is the other key area, and its really only the committed newb perhaps who might use Zotero, googledocs etc to structure their on-line searches, creating more or less a dynamic structure as the Manual - in its traditional and linear organisation - is always going to be out of date.

I was hoping to use the puppylinux blogging service to provide a public record of my search travails and a distillation of the key information / solutions /definitions etc drawn from the threads and presented in a visual manner so that others might not have to spend the same time and energy making the same discoveries (read 'mistakes') that I make. Freemind scholar looked the goods in this regard - providing a visual structure, or clickable flowchart, of the latest information and pathways a newb might have to tread to get the most of their recycling, work machine etc. (Dunno what is happening on the Blog service front - haven't seen any notifications on its resumption etc. but then I haven't been searching for details) I just thought that it might be useful as a possible model for a future, online Puppy manual - dynamic, clickable (and therefore tailored to the personal requirements and knowledge of the searcher), and with all the opinions (and alas some of the personalities) of the information-posters stripped away. The visual manual - whether based on Freemind scholar, Vue, eyePlorer or whatever to pull names from hats - would need serious maintaining but could be done so collaboratively [KittyCat and others - AND COULD BE DONE BY VOLUNTEERS without specialist background knowledge] - and would be helped by the traffic viewing data on the various threads indicating what areas that knowledge is most desperately sought.
Just a thought.

I haven't gone away, friends, I'm just balancing all of this between life and work, and strategizing. I continue to think about how it can be done, even today while I was at work (at an assisted living community for elderly people, where I am a cook.) And I've read alot of the documentation, not counting dead links.

I'm happy to see so many eager volunteers, and some of you, like my Portuguese friend, will want to help update the beginners index. It's big, it's awesome, and it should have a team to do it, methinks. But, others of you will want to tackle other things, or approach it in a different way. We will work that out, and soon. Really.

Tomorrow is Saturday in the US. (This for those of you on the other side of the International Date Line, where tomorrow is Sunday, unless you are using the Erisian Calendar). Tomorrow I will tie up some loose ends on the 'how' of it all.

Then, on Sunday, which is Monday down under and in Europe and Asia, I will consider the 'who' of the project. [Anyone who wants to work with me on the beginners index, feel free to PM me. Or if you have any other documentation suggestions, hints, or problems.]

Which means Monday/Tuesday, I will finish both of these tasks and begin the actual project itself.(!)

I needed to set both (or is that three?) of these goals so we didn't just end up talking, talking and never really beginning any real work. (Like that mythical Linux Mint Online Magazine, unless the folks involved are using private emails and setting the World Wide Web on fire with their submissions. Personally, I don't even think they've agreed on a name. I was supposed to submit an article, but this is more important; and I was vague, I didn't really promise I would have one in the first issue...which they believe will be in November...)

And then I foresee the problem of ongoing maintenance of the beginner's help and documentation, but one thing at a time.

After all, I'm not planning on going anywhere anytime soon.

Colonel Schell wrote:And then I foresee the problem of ongoing maintenance of the beginner's help and documentation.......

Maybe we can make google wave a team feature?

http://wave.google.com/help/wave/about.html#video

https://services.google.com/fb/forms/wavesignup/

I'm just not sure what to put in the message to the Google Wave team - something about Puppy's documentation project for noobies/team building/open source......maybe?
Any ideas?
Do we need a team list?
I'm in!

Aitch

I'm also in. And even for translations.
But only after my next week holiday's!

Puppy's jumping-off page is Square One for newcomers seeking information, and I have a strong impression that it is failing to perform as intended in this respect. (e.g. how hard is it for the raw newbie to find 'How Puppy works'? Too hard!)

I'm tiptoeing on hallowed ground here 'cos the jumping-off page is Barry's baby and that means a lot of thought and care went into it.

IMHO the use of lots of funny icons linking to lots of subpages is much more confusing than helpful to the newcomer - and me - and the alternative 4-series starter page although a splendid job may actually have raised the bewilderment level.

OTOH, the simple, clear style which Barry used on the associated developer page is excellent.

I reckon that if it could all be done like that - ideally on one page - our newbie happiness level could go up several notches.

Views?

dogle wrote:IMHO the use of lots of funny icons linking to lots of subpages is much more confusing than helpful to the newcomer - and me - and the alternative 4-series starter page although a splendid job may actually have raised the bewilderment level.

That's easily solved just by labeling the icons...

We have all had the experience of having a project that we love go awry. It can happen in more ways than just becoming outdated, too. Sometimes what we intended the user/viewer is not what they actually experience, simply because they are coming into something cold, with no preconceptions, and we already know what we are trying to say to them.

Yes, the experience is not optimal, and it needs to be tweaked. This would not be my project at this time, but if no one beats me to it, I may get around to it in future.

KittyCat wrote:

dogle wrote:IMHO the use of lots of funny icons linking to lots of subpages is much more confusing than helpful to the newcomer - and me - and the alternative 4-series starter page although a splendid job may actually have raised the bewilderment level.

That's easily solved just by labeling the icons...

The principals of web site usability are still poorly understood (or sometimes ignored) as your observations point out. I.E. The need for putting text below icons or employing more than just four possibilities for navigation.

One name that stands out in the field of usability is Dr. Jakob Nielsen. Every web site designer worth their salt considers him to be the source of best practices for usability. Anyone who would publish a web site would do well to follow his recommendations as closely as possible.

puppyite wrote:

KittyCat wrote:

dogle wrote:IMHO the use of lots of funny icons linking to lots of subpages is much more confusing than helpful to the newcomer - and me - and the alternative 4-series starter page although a splendid job may actually have raised the bewilderment level.

That's easily solved just by labeling the icons...

The principals of web site usability are still poorly understood (or sometimes ignored) as your observations point out. I.E. The need for putting text below icons or employing more than just four possibilities for navigation.

I think you may have missed my point. I was responding to the comment that having funny icons linking to lots of sub-pages can confuse a newcomer that doesn't know what the icons mean. Labeling the icons, i.e. giving them obvious names, would make it less confusing for someone who is trying to figure out what they mean.

One could argue that if the basic principles of usability are so poorly understood then they are not as obvious as they claim to be... but that's the topic for another discussion.