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 Forum index » House Training » Beginners Help ( Start Here)
Bad Habbits Windows Users bring to Linux (not just Puppy)
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Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 3517
Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Mon 25 May 2009, 05:44    Post subject:  

1. I'm fairly new to Puppy.

2. In Windows I had come to know Windows Explorer rather well, and had developed a hierarchical system of naming sub-folders that I thought worked rather well.
e.g.
/mnt/sda6/Installation File Sets/win2kpro+/Programs/Installed,used/TeraByte/ImageforDOS/060714 1st version
See screenshot below.

Each folder layer can have multiple sub folders.
Hence it is always possible to add yet another sub-folder that leads to a whole new sub-branch.
And that sub-branch could have yet more sub-branches leading off.

Very flexible.
Extendable.

But IT IS EXTREMELY NECESSARY to be able to have an overview of the whole system.
A bit like flying over the landscape so as to understand the full extent of the lay of the land.
Snapshots of small regions of the file system just don't cut it.

3. Which is where Xfe does the job well in Puppy.
But wait!
Xfe does much more than Windows Explorer [WE]! Very Happy
I can do things with ease in Xfe that I cannot do so easily in WE.
e.g. See Defragged & restored C: in 12 min using SyncBack [and/or Xfe] in BoxPup

4. "a tree view with the linux file system would actually be confusing to new linux users... /etc /proc /sys /usr /sbin.....and so on as apposed to , erm... c: then windows / program files /docs + settings"
I am aware that Linux is going to be different...
And provided the rewards justify the expense of effort I'm prepared to invest that effort so as to get the return.
Puppy is the 1st Linux distro [out of quite a number that I tried] where I felt the returns justified the investment.
I'm prepared to gradually come to know and understand the layout of the Puppy file system.
But again...
Only if the returns justify the investment of effort.
Actually, I'm the only member of my family prepared to do it.
My wife and 3 children all feel they have better things to do. Sad
Or they think it took enough effort to learn Windows, and why not just stick with that?
I was demonstrating it to my wife yesterday, and she thought it looked OK, but will she actually use it instead of what she knows?
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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 8664

PostPosted: Mon 25 May 2009, 11:34    Post subject:  

Well I was speaking from a beginners perspective...start from the dumbed down 'my documents' which is what windows first presents to new users...rox does exectly the same. Most casual windows users don't seem to use/be interested in a folder tree....the 'what's that' expression gives it away....

As for advanced use I found the linux file structure much more organised and logical and being so browsing with rox remains simple and instinctive. I also organise my subfolders/drives so things can be found...and theres a lot of it .
By the way I'm not keen on puppy additions like my-rox-apps etc...first thing to go to keep that home folder free and funky.

Confusing.....to me thats documents and settings in virtual folder land....looses me every time...then I need a tree view.

Just my view and the family seem to handle it just fine

mike
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Max Uglee


Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Tue 26 May 2009, 18:52    Post subject:  

medicalystoned wrote:
Max Uglee wrote:
Dingo wrote:
While Puppy needs users are a bit *smart*, other distro (Like Ubuntu) are for stupid people, so, is better train yourself and became a bit *smart* than still a stupid people

why I say Ubuntu users, just leaved Windows are stupid people? read some words written by Ubuntu users on a forum in reply to my anwser :

- Q: I need a pdf editor
- A: (my answer): use multivalent pdf browser
- Q: Not found in repository, are you sure about name?
- A: (...)


you can see, Ubuntu people does not think to use google to find and use multivalent. A puppy user I think may say:

- thanks, I'll look for multivalent (oh it is java based, so I need Java, can you give me a link for java .pet, or .fsf?, otherwise, I'll install a bin package provided by sun or I'll make myself an sfs pack


You cannot judge someone's intelligence based on how advanced their computer skills are. Grammar is obviously not your strong point but I doubt that you are a stupid person. Ubuntu is great for people who want to migrate to Linux. It can do all the things they want to do without all the extra steps needed to do the same thing in Puppy. This is assuming that they have a newer PC. My problem with *buntus is all of the bloat. Woof, I think, will combine the best of both worlds.
Thanks max, I have been using Ubuntu for a year and really like it, I just recently installed Puppy and I am learning as I go. Out of the box it worked almost perfect, what didn't work was easily fixed with help of everyone in the forums...That is how I learn, things.... I think anyone who uses any Linux is learning more about computers than the average Windows user. I know I have.

and just to add, Puppy is way cool, I am enjoying it as much as my Ubuntu machines.


@ medicalystoned

Have you ever tried #! (Crunchbang) Linux? It it based off of an Ubuntu minimal install and uses more lightweight but fully functional stuff like Puppy does. It uses Openbox for the WM, PCmanfm for the FM, Firefox 3 for browsing, and Deluge for torrents. It also comes with Conky. The big advantage it has over Puppy is that is uses Synaptic. You have full access to the ubuntu repos. It is not quite as lightweight as Puppy though and is really only usable with a full install (the install disc doubles as a live CD). If you want a lightweight Ubuntu I highly recommend it. Don't bother with Xubuntu, it is not much better on resources than Ubuntu or Kubuntu. I love Puppy, it is great for many things in many situations. If it can do everything you want it is probably your best choice. I recommend Crunchbang to anyone who loves Puppy but can't find a .pup they need or have hardware that doesn't work with Puppy but does with Ubuntu.

http://crunchbanglinux.org/
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Max Uglee


Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Wed 27 May 2009, 18:49    Post subject:  

Good article comparing Window$ to Linux.

http://www.michaelhorowitz.com/Linux.vs.Windows.html
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bob_v5

Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Wed 27 May 2009, 22:24    Post subject:  

EDIT 1-- This isn't really on topic, but maybe some of you would lke to read it anyway.

Hi. First I would like to explain that I have been using computers since I was a small boy. I had a C64 for a while, then got a PC with msdos 3.30 when I was about 10. I feel it is important to say this because otherwise linux people tend to assume "linux n00bs" have only used windows. When I had these older systems, using the computer was an activty in itself. Now the computer is a tool as much as a toy. Sometimes I just want to get on with my work, and not mess about getting the OS to run the software I need.
Perhaps the bad habit I have brought from windows is saying to linux people that XP doesnt actually suck that bad! (YUCK, now I feel all dirty, XP really does suck....)
Also this is not an attack on puppy, I have had far worse problems on other linuxes. Like when tried ubuntu, and I was getting sick from the 60hz refresh rate it thought I should use, and I had to spend ages looking for the file to edit to fix it. I would expect there to be a gui thing to fix that. If there was it was well hidden.

"puppy linux is VERY USER FRIENDLY...
everything is just a few clicks away....
the only difficulty I had when I came to puppy is installing it...
I did not know the word boot,boot loader and partition...NOW I KNOW!"

I had a very differnt experience from this. Instalation was easy. Using the OS I find to be extremely annoying. While I feel the underlying OS is good, linux based OSes always lack the polished feel of XP, and I dont mean the way it looks. My fancy CPU was not bought to run the OS. (EDIT 2-- I mean I dont want fancy effects. I like to have colours that suit me)
Here are a few examples of problems I dont think I would of had on XP.

1. I wanted to open a .rar file. I clicked the rar file. The machine asked me if I wanted to create a new rar file. I did not. Ok. Perhaps just a file association thing. I try opening Xarchive from the (Start?) Menu. It gave me an error message. Why is this? I dont think I changed anything, and people keep saying linux doesnt change itself.

2. Installed a theme for GTK. Then installed a similar looking one for JWM. Now the text in rox is too small. The text size is probably fairly easy to fix. Messing with config files doesnt scare me, but its a pain in the ass. I didnt want to spend ages learning which file to edit. I just wanted to change the colours.

3. I installed a new icon set. It looked good. Some icons were missing. Oh well, never mind, I will change back to the default icons. Wrong. The icons are still missing.

4. Installing software. Puppy is actually fairly good for this, but, someone mentioned (indirectly) that expecting software to be easy to run was a bad habit. I disagree. It has been easy on every other system I have used. (Not counting rubbish tapes on the C64)

And on a slightly lighter note....

"As for advanced use I found the linux file structure much more organised and logical and being so browsing with rox remains simple and instinctive. I also organise my subfolders/drives so things can be found...and theres a lot of it .
By the way I'm not keen on puppy additions like my-rox-apps etc...first thing to go to keep that home folder free and funky.

Confusing.....to me thats documents and settings in virtual folder land....looses me every time...then I need a tree view.

Just my view and the family seem to handle it just fine"


Your family handle it just fine now. Watch them when they have to find there stuff after a re-install. I have made a proper folder for each of my household on a differnt partition, whch stays where it is. They refuse to use it. Then complain about lost data.
I think it is because people who actually understand computers prefer a "real" file system. People who just use computers wouldnt know the difference. For example, I'm kinda new at linux, but I know my personal data is on hda4, and nothing but hardware failure will move it, no matter how bad I mess up the OS. (I know that sentence is not entirely accurate, but I dont know how to say it better)
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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 8664

PostPosted: Thu 28 May 2009, 10:20    Post subject:  

Quote:
Your family handle it just fine now. Watch them when they have to find there stuff after a re-install. I have made a proper folder for each of my household on a differnt partition, whch stays where it is. They refuse to use it. Then complain about lost data.
I think it is because people who actually understand computers prefer a "real" file system. People who just use computers wouldnt know the difference. For example, I'm kinda new at linux, but I know my personal data is on hda4, and nothing but hardware failure will move it, no matter how bad I mess up the OS. (I know that sentence is not entirely accurate, but I dont know how to say it better)

Well I/we have the advantage of never using XP so folders have always been real. My system for linux and windows is that there is a data partition (hda5 / DSmile.....stuff gets stored there and the family make there own folders to suit so regardless of what os is running data is always in the same place and with the same layout. Whatever the setup 'Documents' points there. One place, one layout, fried chicken.
Also I don't get demands for msn and other crap.....some people understand the concept of using a computor rather than being used by it.

First experience of computors...writing programs on a TRS 80 in the radio shack store cause the guys let me...decided computors/software is boring and stuck to electronics.

Quote:
1. I wanted to open a .rar file. I clicked the rar file. The machine asked me if I wanted to create a new rar file. I did not. Ok. Perhaps just a file association thing. I try opening Xarchive from the (Start?) Menu. It gave me an error message. Why is this? I dont think I changed anything, and people keep saying linux doesnt change itself.

This is because there is no rar handling in puppy because of open source politics. Older puppies had it and you can add it (one file unrar) then its click and open.

Quote:
2. Installed a theme for GTK. Then installed a similar looking one for JWM. Now the text in rox is too small. The text size is probably fairly easy to fix. Messing with config files doesnt scare me, but its a pain in the ass. I didnt want to spend ages learning which file to edit. I just wanted to change the colours.

3. I installed a new icon set. It looked good. Some icons were missing. Oh well, never mind, I will change back to the default icons. Wrong. The icons are still missing.

gtk2 is a pain in the arse..agreed. Xfce seems to be easier on the handling of fonts...big fat funky and clear no problem.

Ok off to beat up the kids with a laptop ...
mike
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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 8664

PostPosted: Thu 28 May 2009, 10:44    Post subject:  

Ok useful post time...here's unrar..pop into /usr/bin and enjoy...

mike
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TheProphet

Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Fri 29 May 2009, 03:45    Post subject:  

Max Uglee wrote:
How about:

#7. Don't let smart *$$es who will put you down any chance they get discourage you from learning.

tlchost wrote:
steve_s wrote:

In windows, everything runs automatically, whether you like it or not.

In linux, it runs when you want it to.



In windows you ae deprived of the joys of obtuse commands, difficult printer setups, and you get the boredom of installing an application and having it function.


tlchost wrote:
How about something along the lines of "Commands must be spelled correctly .... sloppy keyboard work causes problems."

Example:

Bad Habbits


Example #2:

tlchost wrote:
In windows you ae deprived of the joys


In Linux you are deprived of the joy of the Blue Screen of Death!! and also paying $35 USD to talk to a MicroSux technician who will tell you to either call the $100USD - per - incident hotline for better advice or tell you to buy a newer computer.

Oh, and paying Mr Bill for the B.S.O.D.

That was always my favorite part and I'm sure that someday I'll miss it.

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He who skydive without parachute, jumps to own conclusion.
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TheProphet

Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Fri 29 May 2009, 03:56    Post subject:  

Just got on this part from responding to a search (mine) about a dotpet for Orca.

Seriously, for new Immigrants from DOS-Land...

C'mon in, the water's fine!!

My first experience with Linux was from a library book and all it cost me was replacing the book because my niece threw it away (it "looked tacky")

I still have the install disk. RedHat 5.

Now I'm becoming quite the fanatic.

European Football Fanciers have nothing on MY level of fanaticism.

_________________
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enhu


Joined: 26 May 2009
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Fri 29 May 2009, 15:32    Post subject:  

when you say

Quote:
#10 - POWER OFF - DONT! - properly shut down the system via the menus. This is true for windows also.. but often people get bad habbits..


dyou mean i should not use Menu > Shutdown > Power off Computer?

really new to linux itself and the english isnt my thing. so can you explain please
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bugman


Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2131
Location: buffalo commons

PostPosted: Sun 31 May 2009, 07:48    Post subject:  

enhu wrote:
when you say

Quote:
#10 - POWER OFF - DONT! - properly shut down the system via the menus. This is true for windows also.. but often people get bad habbits..


dyou mean i should not use Menu > Shutdown > Power off Computer?

really new to linux itself and the english isnt my thing. so can you explain please


no, it means that you should only use Menu > Shutdown > Power off Computer

the original sentence is slightly confusing . . .

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and the machines are not corrupted


- lee "scratch" perry
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bob_v5

Joined: 17 Mar 2009
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Wed 03 Jun 2009, 19:55    Post subject:  

Thanks for the rar thing mikeb, (not tested it yet, but I guess it will work.) Thanks for putting up with my slightly drunken rant everyone else!
I dont have people (my stepkid) nagging me for msn because he installs it himself. And a load of other bad software. And then gets upset when his computer is slow and I cant be bothered to reinstall for him. silly boy. Im just glad I dont have to share a computer with this self proclaimed uber 1337 haxor.
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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 8664

PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun 2009, 07:05    Post subject:  

Quote:
Thanks for the rar thing mikeb, (not tested it yet, but I guess it will work.) Thanks for putting up with my slightly drunken rant everyone else!
I dont have people (my stepkid) nagging me for msn because he installs it himself. And a load of other bad software. And then gets upset when his computer is slow and I cant be bothered to reinstall for him. silly boy. Im just glad I dont have to share a computer with this self proclaimed uber 1337 haxor.


no probs.....and 2 viruses in 5 minutes was my one and only experience of the official Msn client.....

mike
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Max Uglee


Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Posts: 87

PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun 2009, 19:55    Post subject:  

If you have a problem, just ask. If you have a suggestion, just suggest. Forget "Customer Support." With Linux you get Community Support.

With customer support you get left on hold for an hour only to talk to a "technician" who reads you the same *.hlp file that you just went over 50 times yourself. When they realize that they can't help you it must be a problem with something else (never their product). Now you're on the phone with company B who only points the finger at something else or back at company A. Your only option is to spend even more money on a different product and keep your fingers crossed.

I used to think "If it's free it must suck." WRONG. I wish I would have learned this a long time ago. Firefox was my first clue. Then came Open Office. Then some of Google's software. I put Firefox on my girlfriends Mac and she preferred it to Safari. I thought about it and wondered how a free program could be so good compared to projects that get worked on by highly paid teams of programmers. I tired Linux and it all became clear.

One of my favorite books is "Power vs. Force." It basically is about how there are "fields" of power in the universe. They are much like magnetic/ electric fields (you can't have one without the other). To be happy you must align yourself with a positive field, once you are part of it you just make it stronger. A community that enjoys helping each other out is a positive thing and therefore is real Power. A company run by somebody that wants to get as much money as possible no matter who they must layoff or put out of business is a Force. Sure, there is a small field created by a team working together but they are all motivated by $$. Let's say one guy goes off to work for another company to get more money. Now he works at company B which is just another weak force motivated by greed. Now there are two smaller negative fields competing with not only each other but the much more Powerful field of open source. They may create some turbulence but they can never win. Eventually many of these programmers will realize this and will work towards something to help people(making the field even stronger) and become happier doing this "charity" work. Others see this and the field continues to grow.

Force never beats Power. No one is happy because they are rich. Helping people will always make you happy. All people really want is to be happy. Being part of something that does nothing but good will make you truly happy. Being part of a cutthroat corporation that cares about nothing but profits will not. It is the same idea as enlightenment and karma. You can apply it to anything.

Wow. that just kind of came out Very Happy.

My point is that open source/free/GPL will win in the end. It used to be if you wanted a graphical desktop you had to buy a Mac or Window$. Look where we are now. These people want to help you because they can and it makes them happy. M$ wants your money and will only help you if you give them more of it.
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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 8664

PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun 2009, 20:17    Post subject:  

Quote:
Wow. that just kind of came out

Well I for one am glad it did.....now floating around on a well comfy positive field Smile

mike
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