Puppy Linux Discussion Forum Forum Index Puppy Linux Discussion Forum
Puppy HOME page : puppylinux.com
"THE" alternative forum : puppylinux.info
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The time now is Sun 26 Oct 2014, 03:24
All times are UTC - 4
 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects
Puppy-Win32-Installer
Moderators: Flash, JohnMurga
Post_new_topic   Reply_to_topic View_previous_topic :: View_next_topic
Page 2 of 9 Posts_count   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, ..., 7, 8, 9 Next
Author Message
ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul 2009, 04:01    Post_subject:  

seeker wrote:
Sometimes I get the feeling that MS is going out of it's way to put up road blocks for the average Joe wanting to contaminate their computers with another OS.


Your instincts are correct Seeker, read this quite famous article, entitled "He who controls the bootloader"

http://www.birdhouse.org/beos/byte/30-bootloader/

Basically, this "strategy" from Micro$oft, along with strong-arm tactics on computer suppliers and manufacturers, is what killed off the otherwise technically excellent BeOS from IBM, their main competitor at the time. Luckily Linux programmers are clever folk and tenacious with it. As Ive said do not underestimate the importance of what you have created, Micro$oft have always been afraid of a fair fight and youve just brought it to them. Dont be expecting a christmas card from Bill this year Wink

Ive used the installer on about three or four xp-only installs now (single hard disk) and so far each one has been flawless...many thanks for this seeker it really has made life easier. Very Happy

From my own experience, the incentive for people with new Vista computers to switch to using Linux is quite a bit higher than with XP/2000/98. This is because with Vista they have to learn a new interface anyway, plus most are extremely dissatisfied with the Speed. Ive had the pleasure of cleaning many a Vista install for these reasons.

Im picking up a copy of Vista tonight to do some tests with this installer. I think the worst thing that could happen is that people try this installer on Vista and it causes their new computer to "not work". Rolling Eyes I want to check and see what it does. Im hoping there is a check built in to say "This installer is only for 98/2000/XP" and quit out.

Should it include that then I think its safe to put it on general release (www.download.com, www.puppylinux.org etc!). Vista support is a "nice to have" for the moment, but perhaps if you upload some more details of how exactly the installer works, someone else may be able to add the modifications needed to add it.

Just a few minor issues...today I installed XP on an already puppied computer (puppy 4.2.1/2.15ce grub dual boot install whole hard disk) . I used gparted to resize the main ext2 partition and create some free space at the end of the hard disk (it wouldnt let me resize from the beginning), then in the XP installer I told it to install on this free space (hda2 in Linux-Speak). As usual it overwrote the MBR so when I rebooted it automatically started XP (yuk!), and for some reason XP claimed to be using E: as its installed location but apart from that ran no worse than it usually does.

I then installed the Puppy-Win32 installer, hoping that it would restore at least my 4.2.1 access but no luck. It did install a dual boot menu upon startup. The option to start Windows worked fine, but the option to start puppy brought up this error message.

Code:
Windows could not start because the following file is missing or corrupt:
<windows root>\system32\hal.dll.
Please re-install a copy of the above file.


Heres my boot.ini from the said computer (from E:\ on this computer )

Code:
[boot loader]

timeout=30

default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2)\WINDOWS

[operating systems]

multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Professional" /noexecute=optin /fastdetect

e:\grldr="Start Puppy Linux"


and my menu.lst from E:\puppy...Although the loading mechanism doesnt seem to get this far.

Code:
timeout=10

default=0

 

title Puppy-Linux installed 07-08-2009

kernel (hd0,0)/puppy/vmlinuz psubdir=puppy

initrd (hd0,0)/puppy/initrd.gz

boot


Ive also noticed that the installer seems to copy the entire contents of the puppy 4.2.1 ISO to C:\puppy. Its my understanding only initrd.gz, vmlinuz and pup_421.sfs are needed to actually get Puppy Linux to load...although the extra files just take up 119k in this case. These three files loaded to C:\ I think would be acceptable, and them not being in a subdirectory would (I think) enable previous puppy 2 series (without the subfolder feature) to be installed. Im just thinking about Ttuuxxxes 2 series remaster (and Phoenix which I still intend to finish). 2 Series pups are still used, especially on older hardware designed for Win98 where the kernel is more suitable.

I realise this installer will be fine for the people that just have an old computer with XP/2000/98 (by far the most common case), so Im only relaying this information to give you ideas for an updated release. It is already a fantastic piece of work that will open up access to an alternative operating system to far more people than any amount of extra packages, libraries, drivers or kernel updates....bang on the button when it comes to achieving puppies goals/mission. Well done Seeker Very Happy

_________________
Puppy Linux's Mission

Sorry, my server is down atm!
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message Visit_website MSNM 
mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 8368

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul 2009, 10:05    Post_subject:  

Quote:
Im picking up a copy of Vista tonight to do some tests with this installer.

the link I gave is what has to be done for vista..not difficult but different to XP.

mike
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
seeker

Joined: 26 Nov 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Indiana, USA

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul 2009, 16:28    Post_subject:  

ecomony wrote:
I want to check and see what it does. Im hoping there is a check built in to say "This installer is only for 98/2000/XP" and quit out.


Yes it's there. A test run in Vista as a safety check would be good. The install should auto terminate with that warning as long as the installer is using English. If the installer is not using English it won't auto terminate, but it will not attempt to modify the boot process either. This auto termination is a sore point I have with GP-Install. Supposedly if the helper app is compiled as a DLL you can return a value to cause GP-Install to abort. It doesn't work and I had to use an imperfect work-around.

Quote:
perhaps if you upload some more details of how exactly the installer works, someone else may be able to add the modifications needed to add it


You haven't read the source code? It's in BASIC with deliberately simplistic if/then logic. The first helper app called is os-verify. It does what the name implies. The second called is install-puppy. These two are used during installation. The last one, uninstall-puppy, is called when uninstalling. The purpose of each and what they do is in the headers of the source files.

Quote:
The option to start Windows worked fine, but the option to start puppy brought up this error message.


I think you will find that your Puppy is not installed at hd0,0. It installed on the XP partition which from your description would be hd0,1. If that's the case, the menu.lst entries you accepted during the install weren't correct. They default to hd0,0. This is an area that could use some improvement. If there is some win32 code that could pin down the drive and partition that Windows is running on the menu.lst entries could be adjusted automatically. Unfortunately I could not find any. I am pleased to see that my code caught the fact that XP was not installed on C:\ though (e:\grldr="Start Puppy Linux").

You got the message about a missing hal.dll because grub tried to boot something that wasn't where it should be. That failed so windows went ahead with the boot, but the process had bypassed the section of boot.ini where the windows system is defined so it didn't know where <windows root>\system32\ was. So in typical Windows fashion it spat out an incorrect admonishment to re-install the missing file instead of telling you it was lost and couldn't find it's own system folder.

Quote:
Ive also noticed that the installer seems to copy the entire contents of the puppy 4.2.1 ISO to C:\puppy. Its my understanding only initrd.gz, vmlinuz and pup_421.sfs are needed to actually get Puppy Linux to load

That's correct. If it installed all of those files it is because reckrhodes added them to the install project. Smile As you say though, no harm done.

Quote:
and them not being in a subdirectory would (I think) enable previous puppy 2 series (without the subfolder feature) to be installed

True, but you must know that earlier series Puppies will load the first pup_save that they find. Inevitably, sooner or later, it will be a save_file from a different Puppy version. This is why I deliberately restricted it that way. My target group is newbies. They will have no clue if this happens and you can guess what the result would be.

mikeb wrote:
the link I gave is what has to be done for vista..not difficult but different to XP.

Not difficult to do manually as admin if you know the steps, another story to automate the process. It must be possible to auto-install to Vista though. EasyBCD can read and edit the registry entries, but without a Vista OS at hand it would be difficult to hash out.

Thanks for the feedback!
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
ICPUG

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul 2009, 20:19    Post_subject:  

Seeker,

I'm not sure your analysis of Ecomoney's missing hal.dll message is correct.

That message usually occurs when grldr cannot be found. This maybe suggests that e:\grldr is not correct. In fact grldr must go on the Windows partition and I would expect Windows to regard it as C:\ even if Windows is not on hd0,0. If grldr cannot find a Puppy file it usually gives a grub error (error 15 I think).

The main problem with Vista is that it does not use boot.ini so clearly this installer will not work with Vista. I expect your code to check Windows op system will work and stop the installer before it causes a problem.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
ICPUG

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul 2009, 20:26    Post_subject:  

Ecomoney,

You are right that series 2 Puppies would need to install in the root rather than a subdirectory. However, I would not consider making this installer install a Puppy 4 to the root as good idea. Installing to a subdirectory is a really good function as you can isolate different Puppy versions and test without fear.

I think if Puppy 2 is to be perpetuated the init file should be brought up to date to allow a Puppy 2 based puplet to install into a subdirectory - not make Puppy 4 go back to the Puppy 2 way.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 8368

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul 2009, 20:53    Post_subject:  

We all love ecomoney ..just non of us can live with him....
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
seeker

Joined: 26 Nov 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Indiana, USA

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jul 2009, 21:03    Post_subject:  

ICPUG,

During testing I installed to an XP that was on a second slave drive hd1,0 and got the exact same error. Changing the menu.lst from hd0,0 to hd1,0 booted Puppy. We need ecomoney to weigh in on this and tell us what works.

I have read that Windows always regards <windows root> as c:\ but I was sceptical about that and ecomoneys comments seem to validate my doubts. The install-puppy code gets the drive spec from GP-Install as a commandline argument <WINDISK> and that was e:\ in this case. I designed the code to only install to the Windows drive so I do hope it performed as expected.

Also I was under the impression that ttuuxxxs 2 series update could be installed to a directory. Cool That Puppy is looking good.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
ICPUG

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri 10 Jul 2009, 07:46    Post_subject:  

Seeker,

Your comments are interesting and certainly expand my knowledge.

Your situation was slightly different to Ecomoney. You used a separate disk for Windows - Ecomoney uses a separate partition.

One thing crosses my mind. If Windows reports it is on E\: drive in Explorer then this is past the point of ntldr. I wonder if ntldr still thinks it is c and consequently changing e:\grldr to c:\grldr might work for Ecomoney.

I guess if all else fails this would work:

multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2)\grldr

As you say, we need Ecomoney to tells us what works.

I hope you are right about Ttuxxx Series 2 update installing to a subdirectory. I've never seen this mnentioned and I have not looked at it, let alone tested it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
seeker

Joined: 26 Nov 2008
Posts: 89
Location: Indiana, USA

PostPosted: Fri 10 Jul 2009, 12:06    Post_subject:  

Ttuxxx Series 2 update installing to a subdirectory was mentioned here.
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=309737#309737

Been itching to try it myself. Just haven't found the time yet.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
ICPUG

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri 10 Jul 2009, 14:51    Post_subject:  

Thanks Seeker. No wondered you remembered it - you asked the question! I haven't been following the updating 2 series because I like 4.2.1!

The link you gave pointed to vg1 saying that 2.14R allowed a frugal to subdriectory. Did Ttuxxx come back and say he had implemented it in 2.14X? I don't think his forte is messing with scripts - he seems to concentrate on compiling and removing zigbert's stuff (lol).
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul 2009, 09:25    Post_subject:  

Hi All, sorry for the delay, I ve been waiting until my head was fresh before attempting dissection of what happened on this test rig. Ive also had to completely rewire the cybercafe as the centre 60's era wiring was causing problems so Ive spent the last two days there.

As I say, I installed Windows after I installed puppy, which will be a situation far rarer than installing Puppy after installing windows Laughing I will do some tests on the rig that I have here to try and resolve the booting issues in this minority case, and post the successful results.

Seeker, I see your thinking when it comes to using a subdirectory now...you are saying it will allow people to try a variety of puplets out to see which suits them best, a good strategy.

What is obvious though is that the complexities involved in successfully configuring GRUB would be far to much for a non-programmer/average computer user to get their head around.

_________________
Puppy Linux's Mission

Sorry, my server is down atm!
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message Visit_website MSNM 
ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul 2009, 09:49    Post_subject:  

Ok I fixed it Very Happy

What I had to do was this (I will use GRUB notation from now on to avoid confusion), The solution was to change the last line in (0,1)\boot.ini from this

Code:

[boot loader]

timeout=30

default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2)\WINDOWS

[operating systems]

multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Professional" /noexecute=optin /fastdetect

e:\grldr="Start Puppy Linux"


to
Code:

[boot loader]

timeout=30

default=multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2)\WINDOWS

[operating systems]

multi(0)disk(0)rdisk(0)partition(2)\WINDOWS="Microsoft Windows XP Professional" /noexecute=optin /fastdetect

c:\grldr="Start Puppy Linux"


Notice the last line now reads....

c:\grldr="Start Puppy Linux"
not
e:\grldr="Start Puppy Linux"

c:\ doesnt exist on this computer. I dont know the reasons why this would be...but it works. Maybe GLDR "assumes" that whatever partition it is running on currently is "c:\".

Thanks for the tips. I really must now have a go at using the package creator...in a past life I used to be a well heeled but otherwise extremely unhappy Visual Basic programmer, you mentioned it used Basic code?

Sorry I havnt been able to pick up that copy of Vista as yet.

_________________
Puppy Linux's Mission

Sorry, my server is down atm!
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message Visit_website MSNM 
mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 8368

PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul 2009, 10:01    Post_subject:  

Quote:
Maybe GLDR "assumes" that whatever partition it is running on currently is "c:\".

actually it's the windows ntldr that makes this assumption .. just to clarify..

mike

ps maybe theres a hidden restore partition or simply windows not recognising non ntfs/fat partitions.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
ICPUG

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul 2009, 14:25    Post_subject:  

Great - Ecomoney has confirmed that my ramblings yesterday were correct. Now I want to know why Windows reports it is on an 'e' drive now! That's for a Windows forum I guess!
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Sat 11 Jul 2009, 16:42    Post_subject:  

Who knows and who cares...its just a big glob of 0's and 1's. Im glad someone is a little wiser from all this ICPUG Smile

One scenario I know is a lot more common than peole wishing to reinstall windows after Puppy, is the scenario where windows is hosed entirely and just wont boot.

In this scenario, the ability to automatically set up this kind of install....without reformatting and losing peoples music/documents/pictures etc would be very useful to a great many people. Human nature being what it is, often this is the only time people would be willing to try using Linux, if they were forced to choose between losing their data, or a lengthy or expensive backup+format and Windows re-install.

This would need to be done as a script within a livebooted puppy linux though, and is probably the topic of another thread.

_________________
Puppy Linux's Mission

Sorry, my server is down atm!
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message Visit_website MSNM 
Display_posts:   Sort by:   
Page 2 of 9 Posts_count   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, ..., 7, 8, 9 Next
Post_new_topic   Reply_to_topic View_previous_topic :: View_next_topic
 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects
Jump to:  

Rules_post_cannot
Rules_reply_cannot
Rules_edit_cannot
Rules_delete_cannot
Rules_vote_cannot
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
[ Time: 0.1384s ][ Queries: 12 (0.0305s) ][ GZIP on ]