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Newbies - Puppy needs YOUR help too!
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fiskrond

Joined: 13 Aug 2017
Posts: 35
Location: Wales (UK)

PostPosted: Sun 16 Dec 2018, 03:55    Post subject:  

To ease Windows migrants into uncharted territory...

How about a built-in equivalent of Windows' 'Snipping Tool'...

This will enable a far more comprehensible 'How to...' wiki/tutorial with the use of screen-shots. Wiki's and tutorials to be maintained accordingly...

It will also be a lot easier for problem resolution if the user can send a screen-grab to another user for assistance...

Picture worth a thousand words? Smile


Also... keeping in mind Windows migrants..

Some kind of list with Windows terminology on one side.. and (Pup)Linux on the other... that would be a massive help!


Am putting together my own little 'How to..' (importantly.. in layman's terms) as I go... information is no good unless it is understood by the recipient...
hopefully will be of use to someone... Smile
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foxpup


Joined: 29 Jul 2016
Posts: 964
Location: europa near northsea

PostPosted: Sun 16 Dec 2018, 05:23    Post subject:  

You mean something like 'mtpaint snapshot' or 'tas' (Take a Shot from SFR) or ... ? There is always one to find in the submenu "Graphics".
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3539
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Sun 16 Dec 2018, 11:06    Post subject: mtpaint -s as a 'snippet tool'  

As foxpup wrote you can always find one in the Submenu Graphics. When there's more than one (and sometimes even if more than one doesn't show* Smile ) you can call up "Applications Chooser" or "Default Applications" usually on the Submenu Setup and choose which snapshot tool will serve as default.

When you open one of the "Chooser Applications" you may see "mtpaint -s" as a choice even though mtpaintsnapshot doesn't appear on Submenu Graphics. With mtpaint -s set as default pressing the "Print Screen" key will take a snapshot. I don't know if pressing that key also works if another screen capture tools is chosen as I prefer having a snapshot launcher on the Taskbar/panel. Sometimes when I want to take a snapshot, I don't want to fiddle around while the image escapes.

Years ago, 01micko developed a script providing timing choices when mtpaint -s was triggered. I packaged it as a pet, adding a desktop file so that it could be placed in a panel launcher. You'll find it here: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=991180#991180.

Unlike other snapshot tools which require you to make choices before taking a snapshot, mtpaint can immediately* take a snapshot of your entire desktop, and opens it in mtpaint for you to either save that, or select and save only a portion of the desktop to the location of your choosing [default /root]. While in mtpaint, however, you can edit the snapshot including adding Text and such drawings needed to illustrate the significance of what appears.

Delaying the taking of a snapshot enables you to, for example, take a snapshot of your desktop with the Menu open and a Menu-choice selected.

As such, mtpaint with its mtpaintsnapshot component provides a robust snippet tool.

-=-=-=-
* Well, almost: (1) Activate; (2) Click "Now". Pressing "Print Screen" may be faster if doing so has been committed to "muscle memory".

Edit: Just pressed Print Screen and Pup-Snap was activated in Xenialpup64 with FbBox even though mtpaint -s is the default snapshot tool. Pup-Snap was, apparently, set as the default Keyboard short-cut. I'll have to see how to modify that.
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fiskrond

Joined: 13 Aug 2017
Posts: 35
Location: Wales (UK)

PostPosted: Tue 18 Dec 2018, 20:54    Post subject:  

I'm really not trying to be an awkward ***t...

But.. doesn't the fact that that I've had to ask show that (whilst a noob, has spent hrs/days trying to fathom) show that there's a whole load of stuff which is:
i) seriously not obvious
ii) requires better documentation

Please don't burn me.... I'm trying to give an honest perspective from someone (trying) to migrate from Windows.

To both 'foxpup' and 'mikeslr'... can you not see that your responses are going WAY over the head of a Windows migrator?

From an organisational/strategic critique (imagine trying to sell a real £ product.. say a Television):
i) Who are the intended consumers
ii) How easy to set up
iii) How easy to use
iv) The instruction manual for common tasks
etc, etc

Pup is quite simply not user-friendly... but it could be! Smile
Developers have become so entrenched in the backroom stuff they've forgotten the basics... (repeat) if it is not understood by the recipient it is of no use! Wink

Again.. before burning me at the stake... let's not forget the original focus of this thread.... you wanted feedback from newbies in order to improve the user experience... correct?
The way I see it... if you guys are smart enough to make something like this, you are also smart enough to make it accessible to the average man on the street.. yes?

I'll state my hand.... after (wasting?) much time trying to use Puppy I have just installed Lubuntu 18.04... and it is a damn side easier to use OOTB.

C'mon guys... make Pup more user-friendly!
If I go into a burger bar and order a burger I shouldn't have to read up about it... know what I'm saying?

Example : http://www.effectiveeng.com/Tire_Swing.gif

In sociological terms everyone is a transactional 'customer' of another's actions... nothing to do with money.

PM's welcome... difficult discussion on open forum.. Smile
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jeffneedle

Joined: 20 Sep 2013
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Wed 20 Feb 2019, 02:20    Post subject:  

I can relate frustrations with Puppy Tahr. Mostly, why there's so many confusing menu entries.

For example, in quickpet, there's a button to install LibreOffice. But we're told not to use this but instead use the entry in the Document menu entry. Why is the entry in quickpet if you're not supposed to use it?

Thunderbird is in quickpet, and also in the Puppy Package Manager. Why in both places? Does Thunderbird in quickpet even work?

Just my thoughts.
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6502coder


Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 651
Location: Western United States

PostPosted: Wed 20 Feb 2019, 03:00    Post subject:  

Quickpet is not meant to replace the Puppy Package Manager. Quickpet is provided as a shortcut way of getting a limited selection of the kinds of apps that a new user is most likely to want: things like a browser. Of course you can use PPM to get anything that Quickpet offers, but Quickpet is easier. On the other hand, you can't put everything that's in the PPM into Quickpet; that would defeat the whole idea of having an limited selection that's easier to navigate than PPM.

As for why people are sometimes told not to use Quickpet, I don't know the specifics of your case, but it sometimes happens that after a Puppy is released, there will be a change on the app publisher's end that breaks the Quickpet entry. The most obvious example is when the app publisher changes the URL of the download link.
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 12958
Location: S.C. USA

PostPosted: Wed 20 Feb 2019, 13:02    Post subject:  

Quote:
I'll state my hand.... after (wasting?) much time trying to use Puppy I have just installed Lubuntu 18.04... and it is a damn side easier to use OOTB.

What was easier to do in Lubuntu?

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peterw

Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 376
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed 20 Feb 2019, 15:38    Post subject: Is Puppy good for a Windows refugee?  

I was once a Windows XP refugee (must have been about 2004) and I will recount my entry into the world of Linux. I was unhappy with Windows and wanted something better and tried Linux. I tried OpenSuse (bought about 10 CDs with it on) and found it heavy in that it needed a better PC than what I had. I then found Puppy and it was so fast to boot up and never said "no" you do not have the permission that was fantastic. Originally, with Linux, I struggled to get things to work bur persistence pays off. For most work Puppy suited me very well. It, with Fatdog, has been my go to Linux Distro. There are instructions and video guides but you have to search for them or join the forum and ask for help. That is the same for most Distros.

Currently, I use a mix of Distros on various machines. I am not pure Puppy. For my media centre I want MythTV and unfortunately these days (for me) it is easiest to go with a Ubuntu route. I also like a Debian/Ubuntu Distro to get access to their large range of programmes. However, Puppy and Fatdog do virtually all that I want. Whatever Distro you use or for Windows for that matter you have to put the effort in if you want to stretch it away from what its iso.
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jeffneedle

Joined: 20 Sep 2013
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Wed 20 Feb 2019, 17:10    Post subject:  

6502coder wrote:
Quickpet is not meant to replace the Puppy Package Manager. Quickpet is provided as a shortcut way of getting a limited selection of the kinds of apps that a new user is most likely to want: things like a browser. Of course you can use PPM to get anything that Quickpet offers, but Quickpet is easier. On the other hand, you can't put everything that's in the PPM into Quickpet; that would defeat the whole idea of having an limited selection that's easier to navigate than PPM.

As for why people are sometimes told not to use Quickpet, I don't know the specifics of your case, but it sometimes happens that after a Puppy is released, there will be a change on the app publisher's end that breaks the Quickpet entry. The most obvious example is when the app publisher changes the URL of the download link.


Thanks for the response.
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ax.falcon

Joined: 20 Feb 2019
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Wed 20 Feb 2019, 21:04    Post subject: Improvements  

A server version of puppy would be good.

I selected puppy because a) it boots to RAM and b) because it uses hiathawa server instead of apache.

I want to try these things out in a server environment.

Is there a server version of linux I might like to look at or is there another distro that has these things that you can think of?

Thanks.
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foxpup


Joined: 29 Jul 2016
Posts: 964
Location: europa near northsea

PostPosted: Thu 21 Feb 2019, 05:25    Post subject:  

Here is one from Limbomusic:
http://pissekult.com/linux/
There must be more.
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Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 5623
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Thu 21 Feb 2019, 08:15    Post subject:  

@ fiskrond:-

fiskrond (in part) wrote:
Again.. before burning me at the stake... let's not forget the original focus of this thread.... you wanted feedback from newbies in order to improve the user experience... correct?
The way I see it... if you guys are smart enough to make something like this, you are also smart enough to make it accessible to the average man on the street.. yes?

I'll state my hand.... after (wasting?) much time trying to use Puppy I have just installed Lubuntu 18.04... and it is a damn side easier to use OOTB.

C'mon guys... make Pup more user-friendly!
If I go into a burger bar and order a burger I shouldn't have to read up about it... know what I'm saying?

Example : http://www.effectiveeng.com/Tire_Swing.gif

In sociological terms everyone is a transactional 'customer' of another's actions... nothing to do with money.



Mm. I'm guessing that your 'take' on the matter (for Windows 'emigrés', that is) is that FULL documentation should be provided by default.....to the extent that everything can be achieved by locally reading said documentation, and that questions should never NEED to be asked in open forum..??

Have you any idea at all what a mammoth undertaking that would be? MyCrudSoft, doubtless, has an entire section of its paid workforce who spend all day long doing nothing but maintain the 'user documentation'. Everything done in the Linux world is completely voluntary (with rare exceptions); folks work on things in their spare time, as & when they can find it (and the inclination to do so takes them). Most have jobs to go to, family commitments, and like as not other stuff going on which has to take priority.

Remember, too, that even by Linux 'standards' Puppy is very firmly a 'hobbyist' distro. The corollary of which is that users pretty much expect to have to join the Forum and ask questions, change stuff manually, etc.

It's the 'Linux way'.


Mike. Wink

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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 1842
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Thu 21 Feb 2019, 08:49    Post subject:  

@fiskrond:

I guess it partly depends what you are used to. It has been a long time since I really used MS windows, and I hate it when I try - I don't know how to do half the things I'd like to (and can't do many things I like in MS windows anyway). Yes, fine to open up standard apps like word processor from Menu - though even then I often can't find things quickly in MS windows - I've become windows-stupid somehow. I also used Lubuntu for a while; it was reasonably fine till it broke down one day (only reasonably fine because it kept locking me out of directories and files I wanted access to because of non-root perms and so on). When it 'broke', despite knowing quite a lot about Linux, I had a lot of trouble working out how to fix things. Comparative to that, Puppy is really easy - not a lot to learn to maintain it (and such learning becomes pleasurable quite quickly I feel); the Dogs are similarly easy to work with. Of course Lubuntu is Linux-based too so given enough learning time, probably 'okay' but still not as easy as Puppy or Dogs.

wiak
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3539
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Thu 21 Feb 2019, 09:27    Post subject:  

fishrond wrote: "I have just installed Lubuntu 18.04... and it is a damn side easier to use OOTB".

Actually, there's nothing complicated about a Frugal Puppy. You install it. You start it. A first-run dialog opens. You select your settings. You shut down and create a SaveFile or SaveFolder. Having installed various versions of Ubuntu and Ubuntu-spins, including Lubuntu, to USB-sticks and hard-drives the installation to a USB-Stick has about the same degree of difficulty as Puppy, to a Hard-drive is harder than Puppy, and the setup-part --Ubuntu lacking a first-run dialog-- is harder than Puppy.

Where things change --where documentation would be nice, and where this Forum serves the purpose of providing documentation-- is where does the user go from there? With Ubuntu-and-spins, you go where apt and synaptic take you. And that is only to the repositories available to your specific spin, in fishrond's case, Lubuntu 18.04. Want to do something else? There's a forum like this one which will tell you how to add repositories not built-in. Have a problem with that 'no-included-in-our-repo' application: Don't ask us. Have a problem with hard-ware we didn't anticipate: don't ask us. And at some point, your Ubuntu reaches End-of-Life, repositories are closed. If you have a problem: Don't ask us > Upgrade to our supported versions even if your computer can't handle them.

With Puppies, there is no one version, with only authorized repos closely tied to that one version, and documentation about that one version easily available. Puppy is a family of operating systems. There are hundreds: all have much in common, including a Help file on the Menu; each having some degree of uniqueness, each containing a Remaster application, and with access to other Remaster applications, enabling a user to create his or her own unique Puppy. No Puppy is ever abandoned, no computer ever too old for some Puppy. With Puppy, there is no question which someone on this Forum will not try to answer --although, occasionally, the best answer is that 'you won't be able to do that using your Puppy on your computer' perhaps adding "try this Puppy", which with Puppies is easy because they can be run from a folder, not requiring you to wipe your old operating system to make room for it.

Don't let even the complexity scare you. If you limit yourself to those applications offered by your Puppy's Package Manager from only the Puppy repos it accesses, and the applications available for your version of Puppy on the Additional Software Forum, you'll have voluntarily restricted yourself to an environment equivalent to that of Lubuntu's and have as little need to seek advice as when using that operating system.
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Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 5623
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Thu 21 Feb 2019, 11:59    Post subject:  

Sorry to wake this thread up again, guys. I don't often read this one, and scanning back over the last 2-3 pages, it struck me that fiskrond's request is probably not unreasonable.....from the the perspective of an ex-Windows user.

Windoze users are used to dealing with an organisation with a multi-billion dollar budget (read 'bottomless pockets'), and a whole army of highly-skilled, enthusiastic, PAID employees. Upon venturing across to 'the dark side', they bring these expectations with them; they've never been used to anything else, after all.

Naturally, they don't understand why all the thousand and one little 'knick-knacks' that make for a really 'slick' user experience aren't present.....and moreover, why even if they were present, why they don't constantly reflect the very newest hardware and software, the instant it hits the shelves.

Are you gonna tell 'em the truth.....or shall I? To me, this excerpt from 'oneandoneistwo' sums it up neatly:-

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Problem #3: Culture shock

Subproblem #3a: There is a culture
....

"Windows users are more or less in a customer-supplier relationship: They pay for software, for warranties, for support, and so on. They expect software to have a certain level of usability. They are therefore used to having rights with their software: They have paid for technical support and have every right to demand that they receive it. They are also used to dealing with entities rather than people: Their contracts are with a company, not with a person.

Linux users are in more of a community. They don't have to buy the software, they don't have to pay for technical support. They download software for free & use Instant Messaging and web-based forums to get help. They deal with people, not corporations.

A Windows user will not endear himself by bringing his habitual attitudes over to Linux, to put it mildly.

The biggest cause of friction tends to be in the online interactions: A "3a" user new to Linux asks for help with a problem he's having. When he doesn't get that help at what he considers an acceptable rate, he starts complaining and demanding more help. Because that's what he's used to doing with paid-for tech support. The problem is that this isn't paid-for support. This is a bunch of volunteers who are willing to help people with problems out of the goodness of their hearts. The new user has no right to demand anything from them, any more than somebody collecting for charity can demand larger donations from contributors.

In much the same way, a Windows user is used to using commercial software. Companies don't release software until it's reliable, functional, and user-friendly enough. So this is what a Windows user tends to expect from software: It starts at version 1.0. Linux software, however, tends to get released almost as soon as it's written: It starts at version 0.1. This way, people who really need the functionality can get it ASAP; interested developers can get involved in helping improve the code; and the community as a whole stays aware of what's going on.

If a "3a" user runs into trouble with Linux, he'll complain: The software hasn't met his standards, and he thinks he has a right to expect that standard. His mood won't be improved when he gets sarcastic replies like "I'd demand a refund if I were you"....."


-----------------------------------------------------------

Puppy, as stated, isn't even a 'mainstream' distro; it's very firmly in the realms of being a 'hobbyist' one. And one which, at that, was designed, from the outset, to make it as easy as possible to keep ancient hardware alive that most folks would have long-since consigned to the trash....

(Ye anciente Dell lappie is a case in point. We bought it 16 years ago, direct from Dell. I was as green as grass in those days; to me, 128 MB of RAM sounded a huge amount. Little did I know it was barely enough to start the OS, much less actually do anything with it..!!)

(*swap, swap, swap, thrash, swap, thrash, thrash; ummm.....I think ya get the picture..!*)

Just for a giggle, a couple of years ago, I briefly re-installed XP to it, just to see if it really was as bad as I remembered it being. Oh, God.....it was achingly, agonizingly slow. It lasted all of about a week. 'Twas enough for me. Reminded me why I'd tried Puppy in the first place; OK, even Puppy can't turn a P4 into a 'powerhouse' again, but with the RAM upgrade to 1.5 GB, and the swap to an SSD, the old girl's a reasonably usable box once again. She's on her third battery pack, second 'power-brick', and the second, rechargeable CMOS battery.....but that P4 just keeps chugging along. I've a lot of respect for it, I really have!

At least with the usage-pattern mine gets, it'll never suffer from SNDS (Sudden Northwood Death Syndrome)...!

I think the thing most Windoze refugees have trouble with is the more 'bare-bones' approach of Linux. You get a basic install; you want eye-candy, or fancy software, you install it yourself....as much, or as little as you want. What you don't get is a 'corporate' experience dreamed up by a bunch of folks who will never, ever have to interact with or justify themselves to you.


Mike. Wink

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Last edited by Mike Walsh on Tue 05 Mar 2019, 20:58; edited 1 time in total
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