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Sweetness and Light
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Bruce B

Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11488
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Fri 15 May 2009, 22:32    Post subject:  Sweetness and Light
Subject description: Honest intellectual discussion - Puppy's Stated Goals
 

Ecomoney,

Over the course of time, I've noticed users complaining
that an earlier version of Puppy supported all their
hardware, then a newer release didn't support some aspect
of it. Maybe a NIC, soundcard, video adapter, or whatever.

After a sufficient quantitity of reports where people have
gone back and forth between versions and found only the
previous version works. I conclude a dropping of hardware
support in areas as versions.

If this is true, I have problems with these expressed goals.

(i) it will just work, no hassles

(ii) your revision, it will just work, no hassles, objective
is a work-in-progress!

I would rather say to the user, "Stay with the version that
worked. If support was dropped, don't even expect it to be
put back in." (There's probably nothing to look forward to
for your hardware, dropped is not likely to be included
again).

Bruce

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Bruce B

Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11488
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Sat 16 May 2009, 01:21    Post subject:  

Ecomoney,

Question for you, is Puppy friendly for Linux newbies?

If not, how so?

Unnecessary reference here if you're interested. Link

Bruce

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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Sat 16 May 2009, 08:13    Post subject:  

Greetings to you Bruce Smile

For reference here is puppy's mission statement (concise version)

* Puppy will easily install to USB, Zip or hard drive media
* Booting from CD, Puppy will load totally into RAM so that the CD drive is then free for other purposes
* Puppy will be extremely friendly for Linux newbies
* Puppy will boot up and run extraordinarily fast
* Puppy will have all the applications needed for daily use
* Puppy will just work, no hassles
* Puppy will breathe new life into old PCs


The and for clarification the "it will just work, no hassles, objective
is a work-in-progress! " are Barrys Words (not my revision) which I have seen him tag onto the end of the mission statement. You can see this via this google search.. I certainly wouldnt wish to change/add anything about Puppy's goals, and I think that it is very important they are remembered, especially as Barry is retiring. Perhaps this will be an opportunity to look at Puppy's existing mission with fresh eyes.

Older Hardware
If we can avoid the redmundesque "Im sorry your hardware is too old, you must upgrade" then we must. We already do a retro version of puppy with a previous kernel. It seems that this retro kernel is not retro enough. As well as the speed decreases that have been reported in newer Puppies (which need the updated kernel for newer hardware) then there is a strong case for an officially maintained "very retro" Puppy.

Puppy Phoenix which has the older 2.6.18.1 kernel, will hopefully fill this gap, and make much older computer usable again with puppy.

There is a lot of software/drivers already compiled for this kernel, and many of the pseries and other usability applications that have been developed recently can be "backported" to it. When designing it, I will also be employing a more "linux/newb centric" approach, and will need the feedback from yourself and Beem/others that help out regularly in the user support sections.

Im looking forward with having more constructive discussion with you BruceB

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Bruce B

Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11488
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Sat 16 May 2009, 10:08    Post subject: Re: Sweetness and Light
Subject description: Honest intellectual discussion - Ecomoney v Bruce B
 

Ecomoney

Bruce B wrote:

Over the course of time, I've noticed users complaining
that an earlier version of Puppy supported all their
hardware, then a newer release didn't support some
aspect of it. Maybe a NIC, soundcard, video adapter, or whatever.

{relevant text cut}



I didn't mean this as anything to do with 'retro'. Neither
was I referencing anything to do with 'retro' which may
have less hardware support.

I'm talking about Puppy version releases dropping
hardware support. I don't know keywords to search for to
show a few cases.

So, will you accept it at face value?

===============

As far as this . . .

Bruce B wrote:
(i) it will just work, no hassles

(ii) your revision, it will just work, no hassles, objective
is a work-in-progress!


I attributed (ii) to you, because the only place I've seen it
worded that way was in your postings. Now I understand
where the attributions belong.

Bruce

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DaveS


Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 3726
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat 16 May 2009, 12:29    Post subject:  

I hope you dont mind me joining in here, but I have been through a number of Puppy versions now, and have experienced some of the hardware issues you discuss. Two points: first, mistakes get made. So OK, mistakes get recognised and fixed, always going to happen. Secondly, but much more serious: somewhere along the line a self imposed limit of 100 MB has crept in. OK. Hardware constantly evolving and profiles being added, same with software. So must the iso size, or stuff HAS to be left out. Is the 100 MB thing now harming this distro? I think so .............
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Burn_IT


Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 3702
Location: Tamworth UK

PostPosted: Sat 16 May 2009, 12:41    Post subject:  

I suspect the 100Mb limit is a target to aim for NOT a strict limit.

It is there to encourage efficiency and thought about which packages to include;
partly so as to NOT include non-essential parts of packages for space reasons, but also that smaller is quicker.

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DaveS


Joined: 09 Oct 2008
Posts: 3726
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat 16 May 2009, 12:47    Post subject:  

Burn_IT wrote:
I suspect the 100Mb limit is a target to aim for NOT a strict limit.

It is there to encourage efficiency and thought about which packages to include;
partly so as to NOT include non-essential parts of packages for space reasons, but also that smaller is quicker.


Understood. But that only works for as long as full functionality can be maintained. As more hardware support gets included, the iso must grow some.

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Bruce B

Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11488
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Sat 16 May 2009, 18:43    Post subject:  

You guys should certainly feel welcome to join in. No reason Ecomoney and myself couldn't discuss things privately, if we wanted. It's pubic forum.
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Béèm


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 11775
Location: Brussels IBM Thinkpad R40, 256MB, 20GB, WiFi ipw2100. Frugal Lin'N'Win

PostPosted: Sat 16 May 2009, 19:29    Post subject:  

Well the subtitle Ecomoney v Bruce B was kinda deterring.

Well I agree with DaveS that full functionality should be maintained through out puppy versions.

But how far goes a version?
Is puppy 2 a continuation of puppy 1?
Is puppy 3 a continuation of puppy 2 which is a continuation of puppy 1?

Is Dingo still puppy?

Is Deepthought still puppy?

Is Woof still puppy?

In my opinion, yes.
So I expect previous hw is still supported and new hw added.
I suppose this is done through newer kernel's, but compiling them in such a way previous hw is still in there.
I expect the window manager to be still JWM and no other one added like ICEWM.
This doesn't exclude that other WM's can be added as an option.

Two illustrations of my hw issues.

FireWire (1394)
Having such an interface on my laptop and my desktop, I wanted to take benefit of IP over 1394. Support started to come, I think around 2.x and Nathan tried to help to get it working. I think in 3.x I got support for it and Dougal helped to get the interface device recognized in the network wizard.
It wasn't an issue in 4.x but in 5.x I found that Woof alpha 6 didn't support the 1394 anymore. In Woof alpha 8 support is back, but the network wizard doesn't recognize automatically the device.
These are things which make me feel uneasy. But as Woof is in the alpha phase still, it could be an excuse, but still.

Medion MD8818 sata HDD's
Not seen by puppy 2 and 3 and somewhere in the 4.x the first HDD was recognized, but not the second one. When Woof (upup) came with kernel 2.6.29.rc7 I saw to my great pleasure, the second HDD was seen also. I stayed in that euphoria until the change to kernel 2.6.29.2 (Woof upup alpha 7) No joy to boot Woof, probably because the HDD's aren't seen anymore.
So again I feel uneasy. The puppy I had isn't my puppy anymore.

Now I wonder to what extend do I have a solid base to work with Linux (puppy) with my equipment?

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Bruce B

Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11488
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Sat 16 May 2009, 20:30    Post subject:  

Béèm wrote:
Well the subtitle Ecomoney v Bruce B was kinda deterring.


Yeah, Béèm, if it just pops up out of nowhere. In this case
there is an earlier beginning. Then before that an earlier
beginning.

I think it is all friendly and in good spirit, however it looks.

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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 11249
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sat 16 May 2009, 23:00    Post subject:  

Béèm wrote:

I expect the window manager to be still JWM and no other one added like ICEWM.


Hi Beem you should try to understand something, Them Icewm packages I have made have been downloaded over 1000 times, It one of the most installed applications that puppy has that and browsers,.
The package I made for 4.2 was about the size of 1 theme durring 2.15 era, That package had 4 themes,icewm,the shutdown menu, parcellight clipboard manager, blinky, freememory applet,absvolume. Heck when you compared it to plain JWM+clock+blinky+freememory applet it was about 250kb larger. The package was around 600kb way smaller than Gnumeric, which In all the years I've been using Linux, never did I ever use Gnumeric, most people don't, a heck of a lot more people install IceWm and other WM than use gnumeric, But every release we have Gnumeric. Icewm and JW gave the users a unique look at linux and how you can make things easy, at one time installing Icewm was a pain, now I have it down to restartX, or in 4.2 one click.lol Just try not to be so hard on IceWm, its a great alternative to JWM and people really like it. Look at the IcewmVsJWM theme exchange for example
Jwm total views --->93996
Icewm total views --->86819
They are almost the same and JWM has been default in puppy since the start. A heck of a of people like it. And being such a small package why not offer it ?

You mentioned about puppy versions, well puppy hasn't had a real version since series 2,
Series 3 was based on Slackware binary base.
Series 4 was based on T2 packages
Series 5 is based on numerous other distro's
Series 1+2 were hand crafted by Barry, That was a purebred Puppy days, Thats when Barry used to say Puppy was built from scratch,
But puppy is still unique, in it own way,
Lets look at Dpup
Dpup has 668 Debian packages and 165 puppy packages, The puppy part is like custom scripts/gui/xorg/seamonkey/kernel/ etc. It still has the puppy feel when you boot it, etc. So It might not be a purebred, but it a heck of nice mix breed. Wink

Oh ya I read on the forum you had sata issues way bay with earlier puppies did you ever figure it out? I'm currently updating one, and would like to be able to boot with my sata dvdrw, works fine with my ide dvdrw but not the sata.

have a good day
ttuuxxx

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Bruce B

Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11488
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Sat 16 May 2009, 23:57    Post subject:  

ttuuxxx wrote:

like it. Look at the IcewmVsJWM theme exchange for example
Jwm total views --->93996
Icewm total views --->86819


ttuuxxx,

In 2.17.1 I made a couple themes for myself.

In 4.00 JWM changed as well as the default theme. I
thought it was so good, I didn't bother to improve on or
look for more themes.

Bruce

215CE that was really pretty!

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Bruce B

Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11488
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Sun 17 May 2009, 03:33    Post subject:  

ecomoney wrote:

Older Hardware
If we can avoid the redmundesque "Im sorry your
hardware is too old, you must upgrade" then we must. We
already do a retro version of puppy with a previous kernel.
It seems that this retro kernel is not retro enough. As
well as the speed decreases that have been reported in
newer Puppies (which need the updated kernel for newer
hardware) then there is a strong case for an officially
maintained "very retro" Puppy.


I don't know if I can accommodate you on the
redmundesque, the word has only been used three times
by one person on the entire Internet. As of this post it
will have been used by two people. I get the honor of
being number two thanks to you.

Not that I care about the frequency of the usage, but I
don't know what redmundesque means.

---------------------

Changing subject

I think a lot of people are using Puppy as an easy way to
see what Linux is about.

For example, installing it on old boxes and laptops. Also
the use of the USB stick is common, maybe on newer
machines. I think in large measure because users don't
want to interfere with Windows.

-----------------

As far as kernel versions being the factor, I don't
know
for a certainty. I'm tempted to think the
compile options are the bigger factor.

I also wonder: If Barry wants to distribute with two
kernels, why not put them on the same CD?

Pick your kernel at boot time - I've seen this with other
Linux. If distribution bandwidth and storage space is a big
factor, there seems an advantage to doing it that
way. How many people double download, wonder?

Summarizing:

What are the opinions?

Is it more kernel version or compile options
(trying to keep it small and fast)?

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moogsydodong


Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 81
Location: Tagum City, Davao del Norte, Mindanao, Philippines

PostPosted: Sun 17 May 2009, 04:01    Post subject:  

Question

what is happening in puppy???
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Béèm


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 11775
Location: Brussels IBM Thinkpad R40, 256MB, 20GB, WiFi ipw2100. Frugal Lin'N'Win

PostPosted: Sun 17 May 2009, 05:37    Post subject:  

@ttuuxxx,

I understand your technical explication as a developer about puppy 2, 3, 4 etc.. but a lot of people don't. The only see puppy and don't bother what is under the hood.

I know ICEWM is your baby and I did use the EZpup it was called then which gave ICEWM as an extra. Well this is the approach I personaly prefer, but I won't take it to a fight to the death with you. Wink

As for the sata support, kernel 2.6.29.rc7 was the first one to support the HDD's. 2.6.29.1 as Barry compiled it, was doing ok as well. The HDD's are on a VIA technology controller and putting the controller in RAID or AHCI is not an option as Windows don't boot anymore then.

If your sata device is on this type of controller you are in the same situation as me. My CD devices are on another IDE controller so I can use them.

Now he has compiled a 2.6.29.2 and I can't even boot from it. (upup alpha 7 and Cool

As far as I know, dpup is at 014, which didn't support my second HDD as it's kernel is lower then 2.6.29.x

So if there is a dpup higher then 014, I am eager to test it.

Good day to you too.

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