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bones01

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 371
Location: Melbourne, Aus

PostPosted: Mon 18 May 2009, 10:16    Post subject: Glad I'm back  

I tried to use dingo last year, but had a truck load of trouble trying to understand why somethings didn't work, and trying to understand how to make them work. The forum was both fantastic and frustrating. Responses were fantastic, and generally helpful, although sometimes I think I needed to ask for clarification. Frustrating because searching the forums is pretty awkward, and I didn't want to post something if there was already an answer in the forum.

Now I'm using ChoicePup and so far it's going well, although I did need to reinstall and start again.

Glad I'm back though.

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dogle

Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 328

PostPosted: Tue 19 May 2009, 16:39    Post subject:  

Good on you, bones01, me too, glad to see you back!

Thanks to everyone for your comments, but especially to newcomers mowestusa and popeye for their clear thinking, valuable feedback and constructive ideas - and for having the bottle to speak up! I think you have brought real value to this thread.

It's a surprise to have responses already in this short thread from three people who were somewhat disenchanted on their first encounter with Puppy, but a good one. I'd just like to disagree, however, with the emphasis placed on 'positive' feedback, if that were to be read as 'favourable' comment only.

The good news is easy to come by; compliments are abundant (after all,this is Puppy!), but the negative feedback, the bad news, is the vital stuff when it comes to improvement. Just imagine what would happen if testers' comments to devs were limited to "Great app!" without the all-important "but it ...."! Mowestusa, could you bear to share the reasons for your discomfort with Puppy the first time round?

People tend to be more reluctant to convey negative feedback, despite its importance (and of course there is always the shoot-the-messenger thing ... look no further than this thread Wink ). Sure, good news in terms of encouragement and thanks is very important too, but positive-only feedback can also have bad effects,for instance if it leads to complacency.

Quote:
[shrug] Nothing to be done.


I thought Lobster was getting quite close to Enlightenment when he said:

Quote:
Once you learn to right click on a file to get some options . . .


(Oops, yes, just seen his post http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=42556&sid=15e291e1c1672811c061c6f6d632ddf8 Lobster, that is pure genius - closing the loop where it really counts - but I mustn't get too sidetracked).

Béèm and davec51 have made very good points but - thy rod and staff, they don't comfort me, no not this time, because the meagre evidence we have is hinting that not all is well (even if, as we'd like to believe, it mostly may be). Need more hard data ...

So, yes, benali72, a survey would be just the ticket - if only it were do-able, but right now I can't see a way. However there may be a workaround, a limited kludge, thinking to use resources as mowestusa rightly advocated. I'll kick off a thread in the beginners' section specially aimed to encourage feedback from those newbies who might otherwise creep away from the Kennels without a yelp. If Lobster and co. are right, and there really isn't a problem, nothing lost. OTOH, if there is, and it's fixable ... watch out, Mr. Shuttleworth!

Thanks again, folks, and I propose to offer appeasement to Lobster by flagging this thread [closed] - right now 'solved' might be a step too far.
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mowestusa


Joined: 14 May 2009
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed 20 May 2009, 12:26    Post subject:  

dogle wrote:
I'd just like to disagree, however, with the emphasis placed on 'positive' feedback, if that were to be read as 'favourable' comment only.


When I think of positive feedback it is not just favorable comments only. However, to fill the "blog" space or the "wiki" space or the IRC room with negatives would not be the appropriate channel. Troubles, design criticisms, and feature requests to developers, should probably stay in the channel that is specific for bug reports. I'm not sure what Puppy uses for bug reporting, tracking, and showing progress on bugs, but that would be the place to air such ideas and opinions. If I go to a forum or IRC channel or read the blogs of Puppy users, and all I see are negatives as a new user I will probably be scared off from trying Puppy or sticking with it. The help channels are where I would encourage us as a community to stay upbeat, respectful, and helpful.

dogle wrote:
Mowestusa, could you bear to share the reasons for your discomfort with Puppy the first time round?


I mentioned it in other threads that I contributed briefly. Basically I didn't stick with Puppy for the following reasons the first time.

1. I did not understand the benefits or the design. I was scared off by the use of root. I didn't understand frugal installs and why they were a good thing. I didn't understand this use of the pup_save file that seemed to be written anywhere on the hard drive. I wasn't sure if Puppy was really designed to be used as more than a live cd, and honestly I have not used the live cd's much in my work. I always seem to have machines that I can install a version of Linux on. So reason #1 was my personal failure to understand how Puppy worked, and why it worked the way it did. I didn't make any effort to read the documentation at the time.

2. I just thought it looked ugly. I know looks are not important especially when you are trying to keep an old computer running and useful, but there are so many options out there for distros, and many of them just looked more "put together". I believe 4.2 has done an amazing job in improving the looks and making it look like it is not just cobbled together of many different parts.

3. The other thing that scared me away from Puppy was the lack of packages and the ease of finding and installing packages. This still might be an issue that forces me to move to another distro like Zenwalk for my older computers. Although it seems like there has been a lot of work to make puppy compatible with other distro packages, I'm still not clear on how to install or find what I want from all of these other sources. I love the number of programs that Linux has to offer at your finger tips, and their repos are just full of great packages. It seems a little odd to have in the PET installer repos for 2,3,4 when I'm using 4.2. Can I safely install and use PETS from versions 2 and 3, or will this cause issues? There area also a lot of community PETS that have been created, but it wasn't that easy for me to find the latest version of VIM for Puppy.

Now I believe #3 is still partially my fault. I need to do more reading, and look at the documentation that deals with installing packages from different distros, and also how I can create my own PET packages. I'm just used to having 9000+ packages at my finger tips in YUM. Smile

Right now, I have Puppy installed on one work machine (one I'm using right now), and one home machine. So far, I'm really enjoying the distro, and I look forward to learning more. I have had only one hardware issue and I have a post in the forum asking for help with that. Otherwise, Puppy has just worked, and helped me to be productive, and keep old machines running like top performers.
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`f00


Joined: 06 Nov 2008
Posts: 809
Location: the Western Reserve

PostPosted: Wed 20 May 2009, 18:18    Post subject: alert status
Subject description: perhaps flea-ing?
 

mowestusa wrote:
… I'm not sure what Puppy uses for bug reporting, tracking, and showing progress on bugs …
Me neither, it has varied from time to time although lately efforts have been made to herd cats (so to speak).

mm, yes `tis a learning experience to puppify state. Most learn judicious application of negative or suggestive comments along the path. The only dumb question is the one not asked, the field of answers is vast to walk upon in mortal time seeking definitive clarity in the fogs bright and dim along the way of sounding brass, chiming winds …

. . as many who stay the course have found
1) basically small, fast and quite adaptable - the up/'down'side is a lot of choice Smile (9000+ would Shocked me)

2) looks are pretty darn much an opinion, imo (here again choice) - generally I prefer nice trim gui that works in a fairly intuitive and consistent manner but can be seduced if features warrant a deeper relationship Wink

3) Of course more reading! Laughing reset status to fuchsia/aqua?

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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11080
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Thu 21 May 2009, 04:38    Post subject:  

Puppy for a while was 10 on the distrowatch.com list.

Now it's (up|down) to number 8

What to make of this change in number from 10 to
number 8?

* the glass is half full
* the glass if half empty
* they didn't make the glass big enough
* someone turned it upside down
* the glass is dry
* the glass is overflowing
* the glass is cracked
* we aren't even talking about glasses

I give

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bugman


Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2131
Location: buffalo commons

PostPosted: Thu 21 May 2009, 08:11    Post subject:  

Bruce B wrote:

What to make of this change in number from 10 to
number 8?


that there is no accurate way to measure the popularity of freely given, freely acquired software

perhaps if everyone running a server were to count iso downloads . . .

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Mr Henderson


Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 29
Location: Teddington, UK

PostPosted: Thu 21 May 2009, 11:26    Post subject:  

Dogle's inital point is worth revisiting: that most Puppy forum members fade away, and this might correspond to members ceasing to use Puppy after an initial trial. While I agree with others that forum involvement is probably an inexact marker of Puppy usage, there's an underlying concern here that may be valid. A drop-off in forum involvement could be predicted as Puppy becomes better known, because Puppy will have attracted a higher proportion of people who expect their computer to work with a minimum of effort on their part, who give up on Puppy rather easily when it disappoints them. The present sitation is hard to read, but this might happen in the future. It's a worrying possibilty because it suggests that Puppy's success may be self-limiting: as the number of people trying the OS grows, so too will the proportion of dissatisfied customers. This would damage Puppy's reputation and lead to a drop in interest.

The only suggestion I can make is that Puppy's limitations should be presented to potential users before they even download an ISO. For instance, looking through the forum discussions on wireless cards (an area where I've had a bit of a struggle) it seems that many can only be got working properly under Ndiswrapper. It would be better to explain this clearly, and reassuringly, from the outset. A clear and up-to-date list of problem-free cards would be helpful too. No doubt this would put off some potential users, but it would produce the maximum proportion of satisfied users.
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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11080
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Thu 21 May 2009, 14:09    Post subject:  

Mr Henderson wrote:
Dogle's inital point is worth
revisiting: that most Puppy forum members fade away,
and this might correspond to members ceasing to use
Puppy after an initial trial.

{text cut for brevity}



Are we proselytisers?


If so, then more questions, such as: Why? How? When?

Mr Henderson wrote:
The only suggestion I can make is
that Puppy's limitations should be presented to potential
users before they even download an ISO. For instance,
looking through the forum discussions on wireless cards
(an area where I've had a bit of a struggle) it seems that
many can only be got working properly under Ndiswrapper.
It would be better to explain this clearly, and reassuringly,
from the outset. A clear and up-to-date list of
problem-free cards would be helpful too. No doubt this
would put off some potential users, but it would produce
the maximum proportion of satisfied users.


Why can't people look at the box? If it specifically
mentions supported Windows versions, but doesn't say
Linux, (or Mac) and one wants to use it for Linux, (or an
unsupported Windows version, or ... );

Square pegs in round holes? What possesses people to do
such things?

Certainly, as you suggest, an up to date list of supported
hardware would be nice!

As an alternative, one can visit the prospective vendor
website to see if they dare mention the 'Linux' word on
their website. Maybe they don't even want our business!

Another way, if the purchase is already made, is take
various Linux distributions for a test drive. See which one
works for you, if any.

Full circle to the subject of proselyting, if Puppy
won't work on your hardware, and another distro works, I
think:

Drop the forum a note and state the facts, and say
good-bye.

I don't think I'd let any distribution be my hard luck, not if
another distribution pulled through and gave me the
hardware support I need and want.

( but then in all candor, I'm not having problems, I think
some of it has to do with careful shopping and not stuffing
round pegs in square holes )

~

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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11080
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Thu 21 May 2009, 14:29    Post subject:  

bugman wrote:

perhaps if everyone running a server were to count iso
downloads . . .


So a friend of mine, innocently looking over my shoulder,
noticed a directory called puppy_parts.

So he starts mumbling, "puppy parts, puppy parts!, puppy
parts? . . . "

Nuff already, "Look, I save puppy parts. Well, that's how
it is, now you know."

~

Opps! I almost forgot the moral to the story.

Here it is, just because I downloaded 3.01 doesn't mean
I'm still using it.

~

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n01fu

Joined: 10 Apr 2009
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu 21 May 2009, 14:54    Post subject:  

i'd like to second a lot of what popeye said in his post. I tried and used puppy versions 2, 3 and now 4. I drifted away from v 2 and 3 less because of problems with puppy, but more because i just dont have a good understanding of how linux works and got frustrated trying to run some windows programs i need under wine. I still dont have all of them working under wine, but have taken the dual boot approach and run most of my day to day stuff (web, email, chat) under puppy, and a couple of other programs under the windows side (gpredict, mixw, winaprs).

so for me it's just that my level of understanding of how linux works is much less than my understanding of windows, especially as related to certain programs.

on the other hand, this forum is absolutely wonderful, have found a lot of answers here that helped me stay with puppy, and puppy just runs a lot faster than windows.

I also think that there are a number of puppy users you will absolutley never hear from. Two in particular are my oldest son and duaghter, who both have a dual boot setup with 4.2 & XP home on their notebooks, and who use puppy most of the time. again most of it is for web based stuff and they dont understand linux as well as they understand xph, but that may change over time too.

so maybe the big issue is that people arent just as used to linux as winxp.

idk, just a thought...
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bugman


Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2131
Location: buffalo commons

PostPosted: Thu 21 May 2009, 14:54    Post subject:  

@bruce, @mr henderson, @bruce [again]

right, right, right

you are both right, but swimming upstream against a mighty flow

the dustbin of history awaits you

Laughing

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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11080
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Thu 21 May 2009, 15:21    Post subject:  

bugman wrote:

you are both right, but swimming upstream against a mighty flow


How could I be more off base ! ?

To imagine: I thought it was like a slowly rising tide which
never recedes.

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rarsa


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 3053
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Thu 21 May 2009, 16:24    Post subject:  

My 1.3 cents (woow, I lost 0.7 cents with the crisis!)

There are many ways to read forum numbers, Of course there may be opportunities to improve the forum but I don't think that the goal should be to attract "market share" but to help the ones that jump in.


Don't try to read too much on the raw numbers as we can get totally contradictory conclusions from them:

e.g.

- Puppy works better every time, that's why people don't come and ask questions

- Puppy works worst every time that's why people are not interested in Puppy any more

- The forum used to be friendlier, not people are fighting and that pushes new users away

- The people helping are getting better so users find what they want faster so they don't need to come so frequently

- The people helping are getting worst so users do not find what they want and they stop coming.

In my particular case, I was a prolific poster to the forum for a couple of years.

But then I got busy in other endeavours and found that other people were responding the questions faster and better than me.

I am still a Puppy user, I am still a Puppy advocate but now I rarely need to come to the forum to search for answers and I have limited time to post responses.

What I can tell you is that I visit many forums searching for other answers and I've always marveled at how active and helpful this particular forum is.

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Béèm


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 11782
Location: Brussels IBM Thinkpad R40, 256MB, 20GB, WiFi ipw2100. Frugal Lin'N'Win

PostPosted: Thu 21 May 2009, 16:49    Post subject:  

n01fu wrote:
so maybe the big issue is that people arent just as used to linux as winxp.

idk, just a thought...
Well bear in mind there are people fleeing Vista right now. Returning to XP or eventually trying Linux.
Vista has some nasty things which need a learning curve as well.

Wonder what Windows 7 will be in that aspect.

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bugman


Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2131
Location: buffalo commons

PostPosted: Thu 21 May 2009, 17:16    Post subject:  

Bruce B wrote:
bugman wrote:

you are both right, but swimming upstream against a mighty flow


How could I be more off base ! ?

To imagine: I thought it was like a slowly rising tide which
never recedes.


and i was imagining "a shaft of gold when all around is dark"

Wink

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