Bad Habbits Windows Users bring to Linux (not just Puppy)

[enhu]

when you say

#10 - POWER OFF - DONT! - properly shut down the system via the menus. This is true for windows also.. but often people get bad habbits..

dyou mean i should not use Menu > Shutdown > Power off Computer?

really new to linux itself and the english isnt my thing. so can you explain please

[bugman]

when you say

#10 - POWER OFF - DONT! - properly shut down the system via the menus. This is true for windows also.. but often people get bad habbits..

dyou mean i should not use Menu > Shutdown > Power off Computer?

really new to linux itself and the english isnt my thing. so can you explain please

no, it means that you should only use Menu > Shutdown > Power off Computer

the original sentence is slightly confusing . . .

[bob_v5]

Thanks for the rar thing mikeb, (not tested it yet, but I guess it will work.) Thanks for putting up with my slightly drunken rant everyone else!
I dont have people (my stepkid) nagging me for msn because he installs it himself. And a load of other bad software. And then gets upset when his computer is slow and I cant be bothered to reinstall for him. silly boy. Im just glad I dont have to share a computer with this self proclaimed uber 1337 haxor.

[mikeb]

Thanks for the rar thing mikeb, (not tested it yet, but I guess it will work.) Thanks for putting up with my slightly drunken rant everyone else!
I dont have people (my stepkid) nagging me for msn because he installs it himself. And a load of other bad software. And then gets upset when his computer is slow and I cant be bothered to reinstall for him. silly boy. Im just glad I dont have to share a computer with this self proclaimed uber 1337 haxor.

no probs.....and 2 viruses in 5 minutes was my one and only experience of the official Msn client.....

mike

[Max Uglee]

If you have a problem, just ask. If you have a suggestion, just suggest. Forget "Customer Support." With Linux you get Community Support.

With customer support you get left on hold for an hour only to talk to a "technician" who reads you the same *.hlp file that you just went over 50 times yourself. When they realize that they can't help you it must be a problem with something else (never their product). Now you're on the phone with company B who only points the finger at something else or back at company A. Your only option is to spend even more money on a different product and keep your fingers crossed.

I used to think "If it's free it must suck." WRONG. I wish I would have learned this a long time ago. Firefox was my first clue. Then came Open Office. Then some of Google's software. I put Firefox on my girlfriends Mac and she preferred it to Safari. I thought about it and wondered how a free program could be so good compared to projects that get worked on by highly paid teams of programmers. I tired Linux and it all became clear.

One of my favorite books is "Power vs. Force." It basically is about how there are "fields" of power in the universe. They are much like magnetic/ electric fields (you can't have one without the other). To be happy you must align yourself with a positive field, once you are part of it you just make it stronger. A community that enjoys helping each other out is a positive thing and therefore is real Power. A company run by somebody that wants to get as much money as possible no matter who they must layoff or put out of business is a Force. Sure, there is a small field created by a team working together but they are all motivated by $$. Let's say one guy goes off to work for another company to get more money. Now he works at company B which is just another weak force motivated by greed. Now there are two smaller negative fields competing with not only each other but the much more Powerful field of open source. They may create some turbulence but they can never win. Eventually many of these programmers will realize this and will work towards something to help people(making the field even stronger) and become happier doing this "charity" work. Others see this and the field continues to grow.

Force never beats Power. No one is happy because they are rich. Helping people will always make you happy. All people really want is to be happy. Being part of something that does nothing but good will make you truly happy. Being part of a cutthroat corporation that cares about nothing but profits will not. It is the same idea as enlightenment and karma. You can apply it to anything.

Wow. that just kind of came out .

My point is that open source/free/GPL will win in the end. It used to be if you wanted a graphical desktop you had to buy a Mac or Window$. Look where we are now. These people want to help you because they can and it makes them happy. M$ wants your money and will only help you if you give them more of it.

[mikeb]

Wow. that just kind of came out

Well I for one am glad it did.....now floating around on a well comfy positive field

mike

[steve_s]

Max Uglee: that was great! Well said...

Yeah, if you are sitting in the Windows world, it is sort of a baffling mystery how free software exists. But if you read a little bit of Richard Stallman, then look at Linus Torvald, then start to discover the whole FOSS community, suddenly it all comes clear and you realize that there is a whole other world out there that is free and helpful and existing just as Max Uglee described...amazing.

I still have the hardest time convincing people that Windows isn't the only thing out there no matter how logical it all is...I don't have as much a problem with Windows itself per say as I do with the fact that most people don't even realize there are alternatives...

[TheAsterisk!]

The people who expect Linux to be simple, point-and-click like Windows probably don't really use Windows all that well, as well. A lot of its heavy-lifting isn't point-and-click on the desktop, either. Heck, even parts of the control panel, which is firmly GUI work, can terrify the average Windows user.
With this in mind, I don't think most poor users have brought in bad habits from Windows so much as they just have bad habits for computer use, and it shows under many OS's, Linux included.
Like the whole issue of shutting down the computer with the power button: it isn't a bad Windows habit, since it shouldn't be done there either, it is just a bad computer habit.

There seemed to be a lot of hubbub over tree view file browsing in previous posts, but I've personally never felt a need for such a view, under any OS, so long as I can make the file browser display the full path somewhere. What do others find advantageous to a tree view, I wonder? Just curious.

[Sylvander]

Regarding "tree view":
1. People absorb information best from visual information.
"A picture is worth a thousand words".

2. A tree view is like a roadmap...
Or a view of the landscape from high in the air above.
You can expand the tree as much as you like to have a visual display of the structure/makeup of the tree and all its branches.

3. The mind is very good at memorizing visual images and thus understanding the significance of the components of those images.
[Provided there is no "mind blindness" = the inability to understand what is being seen]

4. Another example is family tree programs that provide visual displays of family/ancestor/descendant information visually in tree form.
In the past I've helped people find family tree info...
Relatives they didn't know existed...
Half-brother etc.
Part of my seemingly uncanny ability to find information and people...
Was down to RECORDING ALL INFO in a tree form in a family tree program, so that it was later very quick and easy to find and understand and make use of.

5. With computer file hierarchical tree/branch arrangement...
Once you can see and understand the layout...
You can better arrange the places where things are held.
And are then better and/or more easily able to find things.

6. I call it "compartmentalization".
If I want to find something, I have at least a rough idea of where it's likely to be.
And with a tree view it's really easy to get there.
Then because of the hierarchical branch system and naming that I use...
The naming tells me where I should go to find the item for which I'm searching.
Or else I use the search facility if I think that will be quicker.
See screenshots below.
e.g.
C: = sda1 = Windows OS + Programs + registry [no data files].

D: = sda5 = Latest personal data files that you might want to transfer to a new PC, and you wouldn't want to lose when you restore C:.
[OE emails, Windows address book, Firefox profile, IE files, My Documents, Password Vault backups, Windows Desktop]

E: = sda6 = Music, program installation files, portable programs, ISO's for bootable disks.
Do you notice a pattern or system of categories in use?

F: = sda7 = Movies, images, temporary storage.

sda8 = Spare Linux partition; seldom used.

sda9 = Ubuntu partition; seldom used.

[Bruce B]

I also think understanding the tree is key to gaining
control and mastery of the computer. Windows or Linux

We have a Linux tool called 'tree', but not included with
Puppy. Here is the output of /etc. Note how it helps to
see how the directories are structured

Code: Select all

[/etc] tree -dn
.
|-- WAG
|-- X11
|   |-- app-defaults
|   |-- wmconfig
|   `-- xkb
|       |-- compat
|       |-- compiled -> /var/lib/xkb
|       |-- geometry
|       |   `-- ibm
|       |-- keycodes
|       |-- keymap
|       |-- rules
|       |-- semantics
|       |-- symbols
|       |   `-- pc
|       |-- torture
|       `-- types
|-- cups
|   |-- certs
|   |-- interfaces
|   `-- ppd
|-- default
|-- fonts
|-- foomatic
|   `-- direct
|-- gadmin-rsync
|-- gtk-2.0
|-- gxine
|-- init.d
|-- opt
|   |-- qt4
|   `-- samba
|       `-- private
|-- pango
|-- postinstall.d
|-- profile.d
|-- rc.d
|   `-- init.d -> ../init.d
|-- sane.d
|-- software
|   `-- init.d
|-- ssl
    |-- certs
    |-- misc
    `-- private
45 directories
[/etc] 

[Bruce B]

The find command which is included with Puppy will also display the tree in a different format


[/] find /etc -type d | sort
/etc
/etc/cups
/etc/cups/certs
/etc/cups/interfaces
/etc/cups/ppd
/etc/default
/etc/fonts
/etc/foomatic
/etc/foomatic/direct
/etc/gadmin-rsync
/etc/gtk-2.0
/etc/gxine
/etc/init.d
/etc/.java
/etc/.java/.systemPrefs
/etc/opt
/etc/opt/qt4
/etc/opt/samba
/etc/opt/samba/private
/etc/pango
/etc/postinstall.d
/etc/profile.d
/etc/rc.d
/etc/sane.d
/etc/software
/etc/software/init.d
/etc/ssl
/etc/ssl/certs
/etc/ssl/misc
/etc/ssl/private
/etc/WAG
/etc/wwasher
/etc/X11
/etc/X11/app-defaults
/etc/X11/wmconfig
/etc/X11/xkb
/etc/X11/xkb/compat
/etc/X11/xkb/geometry
/etc/X11/xkb/geometry/ibm
/etc/X11/xkb/keycodes
/etc/X11/xkb/keymap
/etc/X11/xkb/rules
/etc/X11/xkb/semantics
/etc/X11/xkb/symbols
/etc/X11/xkb/symbols/pc
/etc/X11/xkb/torture
/etc/X11/xkb/types
[/]

[mikeb]

Hmm what about a tree view of a realistic setup which scrolls several pages to go down 4 levels? Even in windows c:\windows will in itself go off the page in explorer.

so long as I can make the file browser display the full path somewhere.

Now that's sensible..I have it in the rox title bar......
One path line is much, much, much easier to see/comprehend than 6 monitors worth of scroll
I could post a screen shot of a real system tree view but would be making this thread messy and confusing.

I put down my case and wander off into a world of free simplicity

mike

[Sylvander]

Sometimes in Windows I will highlight a partition or [main?] folder and use "Numlock + *" to totally expand everything under that folder [all the sub-folders].

That would typically run to much more than 4 windows/levels.

It's then possible to quickly scroll down to very quickly get an idea of just how much is held [and normally unseen] in all those sub-branches.

So far I haven't found a way of doing this in Xfe.

[mikeb]

Theres a windows version of gdmap which is really useful
http://windirstat.info/
useful for...

It's then possible to quickly scroll down to very quickly get an idea of just how much is held [and normally unseen] in all those sub-branches.

Otherwise I think konquerer does it from my jaded memory...in fact its recommended for that 'windows' experience

mike

[Sylvander]

Below are some screenshots taken by "Captura" of a display by "SpaceMonger" [run under WINE] of the internal HDD, BoxPup partition space usage.
This kind of info could tell you [graphically and numerically] the amount of space being used by various Puppy components.
The bigger the rectangle, the greater the space being used.
I believe it also gives a DYNAMIC display.
i.e. If in Windows you send some items to the Recycle Bin, you can see the items shrink and the bin grow larger as the items transfer.
It is possible to magnify [zoom in] to display GREAT DETAIL, so you can see the individual names etc of all items, but I don't want to take this too far.
These screenshots below are different PARTS of a magnified portion of the bottom of a single display window.

[TheProphet]

For a non-graphical but still usable tree, pipe it to less.

tree | less

This is, for me, handiest when using a .deb package as opposed to an .rpm in RedHat or SuSe.

Or using an .rpm in knoppix, ubuntu, puppy...

which doesn't always work smoothly, SuSe used to use for instance the /mnt directory to tell you where drives are, RedHat uses /media now.

Knoppix uses /media now, and puppy still uses /mnt

A lot of the files that end up in /etc in Knoppix will end up in /opt in puppy.

And vice versa.

that leads to a few problems with the PATH variable and even the alien (package manager translator) doesn't always catch it.

Windoh!$ kind of makes it difficult for "average end user" to find the correct path.

For some unknowable reason, Microsoft has a problem with a bunch of disgruntled ex-employees who can write a quick kludge program which will find any file in the tree, in a 512kb file that's mostly padding... (several lines of ....................................................................................................
....................................................................................................
to make it the required 512 kb size which works on every version of DOS and ntfs) but these programs are usually called "viruses".

It's a corporate nightmare M$ visited upon itself.

If they had an open source installer that worked that well and that easily, then people would make key generators quickly, easily and legally, M$ wouldn't be able to sell their product for more than it's worth.

Instead they generate a lot of bitter enemies who know how to make the key generators, and the viruses, quickly, easily and illegally.

This is bad for M$, no tears wasted on that at least from me.

It's worse on the people who buy their products and have their property (data and even hardware) destroyed.

I could say that the biggest advantage Open Source has over that corporate model is:
it virtually eliminates the Pathologically Mad Disgruntled Ex-Employee syndrome.

But it takes a long time to type it and even longer to say it aloud.

So I won't.

[TheProphet]

Ummmm does window$ not have two types of file mangers that are mirrored in some versions of Puppy?

Code: Select all

type                   Window$              Puppy

tree view            Windows             xfe (215CE Alpha)
                           Explorer              uXplor (215CE Alpha)
         
folder view        My Computer       Rox

As I have not upgraded from 215CE Alpha until now I do not know what other versions of Puppy had either xfe or uXplor between 215CE Alpha and 4.20. I noticed that although neither is in 4.20 by default uXplor is available in the petget package manager from the 2xx series repository. there may be another alternative that I don't know about already installed though.

In any case as window$ refugees will have been used to using "My Computer" where is the problem???
When I migrated to Puppy 1.0.5 it did not take me long to realise that the filing cabinet icon labelled "Rox" must have been the linux equivalent of "My Computer". I now know it is only one of many.
Surely if a dumb bus mechanic in the colonies of Australia could work that out in less than a minute surely "Proper" British Ladies and Gentlemen will have no trouble at all.

Wow, you have dumb busses that need repair? Kewl.

All joshing aside, there's a double-paned file manager for DOS command line (eliminated in XP to their great detriment), Norton Commander, and variants of it like Laplink and File Maven.

Which are very roughly equivalent to Midnight Commander.

File Maven actually works in Windows but doesn't have nearly the web-browsing capacity that MC does.

Works great for finding files on the Windows tree though.

To me it comes up easier to just pop in a Linux live cd, boot it, mount the Offending Partition (usually M$, I don't know why) and browse it with MC.

Konqueror and GNOME Nautilus work "similar" to Windows explorer, just better is all.

I'm fairly certain there's a Konqueror dotpet available and just checked, it comes pre-installed in TeenPup.

[steve_s]

Xfe from this thread has a good tree view also...I use it when I'm trying to set up something more winxp ish (that isn't a tree view screenshot, but it does give an idea of what xfe looks like...check ttuuxxx's thread at the top of this post for more screenshots of xfe)...

[bob_v5]

For some unknowable reason, Microsoft has a problem with a bunch of disgruntled ex-employees who can write a quick kludge program which will find any file in the tree, in a 512kb file that's mostly padding... (several lines of ....................................................................................................
....................................................................................................
to make it the required 512 kb size which works on every version of DOS and ntfs) but these programs are usually called "viruses".

It's a corporate nightmare M$ visited upon itself.

If they had an open source installer that worked that well and that easily, then people would make key generators quickly, easily and legally, M$ wouldn't be able to sell their product for more than it's worth.

ummm, what? Is that where the serial codes are hidden? Or have I missunderstood? Also, I'm pretty sure that ntfs can handle smaller files than 512kb, and certain that dos can.

I dont understand what you mean when you say that key gens being legal would help microshaft. Are key gens even illegal?

While I'm here, can someone recomend a file manager with tree view. Preferably in a nice windows idiot friendly package that has the file associatons and stuff set up already.

[Sylvander]

Install the SUPERB Xfe from the instructions/links here.

Lots more Puppy goodies in that thread.
Start at the last page and work back to the beginning looking for interesting stuff.