Bad Habbits Windows Users bring to Linux (not just Puppy)

[Sylvander]

1. I'm fairly new to Puppy.

2. In Windows I had come to know Windows Explorer rather well, and had developed a hierarchical system of naming sub-folders that I thought worked rather well.
e.g.
/mnt/sda6/Installation File Sets/win2kpro+/Programs/Installed,used/TeraByte/ImageforDOS/060714 1st version
See screenshot below.

Each folder layer can have multiple sub folders.
Hence it is always possible to add yet another sub-folder that leads to a whole new sub-branch.
And that sub-branch could have yet more sub-branches leading off.

Very flexible.
Extendable.

But IT IS EXTREMELY NECESSARY to be able to have an overview of the whole system.
A bit like flying over the landscape so as to understand the full extent of the lay of the land.
Snapshots of small regions of the file system just don't cut it.

3. Which is where Xfe does the job well in Puppy.
But wait!
Xfe does much more than Windows Explorer [WE]!
I can do things with ease in Xfe that I cannot do so easily in WE.
e.g. See Defragged & restored C: in 12 min using SyncBack [and/or Xfe] in BoxPup

4. "a tree view with the linux file system would actually be confusing to new linux users... /etc /proc /sys /usr /sbin.....and so on as apposed to , erm... c: then windows / program files /docs + settings"
I am aware that Linux is going to be different...
And provided the rewards justify the expense of effort I'm prepared to invest that effort so as to get the return.
Puppy is the 1st Linux distro [out of quite a number that I tried] where I felt the returns justified the investment.
I'm prepared to gradually come to know and understand the layout of the Puppy file system.
But again...
Only if the returns justify the investment of effort.
Actually, I'm the only member of my family prepared to do it.
My wife and 3 children all feel they have better things to do.
Or they think it took enough effort to learn Windows, and why not just stick with that?
I was demonstrating it to my wife yesterday, and she thought it looked OK, but will she actually use it instead of what she knows?
.

[mikeb]

Well I was speaking from a beginners perspective...start from the dumbed down 'my documents' which is what windows first presents to new users...rox does exectly the same. Most casual windows users don't seem to use/be interested in a folder tree....the 'what's that' expression gives it away....

As for advanced use I found the linux file structure much more organised and logical and being so browsing with rox remains simple and instinctive. I also organise my subfolders/drives so things can be found...and theres a lot of it .
By the way I'm not keen on puppy additions like my-rox-apps etc...first thing to go to keep that home folder free and funky.

Confusing.....to me thats documents and settings in virtual folder land....looses me every time...then I need a tree view.

Just my view and the family seem to handle it just fine

mike

[Max Uglee]

While Puppy needs users are a bit *smart*, other distro (Like Ubuntu) are for stupid people, so, is better train yourself and became a bit *smart* than still a stupid people

why I say Ubuntu users, just leaved Windows are stupid people? read some words written by Ubuntu users on a forum in reply to my anwser :

- Q: I need a pdf editor
- A: (my answer): use multivalent pdf browser
- Q: Not found in repository, are you sure about name?
- A: (...)

you can see, Ubuntu people does not think to use google to find and use multivalent. A puppy user I think may say:

- thanks, I'll look for multivalent (oh it is java based, so I need Java, can you give me a link for java .pet, or .fsf?, otherwise, I'll install a bin package provided by sun or I'll make myself an sfs pack

You cannot judge someone's intelligence based on how advanced their computer skills are. Grammar is obviously not your strong point but I doubt that you are a stupid person. Ubuntu is great for people who want to migrate to Linux. It can do all the things they want to do without all the extra steps needed to do the same thing in Puppy. This is assuming that they have a newer PC. My problem with *buntus is all of the bloat. Woof, I think, will combine the best of both worlds.

Thanks max, I have been using Ubuntu for a year and really like it, I just recently installed Puppy and I am learning as I go. Out of the box it worked almost perfect, what didn't work was easily fixed with help of everyone in the forums...That is how I learn, things.... I think anyone who uses any Linux is learning more about computers than the average Windows user. I know I have.

and just to add, Puppy is way cool, I am enjoying it as much as my Ubuntu machines.

@ medicalystoned

Have you ever tried #! (Crunchbang) Linux? It it based off of an Ubuntu minimal install and uses more lightweight but fully functional stuff like Puppy does. It uses Openbox for the WM, PCmanfm for the FM, Firefox 3 for browsing, and Deluge for torrents. It also comes with Conky. The big advantage it has over Puppy is that is uses Synaptic. You have full access to the ubuntu repos. It is not quite as lightweight as Puppy though and is really only usable with a full install (the install disc doubles as a live CD). If you want a lightweight Ubuntu I highly recommend it. Don't bother with Xubuntu, it is not much better on resources than Ubuntu or Kubuntu. I love Puppy, it is great for many things in many situations. If it can do everything you want it is probably your best choice. I recommend Crunchbang to anyone who loves Puppy but can't find a .pup they need or have hardware that doesn't work with Puppy but does with Ubuntu.

http://crunchbanglinux.org/

[Max Uglee]

Good article comparing Window$ to Linux.

http://www.michaelhorowitz.com/Linux.vs.Windows.html

[bob_v5]

EDIT 1-- This isn't really on topic, but maybe some of you would lke to read it anyway.

Hi. First I would like to explain that I have been using computers since I was a small boy. I had a C64 for a while, then got a PC with msdos 3.30 when I was about 10. I feel it is important to say this because otherwise linux people tend to assume "linux n00bs" have only used windows. When I had these older systems, using the computer was an activty in itself. Now the computer is a tool as much as a toy. Sometimes I just want to get on with my work, and not mess about getting the OS to run the software I need.
Perhaps the bad habit I have brought from windows is saying to linux people that XP doesnt actually suck that bad! (YUCK, now I feel all dirty, XP really does suck....)
Also this is not an attack on puppy, I have had far worse problems on other linuxes. Like when tried ubuntu, and I was getting sick from the 60hz refresh rate it thought I should use, and I had to spend ages looking for the file to edit to fix it. I would expect there to be a gui thing to fix that. If there was it was well hidden.

"puppy linux is VERY USER FRIENDLY...
everything is just a few clicks away....
the only difficulty I had when I came to puppy is installing it...
I did not know the word boot,boot loader and partition...NOW I KNOW!"

I had a very differnt experience from this. Instalation was easy. Using the OS I find to be extremely annoying. While I feel the underlying OS is good, linux based OSes always lack the polished feel of XP, and I dont mean the way it looks. My fancy CPU was not bought to run the OS. (EDIT 2-- I mean I dont want fancy effects. I like to have colours that suit me)
Here are a few examples of problems I dont think I would of had on XP.

1. I wanted to open a .rar file. I clicked the rar file. The machine asked me if I wanted to create a new rar file. I did not. Ok. Perhaps just a file association thing. I try opening Xarchive from the (Start?) Menu. It gave me an error message. Why is this? I dont think I changed anything, and people keep saying linux doesnt change itself.

2. Installed a theme for GTK. Then installed a similar looking one for JWM. Now the text in rox is too small. The text size is probably fairly easy to fix. Messing with config files doesnt scare me, but its a pain in the ass. I didnt want to spend ages learning which file to edit. I just wanted to change the colours.

3. I installed a new icon set. It looked good. Some icons were missing. Oh well, never mind, I will change back to the default icons. Wrong. The icons are still missing.

4. Installing software. Puppy is actually fairly good for this, but, someone mentioned (indirectly) that expecting software to be easy to run was a bad habit. I disagree. It has been easy on every other system I have used. (Not counting rubbish tapes on the C64)

And on a slightly lighter note....

"As for advanced use I found the linux file structure much more organised and logical and being so browsing with rox remains simple and instinctive. I also organise my subfolders/drives so things can be found...and theres a lot of it .
By the way I'm not keen on puppy additions like my-rox-apps etc...first thing to go to keep that home folder free and funky.

Confusing.....to me thats documents and settings in virtual folder land....looses me every time...then I need a tree view.

Just my view and the family seem to handle it just fine"


Your family handle it just fine now. Watch them when they have to find there stuff after a re-install. I have made a proper folder for each of my household on a differnt partition, whch stays where it is. They refuse to use it. Then complain about lost data.
I think it is because people who actually understand computers prefer a "real" file system. People who just use computers wouldnt know the difference. For example, I'm kinda new at linux, but I know my personal data is on hda4, and nothing but hardware failure will move it, no matter how bad I mess up the OS. (I know that sentence is not entirely accurate, but I dont know how to say it better)

[mikeb]

Your family handle it just fine now. Watch them when they have to find there stuff after a re-install. I have made a proper folder for each of my household on a differnt partition, whch stays where it is. They refuse to use it. Then complain about lost data.
I think it is because people who actually understand computers prefer a "real" file system. People who just use computers wouldnt know the difference. For example, I'm kinda new at linux, but I know my personal data is on hda4, and nothing but hardware failure will move it, no matter how bad I mess up the OS. (I know that sentence is not entirely accurate, but I dont know how to say it better)

Well I/we have the advantage of never using XP so folders have always been real. My system for linux and windows is that there is a data partition (hda5 / D:).....stuff gets stored there and the family make there own folders to suit so regardless of what os is running data is always in the same place and with the same layout. Whatever the setup 'Documents' points there. One place, one layout, fried chicken.
Also I don't get demands for msn and other crap.....some people understand the concept of using a computor rather than being used by it.

First experience of computors...writing programs on a TRS 80 in the radio shack store cause the guys let me...decided computors/software is boring and stuck to electronics.

1. I wanted to open a .rar file. I clicked the rar file. The machine asked me if I wanted to create a new rar file. I did not. Ok. Perhaps just a file association thing. I try opening Xarchive from the (Start?) Menu. It gave me an error message. Why is this? I dont think I changed anything, and people keep saying linux doesnt change itself.

This is because there is no rar handling in puppy because of open source politics. Older puppies had it and you can add it (one file unrar) then its click and open.

2. Installed a theme for GTK. Then installed a similar looking one for JWM. Now the text in rox is too small. The text size is probably fairly easy to fix. Messing with config files doesnt scare me, but its a pain in the ass. I didnt want to spend ages learning which file to edit. I just wanted to change the colours.

3. I installed a new icon set. It looked good. Some icons were missing. Oh well, never mind, I will change back to the default icons. Wrong. The icons are still missing.

gtk2 is a pain in the arse..agreed. Xfce seems to be easier on the handling of fonts...big fat funky and clear no problem.

Ok off to beat up the kids with a laptop ...
mike

[mikeb]

Ok useful post time...here's unrar..pop into /usr/bin and enjoy...

mike

[TheProphet]

How about:

#7. Don't let smart *$$es who will put you down any chance they get discourage you from learning.

In windows, everything runs automatically, whether you like it or not.

In linux, it runs when you want it to.

In windows you ae deprived of the joys of obtuse commands, difficult printer setups, and you get the boredom of installing an application and having it function.

How about something along the lines of "Commands must be spelled correctly .... sloppy keyboard work causes problems."

Example:

Bad Habbits

Example #2:

In windows you ae deprived of the joys

In Linux you are deprived of the joy of the Blue Screen of Death!! and also paying $35 USD to talk to a MicroSux technician who will tell you to either call the $100USD - per - incident hotline for better advice or tell you to buy a newer computer.

Oh, and paying Mr Bill for the B.S.O.D.

That was always my favorite part and I'm sure that someday I'll miss it.

[TheProphet]

Just got on this part from responding to a search (mine) about a dotpet for Orca.

Seriously, for new Immigrants from DOS-Land...

C'mon in, the water's fine!!

My first experience with Linux was from a library book and all it cost me was replacing the book because my niece threw it away (it "looked tacky")

I still have the install disk. RedHat 5.

Now I'm becoming quite the fanatic.

European Football Fanciers have nothing on MY level of fanaticism.

[enhu]

when you say

#10 - POWER OFF - DONT! - properly shut down the system via the menus. This is true for windows also.. but often people get bad habbits..

dyou mean i should not use Menu > Shutdown > Power off Computer?

really new to linux itself and the english isnt my thing. so can you explain please

[bugman]

when you say

#10 - POWER OFF - DONT! - properly shut down the system via the menus. This is true for windows also.. but often people get bad habbits..

dyou mean i should not use Menu > Shutdown > Power off Computer?

really new to linux itself and the english isnt my thing. so can you explain please

no, it means that you should only use Menu > Shutdown > Power off Computer

the original sentence is slightly confusing . . .

[bob_v5]

Thanks for the rar thing mikeb, (not tested it yet, but I guess it will work.) Thanks for putting up with my slightly drunken rant everyone else!
I dont have people (my stepkid) nagging me for msn because he installs it himself. And a load of other bad software. And then gets upset when his computer is slow and I cant be bothered to reinstall for him. silly boy. Im just glad I dont have to share a computer with this self proclaimed uber 1337 haxor.

[mikeb]

Thanks for the rar thing mikeb, (not tested it yet, but I guess it will work.) Thanks for putting up with my slightly drunken rant everyone else!
I dont have people (my stepkid) nagging me for msn because he installs it himself. And a load of other bad software. And then gets upset when his computer is slow and I cant be bothered to reinstall for him. silly boy. Im just glad I dont have to share a computer with this self proclaimed uber 1337 haxor.

no probs.....and 2 viruses in 5 minutes was my one and only experience of the official Msn client.....

mike

[Max Uglee]

If you have a problem, just ask. If you have a suggestion, just suggest. Forget "Customer Support." With Linux you get Community Support.

With customer support you get left on hold for an hour only to talk to a "technician" who reads you the same *.hlp file that you just went over 50 times yourself. When they realize that they can't help you it must be a problem with something else (never their product). Now you're on the phone with company B who only points the finger at something else or back at company A. Your only option is to spend even more money on a different product and keep your fingers crossed.

I used to think "If it's free it must suck." WRONG. I wish I would have learned this a long time ago. Firefox was my first clue. Then came Open Office. Then some of Google's software. I put Firefox on my girlfriends Mac and she preferred it to Safari. I thought about it and wondered how a free program could be so good compared to projects that get worked on by highly paid teams of programmers. I tired Linux and it all became clear.

One of my favorite books is "Power vs. Force." It basically is about how there are "fields" of power in the universe. They are much like magnetic/ electric fields (you can't have one without the other). To be happy you must align yourself with a positive field, once you are part of it you just make it stronger. A community that enjoys helping each other out is a positive thing and therefore is real Power. A company run by somebody that wants to get as much money as possible no matter who they must layoff or put out of business is a Force. Sure, there is a small field created by a team working together but they are all motivated by $$. Let's say one guy goes off to work for another company to get more money. Now he works at company B which is just another weak force motivated by greed. Now there are two smaller negative fields competing with not only each other but the much more Powerful field of open source. They may create some turbulence but they can never win. Eventually many of these programmers will realize this and will work towards something to help people(making the field even stronger) and become happier doing this "charity" work. Others see this and the field continues to grow.

Force never beats Power. No one is happy because they are rich. Helping people will always make you happy. All people really want is to be happy. Being part of something that does nothing but good will make you truly happy. Being part of a cutthroat corporation that cares about nothing but profits will not. It is the same idea as enlightenment and karma. You can apply it to anything.

Wow. that just kind of came out .

My point is that open source/free/GPL will win in the end. It used to be if you wanted a graphical desktop you had to buy a Mac or Window$. Look where we are now. These people want to help you because they can and it makes them happy. M$ wants your money and will only help you if you give them more of it.

[mikeb]

Wow. that just kind of came out

Well I for one am glad it did.....now floating around on a well comfy positive field

mike

[steve_s]

Max Uglee: that was great! Well said...

Yeah, if you are sitting in the Windows world, it is sort of a baffling mystery how free software exists. But if you read a little bit of Richard Stallman, then look at Linus Torvald, then start to discover the whole FOSS community, suddenly it all comes clear and you realize that there is a whole other world out there that is free and helpful and existing just as Max Uglee described...amazing.

I still have the hardest time convincing people that Windows isn't the only thing out there no matter how logical it all is...I don't have as much a problem with Windows itself per say as I do with the fact that most people don't even realize there are alternatives...

[TheAsterisk!]

The people who expect Linux to be simple, point-and-click like Windows probably don't really use Windows all that well, as well. A lot of its heavy-lifting isn't point-and-click on the desktop, either. Heck, even parts of the control panel, which is firmly GUI work, can terrify the average Windows user.
With this in mind, I don't think most poor users have brought in bad habits from Windows so much as they just have bad habits for computer use, and it shows under many OS's, Linux included.
Like the whole issue of shutting down the computer with the power button: it isn't a bad Windows habit, since it shouldn't be done there either, it is just a bad computer habit.

There seemed to be a lot of hubbub over tree view file browsing in previous posts, but I've personally never felt a need for such a view, under any OS, so long as I can make the file browser display the full path somewhere. What do others find advantageous to a tree view, I wonder? Just curious.

[Sylvander]

Regarding "tree view":
1. People absorb information best from visual information.
"A picture is worth a thousand words".

2. A tree view is like a roadmap...
Or a view of the landscape from high in the air above.
You can expand the tree as much as you like to have a visual display of the structure/makeup of the tree and all its branches.

3. The mind is very good at memorizing visual images and thus understanding the significance of the components of those images.
[Provided there is no "mind blindness" = the inability to understand what is being seen]

4. Another example is family tree programs that provide visual displays of family/ancestor/descendant information visually in tree form.
In the past I've helped people find family tree info...
Relatives they didn't know existed...
Half-brother etc.
Part of my seemingly uncanny ability to find information and people...
Was down to RECORDING ALL INFO in a tree form in a family tree program, so that it was later very quick and easy to find and understand and make use of.

5. With computer file hierarchical tree/branch arrangement...
Once you can see and understand the layout...
You can better arrange the places where things are held.
And are then better and/or more easily able to find things.

6. I call it "compartmentalization".
If I want to find something, I have at least a rough idea of where it's likely to be.
And with a tree view it's really easy to get there.
Then because of the hierarchical branch system and naming that I use...
The naming tells me where I should go to find the item for which I'm searching.
Or else I use the search facility if I think that will be quicker.
See screenshots below.
e.g.
C: = sda1 = Windows OS + Programs + registry [no data files].

D: = sda5 = Latest personal data files that you might want to transfer to a new PC, and you wouldn't want to lose when you restore C:.
[OE emails, Windows address book, Firefox profile, IE files, My Documents, Password Vault backups, Windows Desktop]

E: = sda6 = Music, program installation files, portable programs, ISO's for bootable disks.
Do you notice a pattern or system of categories in use?

F: = sda7 = Movies, images, temporary storage.

sda8 = Spare Linux partition; seldom used.

sda9 = Ubuntu partition; seldom used.

[Bruce B]

I also think understanding the tree is key to gaining
control and mastery of the computer. Windows or Linux

We have a Linux tool called 'tree', but not included with
Puppy. Here is the output of /etc. Note how it helps to
see how the directories are structured

Code: Select all

[/etc] tree -dn
.
|-- WAG
|-- X11
|   |-- app-defaults
|   |-- wmconfig
|   `-- xkb
|       |-- compat
|       |-- compiled -> /var/lib/xkb
|       |-- geometry
|       |   `-- ibm
|       |-- keycodes
|       |-- keymap
|       |-- rules
|       |-- semantics
|       |-- symbols
|       |   `-- pc
|       |-- torture
|       `-- types
|-- cups
|   |-- certs
|   |-- interfaces
|   `-- ppd
|-- default
|-- fonts
|-- foomatic
|   `-- direct
|-- gadmin-rsync
|-- gtk-2.0
|-- gxine
|-- init.d
|-- opt
|   |-- qt4
|   `-- samba
|       `-- private
|-- pango
|-- postinstall.d
|-- profile.d
|-- rc.d
|   `-- init.d -> ../init.d
|-- sane.d
|-- software
|   `-- init.d
|-- ssl
    |-- certs
    |-- misc
    `-- private
45 directories
[/etc] 

[Bruce B]

The find command which is included with Puppy will also display the tree in a different format


[/] find /etc -type d | sort
/etc
/etc/cups
/etc/cups/certs
/etc/cups/interfaces
/etc/cups/ppd
/etc/default
/etc/fonts
/etc/foomatic
/etc/foomatic/direct
/etc/gadmin-rsync
/etc/gtk-2.0
/etc/gxine
/etc/init.d
/etc/.java
/etc/.java/.systemPrefs
/etc/opt
/etc/opt/qt4
/etc/opt/samba
/etc/opt/samba/private
/etc/pango
/etc/postinstall.d
/etc/profile.d
/etc/rc.d
/etc/sane.d
/etc/software
/etc/software/init.d
/etc/ssl
/etc/ssl/certs
/etc/ssl/misc
/etc/ssl/private
/etc/WAG
/etc/wwasher
/etc/X11
/etc/X11/app-defaults
/etc/X11/wmconfig
/etc/X11/xkb
/etc/X11/xkb/compat
/etc/X11/xkb/geometry
/etc/X11/xkb/geometry/ibm
/etc/X11/xkb/keycodes
/etc/X11/xkb/keymap
/etc/X11/xkb/rules
/etc/X11/xkb/semantics
/etc/X11/xkb/symbols
/etc/X11/xkb/symbols/pc
/etc/X11/xkb/torture
/etc/X11/xkb/types
[/]