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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Misc
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Mr Henderson


Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 29
Location: Teddington, UK

PostPosted: Fri 22 May 2009, 08:36    Post subject:  

Bruce B wrote:

Quote:
Are we proselytisers?

If so, then more questions, such as: Why? How? When?


I did not say or imply anything about proselytising. However, you may want to look at the forum thread subtitled 'Promote Puppy'.

Quote:
Square pegs in round holes? What possesses people to do
such things?

Certainly, as you suggest, an up to date list of supported
hardware would be nice!


It is difficult to respond to this part of the post as it is not entirely clear whether you agree or disagree with me. We are in agreement that it would be good if information was more accessible, yet you are scornful of people who have problems because the information is not easy to find. Perhaps you are saying that the main problem with Puppy is that it gets used by the incorrect type of person. A defensible position, but if true, I had better go back to Windows.

(Incidentally, I'm not sure that this thread should be in the Beginner's Help section, as it is not offering help to beginners. Puppy Power? Misc?)
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dr_willis


Joined: 24 May 2008
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Fri 22 May 2009, 08:50    Post subject:  

Just a few barks about what i 'see' hanging on irc a bit. (Ok.. so i LIVE on irc, I admit it)

New users in the channel seem to be turned off of using puppy more for the following reasons.

#1 - lack of full multiuser support (they want each faimly member to have their own account just like other disrtos do)

#2 - Confusion in the package manager listings, redundant packages, having to search the forums and irc channels for links to what they consider must have packages.

#3 - Scared by the running as root (related to #1)

#4 - there is no #4 (at least None i can think of)

#5 - i would say lack of good docs.. but I notice that the wiki pages are improveing. Someone has been doing some editing and updates! (Good job!) of course this assumes the new users actually bother to read any docs. (most dont seem to even know they exist) So there is no #5 Smile

Well this is my viewpoint from the trenches. Keep up the good work.
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gerry

Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 946
Location: England

PostPosted: Fri 22 May 2009, 11:45    Post subject:  

Magazine reviews always say that:-
Puppy is tiny, and very fast, and amazingly complete.
But actually, being tiny does mean that Puppy may not do everything that a seven-times bigger distro does. So then the newbie comes onto the forums- and WOW! there seems to be no distinction between users and developers. And there are so many Puppies! Which is the real one? Which is the bug-free stable one? It's terrifying. With most distros, development takes place behind the scenes, and now and again the developers descend from the mountain and release a stable, fully tested, bug-free distro for the users to use. If that's the environment that the newbie feels most comfortable in, s/he will go there. Those that are happy to take part in the process, or to request a feature and see it get incorporated for them, or even just stand on the touchline and keep an eye out for what they want, stay.

Gerry
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tuxr99

Joined: 11 May 2008
Posts: 20

PostPosted: Fri 22 May 2009, 11:52    Post subject:  

Béèm wrote:
It's not because someone don't post that he doesn't uses the product. If he is satisfied and has no problems.

I agree. I myself have been using puppy for a while, but really had no need to post here much, as everything works great. I do most of my "chatting" elsewhere. But I will make a point of coming here more often.
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bugman


Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2131
Location: buffalo commons

PostPosted: Fri 22 May 2009, 12:25    Post subject:  

tuxr99 wrote:
But I will make a point of coming here more often.


please do

that avatar, it's freaking hyponotic

[i will be calling my wife 'dave' before long]

_________________
. . . the machines are clean
and the machines are not corrupted


- lee "scratch" perry
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Max Uglee


Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Fri 22 May 2009, 20:22    Post subject:  

Sorry I am responding to a post two pages back, I just noticed this thread.

popeye wrote:

I have tried Puppy of couple of times in the past but stopped because it was too difficult to get my hardware working (as a newbie I can't always follow the the explanations in the forum or the explanations just don't work as described). Puppy 4.2 is the first version that recognizes all my laptop hardware. Having said this I tried to install it on my new family computer and the wireless card was not recognized. Once I swapped out the new card for the old one all was fine but many newbies would be afraid to do this.


Yea I used Puppy 2.(don't remember) awhile ago and had a very similar experience with a wired PCMCIA ethernet card. No problem in 4.2, Puppy is reallly growing up. 4.2 is almost everything I need and runs much faster than other ditros/oses. The whole hardware/driver thing is very intimidating for new users. I am glad a lot of that is being worked out.

Quote:
Also not having had any formal computer training, using the command line is somewhat challenging. Many of the explanations in the forum make assumptions / expectations that the reader is familiar with Linux commands. For most of us this is not true. Instead what us newbies do is type in exactly the code we find on the forum pages and if this doesn't work we more than likely give up and go back to whatever system we were using before.
True that, after a few years of using Linux I am beginning to understand terminal commands a little (I've learned a few things the past couple weeks trying to repair my Ubuntu install after upgrading to 9.04 Mad ). I think it would be worth breaking the 100MB limit to make things a little more graphical. From what I understand the Geany Vala thing can create really small but nice GUI tools, right?

Quote:
I was lucky and it worked but if it hadn't I most likely would have gone back to Ubuntu.

I have two XP partitions, an Ubuntu partition and a Frugal install of Boxpup 413. One of the xp partitions is for gaming and playing around, the other one I don't even have the network enabled on because i use it strictly as a DAW. I use Ubuntu or Puppy for everything else. I have been trying to use Puppy more and more but my girlfriend (a Mac person without a working Mac) prefers ubuntu. When i get home from work the comp is always booted into Ubuntu. Sorry I'm rambling but my point is she likes it because of the interface and i like it because of the package manager. These are two places I think that Puppy could improve.

Quote:
I am having a hard time adjusting to ROX and haven't been able to get Thunar working for me yet..

I don't like ROX either. Try boxpup 413 if you havent already the default file manager is Thunar. Since it came out I haven't used any other puplets.

Puppy will win in the end. It is ahead of its time.
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mowestusa


Joined: 14 May 2009
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat 23 May 2009, 00:15    Post subject:  

dr_willis wrote:

New users in the channel seem to be turned off of using puppy more for the following reasons.

#1 - lack of full multiuser support (they want each faimly member to have their own account just like other disrtos do)
#2 - Confusion in the package manager listings, redundant packages, having to search the forums and irc channels for links to what they consider must have packages.
#3 - Scared by the running as root (related to #1)
#4 - there is no #4 (at least None i can think of)
#5 - i would say lack of good docs.. but I notice that the wiki pages are improveing. Someone has been doing some editing and updates! (Good job!) of course this assumes the new users actually bother to read any docs. (most dont seem to even know they exist) So there is no #5 Smile


This was an excellent summary of why some new Puppy users might not stick around. I would agree with this list a new Puppy user myself. I believe I have to help solve some of these issues though. I could do some more reading about 1+3 in how to secure Puppy, and why Puppy has chosen to run as root. 2 is a big one for me. Could be fixed with one repo for each major release number so 4 uses 4 packages. If packages from 2+3 work then they could simply be moved into the 4 repo instead of remaining in separate repos. Community packages that work could be in a community repo like Arch. 5 is true of most open source and free software projects, but I will admit that the manual is really a great read for a beginner with Puppy. Also I have found some excellent wiki articles. I would love to see some of the forum how tos turned into wiki articles too. Documentation is an area most of us could lend a hand as well by editing the wiki.
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dogle

Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 330

PostPosted: Sat 23 May 2009, 03:41    Post subject:  

Quote:
I would love to see some of the forum how tos turned into wiki articles too. Documentation is an area most of us could lend a hand as well by editing the wiki.


Dead right, mowestusa. I reckon that could really make a big difference.
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[deXter]


Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat 23 May 2009, 23:00    Post subject:  

My main complaint about puppy is that the default/official build comes with way too many icons on the desktop. That just doesn't have any professionalism and it can even be argued that it slows down startup time and increases memory usage by a bit.

On the other hand, I like how NOP/boxpup is turning out, and ideally the official puppy should be somewhat like it - I mean, professional. Hey, take a look at CDLinux, for example. It's not that big, but atleast it has a decent interface. Interface might seem like low on the priority of things but the fact is it's the looks that catches people's attention first.

And PWidgets only makes it worse.

The other major complaint is that there is no proper repository like in other distros. PETget is a joke. It doesn't even scale to different screen resolutions. If any of you recall, one of the major reasons Ubuntu found success was because it was so easy to find, download, install and manage apps. App management in puppy needs a major overhaul.
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markofkane


Joined: 03 Jul 2008
Posts: 314
Location: Kane, IL USA

PostPosted: Sun 24 May 2009, 06:52    Post subject:  

My 2 cents:

1. When a question is asked, it is assumed that the person posing the question knows the inner workings of Puppy (the answers are too confusing sometimes)

2. If a person cannot figure it out, a lot of times the person is treated like a dummy.

3. I am no Puppy pro in any sense of the word. I know Windows, but Puppy is still a mystery to me. I like Puppy a lot. But when I ask how to do something, I want step by step instructions, or I may not know what the heck I am doing.

4. I left Puppy for awhile after discovering it in 2005, because I did not want to take the time to learn it. I left it again after finding my favorite programs would not work in it (Like UltraHal, Haptek Player, etc)

5. A section for novices would be nice with tricks you can do with Puppy. Wow users.

I want to continue to play around with Puppy and want to make another donation soon. Cool

Just my 2 cents.
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plumtreed

Joined: 07 Dec 2008
Posts: 64
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri 05 Jun 2009, 18:57    Post subject:  

I am very fond of Puppy. I use it regularly and I also ask for needed help on the forum.

Our home 'network' is Ubuntu because it was, for us, the first Linux we tried that worked! I had enough trouble converting 'she who must be obeyed' to Ubuntu so I doubt I could effect a change to Puppy.

From a purely marketing standpoint, I suggest that the name, Puppy, is a choice that conveys a secondary, immature image. A stronger name might change the general feeling and impart a stronger sense of confidence.
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puppyluvr


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 3196
Location: Chickasha Oklahoma

PostPosted: Fri 05 Jun 2009, 21:30    Post subject:  

Very Happy
Quote:
1. When a question is asked, it is assumed that the person posing the question knows the inner workings of Puppy (the answers are too confusing sometimes)

2. If a person cannot figure it out, a lot of times the person is treated like a dummy.


Sorry, I have to disagree...As one of the first to respond to unanswered posts, and one who monitors new posters posts carefully, I find that most of us respond with simplicity and kindness...(Unlike a few other Linux forums)....
We routinely help people, not only with Puppy, and other Distros, but even problems with Windoze too...

Quote:
3. I am no Puppy pro in any sense of the word. I know Windows, but Puppy is still a mystery to me. I like Puppy a lot. But when I ask how to do something, I want step by step instructions, or I may not know what the heck I am doing.


This I agree with, and have harped on myself in numerous threads..
However, I believe the responders mean well, and assume a higher level of technical knowledge than may actually be there...
They are not treating you like a dummy, they are treating you like you are more knowledgable than you are...its kind of a compliment....

As for the rest, Ive said it before, and will again....
You were not born knowing windoze, you took your entire "computing life" to learn what you know....
Puppy has a much shorter learning curve, but it still has one...

I spent 20 years learning , in M$`s convoluted way, how my computer worked...
Only to find out I didnt learn a thing about my computer, just what windoze didnt hide from me...
2 years of Linux, mostly through Puppy, has cleared up a lot, but its like Stockholm syndrome, I thought they were my friends, and wanted to help me, but in the end it was all about the money...
Puppy is removing the brainwashing....My computer is a simpler toy now, and I TELL it what to do, not ASK it if its O.K...
To put it simply, I havent felt like my computer was a toy, that I controlled, since the C-64 / Basic days, since I opened my first DOS prompt..
M$ is like the computer version of a "Buzzkill"...........

My absolute favorite thing....Puppy has never, ever, asked me "Are you sure you want to do this"....(Why do you think I clicked it for, Vista, you @#$%^&*")..................

Its not just Puppy....Its not Linux / BSD / Solaris / Plan9 (lol) / ect...
Its M$...They have the general public convinced that the least secure OS on the planet is the only "safe" way to go....Fear works wonders....

Heres whats needed:
"Tonight on Dateline, (whatever)....
"Linux, what is it, how does it work, and why havent I heard of it before.."
Let `em see who "Big Brother" really is...
I love the "Conspiracy" websites running "Windoze" software....
Morons.....Dont trust the Government, but trust M$ and no other....
"Check out the video"...blah-blah-dot-WMA...LOL.....

Sorry, did I rant again..... Embarassed
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LateDeveloper

Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sat 06 Jun 2009, 03:28    Post subject:  

I can mirror some of the posts on here by saying that when you get someone new to any forums that has people knowledgeable in a technical way, the new people get put off quite quickly by these so called egg heads not coming down out of the clouds and giving simple and coherent explanations to a problem.

Many people, including myself have a good deal of knowledge in that other O.S. but none in Linux, and cba to mess around with command line parameters after so many years of either writing code to avoid that or just so used to a system that works for the main part.

I use an embedded forum as well for writing firmware and you see exactly the same thing on there, some snotty answers by people that know what they are talking about, they are good for the experienced but have no idea on how to actually help people who are just starting out.

You see many people try to get some simple answers to questions and yet these members cannot drop down a few levels to help.

I am an active moderator on a very large forum, over 5,000 members who range from the very experienced to young school kids. I never forget that at one stage I knew little to nothing, so try to explain things in the simplest way possible, even taking it down a few notches if there is still incomprehension.

Forums need people who can accept that not everyone is at the same level as themselves, else the forum will dwindle to an elite few.
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bugman


Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2131
Location: buffalo commons

PostPosted: Sat 06 Jun 2009, 17:34    Post subject:  

anyone who is interested in distrowatch rankings might want to take a peek at this:

http://distrowatch.com/awstats/awstats.DistroWatch.com.osdetail.html

hate to be a bummer, but very few puppies visiting today . . .

_________________
. . . the machines are clean
and the machines are not corrupted


- lee "scratch" perry
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puppyluvr


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 3196
Location: Chickasha Oklahoma

PostPosted: Sat 06 Jun 2009, 18:35    Post subject:  

Very Happy
Whats even sadder is that 51% of the hits on "DISTRO"watch were for Windoze...
Disturbing....
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