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Puppy Arcade v5 - new files (29 Dec 2009)
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sc0ttman


Joined: 16 Sep 2009
Posts: 2376
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu 24 Sep 2009, 12:28    Post subject: Amiga - Definitely worth inclusion  

Dingo wrote:
Tried Puppy Arcade and played to several games with much fun

I think adding an Amiga Emulator (E-UAE)
http://puppylover.netsons.org/dokupuppy/programs:emulators
could be a good thing

I agree.. When I update the ISOs (after a few more improvements have been made) I will definitely include this one in the new ISOs. It's a bit idiotic that I missed it, actually.. Also ScummVM could be added... Although as far as I know, DosBox will handle most games that ScummVM can play.. But please correct me if I'm wrong, anyone.. I may replace DosBOX with ScummVM in future, but am unsure...
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Makoto


Joined: 03 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Thu 24 Sep 2009, 14:06    Post subject:  

Use both, if you can. They're not the same thing.

DOSbox provides a working DOS environment for certain older games and programs to run. ScummVM is an interpreter, and is only capable of running the data files of certain games (there should be an up-to-date list on the ScummVM Sourceforge site), using the SCUMM engine (mostly LucasArts games), plus some others (like the SpaceQuest/Kings Quest/etc. games).

ScummVM won't support running DOS games, and DOSbox will only run the games ScummVM will if they ran under DOS to begin with, and still have the executable engine to run under DOS - ScummVM doesn't need that, and just runs on the data files from the games it supports. Smile

Edit: Why not include a PC Engine/TG-16 emu? Very Happy (Though I don't know if the Linux PCE/TG emulators currently have support for CD games...)

You might want to replace VBA with VBA-M - VBA-M is being actively worked on, unlike VBA (as Forgotten's not working on it, anymore). I'm not sure of the project's webpage offhand, but you can read discussions about it at http://forums.ngemu.com/vba-m-discussion/ . If I can find the proper webpage, I'll update this post. Edit #3: It's possibly http://vba-m.com/ .

Edit #2: Forgot - here's a place that might have links/downloads to some emulators of interest: http://www.zophar.net/linux.html Their VBA-M page leads back to the above URL, though.

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sc0ttman


Joined: 16 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Thu 24 Sep 2009, 18:18    Post subject:  

Makoto wrote:
Use both, if you can. They're not the same thing. Why not include a PC Engine/TG-16 emu? And you might want to replace VBA with VBA-M

Thanks for the reply.. I'll include both ScummVM and DOSBox in the next versions.. I just thought that DosBox could be used for Scumm games... And I've just tested Hu-Go! (312KB, working fine) for PCE/TG-16 - no frontend, drag and drop roms onto the icon.. It apparently supports CD games...

As usual, I've had no luck at all compiling stuff from source or using .deb packages etc, and that includes VBA-M and quite a few other emulators from zophars domain, all of which I tried a while back.. I personally don't find VBA lacking in any way (except having no GUI), don't know if anyone disagrees...

I have to confess, I'm not old enough to have played some of these systems (pre 1990ish), so haven't looked into their emulators or roms much (there's classic and just plain old!! Smile)..

But I checked out E-UAE as suggested by Dingo.. It works great, but does anyone know a smaller Amiga emulator? E-UAE is quiet large - I'm being fussy though, I know... But I'm trying to keep the smallest version of Puppy Arcade (without office) around 100MB or so, if possible.. So if anyoen can recommend some 'fat' to remove, such as drivers that nearly nobody needs, then I'd love to know..

I may also add NeoCD, which needs a NeoGeo CD inserted and mounted, then it'll work fine once loaded (it's 1524KB inc bios), but only if its games are good (I don't know) and if XMAME doesn't already do NeoGeo CDs Shocked (I think it doesn't!)

And possibly a GameCube emulator would be nice, if anyone knows which is the best... TuxCube? Dolphin? I've no idea..
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Makoto


Joined: 03 Sep 2009
Posts: 1795
Location: Out wandering... maybe.

PostPosted: Thu 24 Sep 2009, 20:44    Post subject:  

Well, DOSBox can be used to play games ScummVM supports (and were loadable in pure DOS), but only if you have the complete game (DOS executable and the data files). Smile

I think there were a few binaries of VBA-M appaearing now and then - but I'm not sure about that, because I think they're still in pre-official release status. It might not hurt to either email the devs or post on the ngemu forum (the one I linked to, above).
I'm not entirely sure, but VBA-M may also have higher requirements than VBA.

Personally, I don't really know of many Amiga emus outside UAE. You might also look into MESS to possibly support a number of systems, including the Amiga, but I'm not sure how well it does support the Amiga, or even how well it runs under Linux. (Like the MAME team, the MESS team (their code is primarily based on the MAME architecture) prefers working on accuracy over all else, so MESS may not always run as well on the older systems. I haven't tried it in years. Embarassed )

I can't account for the NeoCDs - never saw them in a store, actually (though I did see the regular Neo-Geo carts... it's a shame, because I did want to try the Samurai Spirits RPG and... what was the name of that one SS game, again? Samurai Spirits 64? Very Happy ) I don't recall MAME ever announcing support for NGCDs, either.

I don't know about TuxCube, but Dolphin's supposed to be fairly decent. Some problems:
-- New builds are being posted all the time, and things can easily break in one release and be fixed in the next.
-- Not many drives support direct reading of GameCube/Wii discs, so only image support is more or less possible (anyone using it had better have a large HD ready, in other words)
-- Wii support is even more of a work in progress than the GameCube support. (How well does Puppy support Bluetooth? I think Dolphin only supports the Wiimote through BT.)
-- ...and of course, Cube emulation (much less the Wii emulation) will require a very powerful system.

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sc0ttman


Joined: 16 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Fri 25 Sep 2009, 01:51    Post subject:  

Makoto wrote:
Personally, I don't really know of many Amiga emus outside UAE.

I don't even know anything about Amigas other than the name! Does it even have any good games?? I couldn't find one (IMHO).

Makoto wrote:
You might also look into MESS to possibly support a number of systems.

I checked out MESS and decided I could find a collection of smaller emulators, with lower diskpace and system requirements. I only want to emulate the systems with great games, and leave out the others - real enthusiasts can add them if they like.

Makoto wrote:
I can't account for the NeoCDs - never saw them in a store... I don't recall MAME ever announcing support for NGCDs, either.

So I'll add support for NGCDs if the games are worth playing, as I also know nothing about NGCD - maybe I'm too young but I don't think NGCDs ever took off in the UK..

Makoto wrote:
Dolphin's has some problems and of course Cube emulation (much less the Wii emulation) will require a very powerful system.

Would be nice to get a dolphin that doesn't include Wii emulation - the list of dependencies is so big, I couldn't even find all of them! But the high system requirements would make it unsuitable/undesirable for most Puppy users I guess. So I guess NGC emulation is asking too much.
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Dingo


Joined: 11 Dec 2007
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Location: somewhere at the end of rainbow...

PostPosted: Fri 25 Sep 2009, 06:06    Post subject:  

Many good games are available for Amiga. Some games on the top are

pinball (a.k.a flipper)
Pinball Dreams
Pinball Fantasies (also in AGA version, with improved graphics)
Pinball Illusions

ultra-cool pinball games. never made pinball better than these

graphic adventures
The Secret of Monkey Island
Monkey Island 2
Indiana Jones and the fate of Atlantis


Sensible Soccer
Civilization

and so on...

see this site for reviews about Amiga games: http://www.lemonamiga.com/

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sc0ttman


Joined: 16 Sep 2009
Posts: 2376
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri 25 Sep 2009, 07:52    Post subject:  

Dingo wrote:
Many good games are available for Amiga.

Thanks for the link, most enlightening... But aren't most of these games already emulated in Puppy Arcade, using other emulators that are or will be included, such as ScummVM, DosBox and a few (admittedly dodgy) 16-bit conversions (eg Cannon Fodder, Civ on SNES)??

If so, are they better on the Amiga? I've no idea the kind of 'power' the system had... But the Amiga seems to be clearly a better system than Commodore64 and Atari... Did they have mostly the same games?? Because it appears to me that there's not much need to emulate C64 and Atari roms, if you have an Amiga emulator.. Am I correct?
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Dingo


Joined: 11 Dec 2007
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Location: somewhere at the end of rainbow...

PostPosted: Fri 25 Sep 2009, 08:53    Post subject:  

Speaking in terms of quality graphics and music there are games originally created for amiga hardware (chipset AGA and ECS AGNUS) that lose more or less something in conversions for other systems or console, let's play to pinball fantasies to have a valid proof

in my experience, even being products from same computer-factory, Amiga games and commodore's games are not compatibles, but I have tried few commodore games

last, but not least, there are a lot of amiga fans

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sc0ttman


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PostPosted: Fri 25 Sep 2009, 12:31    Post subject:  

Dingo wrote:
there are a lot of amiga fans

Well that is reason enough to include Amiga emulation in the next Puppy Arcade, I guess..
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Makoto


Joined: 03 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Sat 26 Sep 2009, 04:10    Post subject:  

Heh. Yeah, there's a lot of good games on the Amiga and NGCD, as far as I know. Smile

The Amiga was a considerable jump from the Commodore 64/128. I couldn't say by how much, offhand, though. However, it's not really backward-compatible, IIRC. So, you'd still need something to handle C64/128 (and possibly the Commodore systems before that, if you wanted to go that far). Atari is a different company, so the Amiga wouldn't cover their consoles/computers, anyway. Very Happy

Yeah, I'd say Dolphin is probably better left out for the time being. Besides, even if you did manage to compile a version without the Wii support, there would probably be people demanding you put it back in. Rolling Eyes

I thought WINE might also be a consideration, for some of those ROM utilities/catalogers/etc. that don't have a Linux version, and some have claimed to have some success running Windows-based emulators through WINE. But that'd probably add another 100MB to the package. Shocked
(runs)

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Feel


Joined: 07 Feb 2009
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Sat 26 Sep 2009, 12:51    Post subject: Re: Any Feedback?
Subject description: Suggestions or problems?
 

sc0ttman wrote:
There's not been much feedback left on this thread - either noone is interested or you're having no problems.. I'll assume the former for now, until I hear otherwise. Please let me know how this puplet works for you and how you would like to see it improve, if you're using it and have any suggestions. Thanks.



It's not lack of interest, it's lack of time to play with games! But I think there are really minor bugs, they should be fixed but they must not obsess us. This puplet is already a milestone because there are not other LiveCd distros that work this well with emulators. I tried another one some time ago but it was not well built, and it just crashed.
I think it would be a good idea to add an Amiga emulator, but I also think that you should keep DosBox, 'cause there are so many programs that can be used with it.

Scottman, what do you think of setting up a webpage just about PuppyArcade? It can boost new users into using this puplet and into the larger Puppy Linux Universe.
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sc0ttman


Joined: 16 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Sat 26 Sep 2009, 12:56    Post subject:  

Makoto wrote:
you'd still need something to handle C64/128 (and older.. if you wanted to go that far). Atari is a different company, so the Amiga wouldn't cover their consoles/computers.

I realise that these systems are not cross-compatible and are totally separate systems needing totally different roms, but I was wondering if the games released for these systems were mostly just different ports of the same titles.. For example if all the good C64 games were later released on Amiga, there's little point including a C64 emulator - I'd only include emulation of the stronger system, Amiga.

Makoto wrote:
I thought WINE might also be a consideration, ..but that'd probably add another 100MB to the package. Shocked (runs)

I also though about adding WINE, but it'll take up a LOAD of space, as you said already.. I think if anyone wants WINE, then they'll know how to add it themselves.. I've found that Linux emulators are good enough not to need WINE, IMHO..

I want to keep Puppy Arcade as small as possible, making it work for as many people as possible - this means keeping it slim and letting people add any extras they want.

But I do want to include a good ROM manager.. No idea which are good ones.. But I will also include a Multi emulator frontend - so that all roms can be loaded easily from one place.. Something like 'pLauncher 1.2' - which if it works OK when I test it, will be included.
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sc0ttman


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Sep 2009, 13:39    Post subject: Re: Any Feedback?
Subject description: Suggestions or problems?
 

Thanks a lot Feel.. Glad you appreciate it..

Feel wrote:
Scottman, what do you think of setting up a webpage just about PuppyArcade? It can boost new users into using this puplet and into the larger Puppy Linux Universe.

It's in the pipeline.. I'm gonna use this page until it get's another one (if it needs it)

http://cms.web-seller.co.uk/page65.htm

Ignore the weird address, the page above is just one of many on my CMS site - PetchCMS (BLATANT plug)... But actually, if anyone needed a CMS it's a good one, if I don't say so myself.
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Makoto


Joined: 03 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Sat 26 Sep 2009, 16:11    Post subject:  

sc0ttman wrote:
I realise that these systems are not cross-compatible and are totally separate systems needing totally different roms, but I was wondering if the games released for these systems were mostly just different ports of the same titles.. For example if all the good C64 games were later released on Amiga, there's little point including a C64 emulator - I'd only include emulation of the stronger system, Amiga.


I don't think there were many ports of C64 games to the Amiga. Smile (I could be wrong.)

Seriously, though, every system has its fans (I was a C64 user, you know Very Happy), and just because a game may have a port (theoretically speaking) on the Amiga, that doesn't mean people are going to abandon the C64 version. What about those games that aren't on the Amiga? Are those of us with C64 programs going to be unable to run anything in Puppy Arcade? ...etc.

sc0ttman wrote:
I also though about adding WINE, but it'll take up a LOAD of space, as you said already.. I think if anyone wants WINE, then they'll know how to add it themselves.. I've found that Linux emulators are good enough not to need WINE, IMHO..


Well, it was more a matter of the editing utilities, and those emulators here and there that may not have a Linux/Mac equivalent (for some of the more obscure hardware emus). Plus, some devs' primary environment is Windows, and there are cases where their other-system versions (if they do have them) can be not up-to-date with the Windows version, or have fewer features, etc. Not saying it happens often, but I've seen it happen. Sad And, like I said, there are those that think running a Windows emu for something in WINE works better than any of the Linux emus for the same thing. (shrugs)

I'm not trying to argue for definitely including WINE in Arcade, of course. Very Happy

sc0ttman wrote:
I want to keep Puppy Arcade as small as possible, making it work for as many people as possible - this means keeping it slim and letting people add any extras they want.


Right, and I know that's your intent (and behind Puppy as well, as we know). It's just hard to include support for everything (MSX and X68000 support, anyone? Razz Or even the PocketStation/Dreamcast VMU emus... now that's pushing it. Smile ) without risking ballooning Arcade's size.

sc0ttman wrote:
But I do want to include a good ROM manager.. No idea which are good ones.. But I will also include a Multi emulator frontend - so that all roms can be loaded easily from one place.. Something like 'pLauncher 1.2' - which if it works OK when I test it, will be included.


I can't say I know which are good (the managers), myself. Embarassed

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sc0ttman


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PostPosted: Sat 26 Sep 2009, 16:39    Post subject:  

Makoto wrote:
every system has its fans... just because a game may have a port .. doesn't mean people are going to abandon [another] version. It's just hard to include support for everything... without risking ballooning Arcade's size.

Yes, I agree (with the paraphrase that I've created!! Wink) .. And as Puppy Arcade is intended to run on low end systems, I decided the best approach would be to include emulators of only the most popular systems, as long as:
1. The system has lots of good, unique games (if it's popular, it will have..)
2. The emulator has relatively low system requirements
3. The emulator does not take up much diskspace
4. The emulation is accurate and works well

Basically, this means, for future versions, if an emulator is too large, too slow or all the games are crap (or if they're all found on other systems) then that emulator is likely to be left out. Hopefully this will be enough to keep Puppy Arcade small, good on low-spec systems while still playing most of best games ever made!
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