HanSamBen-a derivative of Edupup with Gcompris 8.4- Alpha V2

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smdelfin
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#31 Post by smdelfin »

I have successfully installed HanSamBen on 2 preschool PCs with Celeron/128Mb Ram/3Gb harddisk here in the Philippines.
Thank you very much!
Waiting for the next release ...

sidders
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#32 Post by sidders »

Great i hope it goes down well with the kids.


Working on the next release now.

With regards to the network modules, i am assuming that the Kernel can be recompiles without that module. I have done a little reading on the subject of compiling kernels, i will give it a go.

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ecomoney
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#33 Post by ecomoney »

@smdelfin, we are glad you like it :-) Would you tell us a little more about how they work, how fast they are, how long they take to start please, it will help us. Any other suggestions would be really helpful. Send us some pictures too if you like!

@ Sidders, Thanks for the update, how do you feel about the project going international? I am working on some way of tracking the number of downloads of a certain iso from my website, so when the project has its first release, I can give you some more "numbers" :wink:

Im just thinking, if were going totally down the "liveCD only" route, then were not going to need the ntfs/fat drivers at all. If we go down the route of only having an edu_save.2fs on the computers hard disk, we are going to need the ntfs/fat drivers, in order to write this to the computers hard disk.

Both ways have their merits, but if removing the ntfs/fat modules completely is the easiest and safest, and we can say "definitely wont alter anything on your windoze computer", then I think thats the way to go, even if it means the kids cant save their scores/tuxpaint images. In this case, are "users" are parents as well as children.

My apologies for not uploading the Curriculum dvd as yet. I will hunt it down and upload overnight tonight.

Keep up the good work your side Sidders :D
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sullysat
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#34 Post by sullysat »

ecomoney wrote: Im just thinking, if were going totally down the "liveCD only" route, then were not going to need the ntfs/fat drivers at all. If we go down the route of only having an edu_save.2fs on the computers hard disk, we are going to need the ntfs/fat drivers, in order to write this to the computers hard disk.

Both ways have their merits, but if removing the ntfs/fat modules completely is the easiest and safest, and we can say "definitely wont alter anything on your windoze computer", then I think thats the way to go, even if it means the kids cant save their scores/tuxpaint images. In this case, are "users" are parents as well as children.
FYI, I'm working on a few machines that will be standalone systems running HanSamBen. I'm still searching for a preschool nearby that will appreciate them enough to be a test bed for us.

I'm not sure how much RAM I'm going to get in these, so I don't know about install options yet. Most of the Puppy installs I do are full installs in order to minimize issues with pupsaves and RAM, but for this project I'm thinking that running from CD with one of the small harddrives I have laying around for save files may be the best use of resources.

Of course, going this route may require the drivers you're talking about here Rob.

My opinion would be that limiting boot/install options might be counterproductive to the growth of a user base. However, I'm thinking that, given the proposed audience for this puplet, LiveCD w/ savefile on HD is probably the best default option.
ecomoney wrote: My apologies for not uploading the Curriculum dvd as yet. I will hunt it down and upload overnight tonight.
I'd like to see this too, please. I'm thinking that there will be good information here for documentation. It's going to be important to address the international flavor of where this is being used, I think.

Sully

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ecomoney
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#35 Post by ecomoney »

Just for clarification....

Removing the FAT/NTFS drivers would not mean that HanSamBen would not be installable as the main OS on a single computer, either full or frugally installed with GRUB on its own partition (this would use the linux ext2/ext3 drivers). You could use it for recycling the computers for schools, and parents could have a LiveCD to use on their Windows computers at home.

It would be a good idea to remove the disk tools (Grub install, Gparted etc) from the menu's though! :lol: :wink:

So the issue is, to allow a savefile on a windows (home) computer? I know this would be desirable to users yes, however for "marketing" purposes (i.e. to make this educational software accessible to the most children) if we are able to say "wont effect your windows installation in any way whatsoever" then more parents would be inclined to try it. Windows XP users, from their many bitter experiences, are very loathe to try *anything* new on a computer. Most I have seen, if something comes up they dont understand with words like "write", "update", "change", they just click "no" automatically for fear of an expensive repair bill. :)

Ok....so possible ways around this problem of "psychology".

Some "thinking aloud".....

Instead of removing the NTFS/FAT drivers entirely, just remove all the automount/file utilities from the menus, and the routines to ask if a save file is created at shutdown (/etc/rc.shutdown). HSB will then boot everytime in RAM, and shutdown without making any change. Home users/triallers happy! :D

have a "hidden" command (perhaps like a key combination "cheat" on a game) documented in the manual..(which the little ones cant read!). This will bring up a menu that will allow Parents/carers/recyclers to create an edu_save.2fs file on an ntfs/fat partion that will be picked up at boot time. This way kids could save their work, once their parents are confident in Linux's remarkable ability not to break their computer! Experienced home users happy :D

For recyclers such as yourself Sullysat, and people such as smdelfin, who only have access to lower spec computers, then I would suggest a special boot parameter "pfix=recycle". This option would call a special install routine in the "init" script found inside initrd.gz. that would basically recycle the computer into a dedicated kids computer for use in either a home or a school. Recyclers/School IT people Happy :D

Ideas for the modified "init" script
This routine would NOT load the pup_412 into ram (as happens with a livecd boot), therefore would potentially make HSB installable on computers with as little as 32mb of RAM or less....this would maximise access to the educational facilities in HSB, especially to those from less well-off countries. Current puppy has a "double negative" lockout...people cant boot puppy to install puppy to run in less than 64mb unless they have 64mb of RAM already!

This "recycle" subroutine within init would script would:-

1. Confirm what was about to happen (the computer being wiped and all existing data lost!), and give the user chance to abort.

2. Format the hard drive of the computer with a ext2 partition, and a 200mb swap.

3. Install a preconfigured GRUB bootloader, with correct menu.lst, vmlinuz and initrd.gz

4. extract the pup_412.sfs from the cd to the new ext2 partition.

The "full only" install method would not only allow very old computers to be recycled easily with an absolute minimum of training by educationalists, but would also mean that computers that have been dedicated WHOLLY to running HSB would have an extremely quick boot time before the "pretties" appeared....kids have little patience for such things!

If the additional subroutine in the "init" script were GPL, then with the will, theoreticall it *could* be added to mainstream puppy linux. PL will only boot to allow the current i:lol: nstaller to work in 64mb of RAM AFAIK. This would make Mainstream Puppy available EASILY to people that only had computers with 32mb/24mb of RAM....they would only need to know to start with the Boot Parameter "pfix=recycle". This would save a lot more computer waste, and enable access to I.T. to the worlds poorest with only 32mb of RAM without a lot of training.

@ Sidders

You are probably reading the above and thinking ":shock:" I understand you are working on this for free ATM and your time for it is limited. Im very grateful for the work you have put in already.

At this early stage of the project, I believe it is probably best for you to continue the way you are with the removal of the NTFS/FAT drivers entirely . This allows us to be confident that non of our "testers" will suffer "broken windows" (or me personally for that matter :lol: ), and can supply more of the feedback we currently need on the applications.

@ Sullysat, would you be happy for Sidders to continue down the route of removing the NTFS/FAT drivers entirely for the time being, for the sake of simplicity, on the promise to add the above as a "feature" in a later version to extend HSB's reach to more people/schools? Perhaps by then we will be joined by more programmers which will ease the load on Sidders. Have you heard of the 80/20 rule?

Just some ideas/loud thinking.....Feedback/expertise/technical knowledge appreciated. :)
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sullysat
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#36 Post by sullysat »

ecomoney wrote:Just for clarification....
@ Sullysat, would you be happy for Sidders to continue down the route of removing the NTFS/FAT drivers entirely for the time being, for the sake of simplicity, on the promise to add the above as a "feature" in a later version to extend HSB's reach to more people/schools? Perhaps by then we will be joined by more programmers which will ease the load on Sidders. Have you heard of the 80/20 rule?
I was just concerned that I'd need those drivers to install. If that's not the case, I'm good.

I like the other ideas and where this is going. Thanks to Sidders, ecomoney, and everybody else involved in this. Its SO great to see someone dedicated to a good educational product for kids.

Thanks guys,
Sully
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ecomoney
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#37 Post by ecomoney »

:oops: Sorry, yes...my creative side can run away with me sometimes

I had better find that disk and start it uploading
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puppyluvr
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#38 Post by puppyluvr »

:D Hello,
Well, I must admit, having messed with Gcompriz on Puppy B4, with limited success, I was sceptical..
I`m, not anymore.... :shock:
I managed to get it about 1/2 functional, or so I thought... :lol:
Had I realized it was this extensive, perhaps I might have tried harder..
I hope you can achieve this kind of success with Childsplay... :D
I still have many pets / plugins I gathered in my attempts with it, if you need anything........
Bravo....Very cute, very slick, very well thought out....
These "special" Pups are what make Puppy "Special"...LOL...
And could make it a household name yet....
My 2 1/2 yr old son says "tank eww"..LOL
Maybe after some time on this, he`ll pronounce that better...
...Jay....

This goes on the "best of" DVD.... :D :D

sidders
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#39 Post by sidders »

Gcompris - A couple more of the apps are working now with the addition of gst-plugin-good and a library file. I've had a quick go at Ktuberling, which looks great for the kids but that is a KDE app, I've left it for now until i work out the KDE side of it. It may grow too big to include. Going to have a chat with some people about whether the game can be replicated in Python. Going to go back to have another go at Childsplay. I ve posted wjat i have so far on another thread.

I have found the NTFS driver, maybe the way to go is to customise the kernel. Another step up for me, but i have the kernel source. Before i do that i will get V2 up with everything (except browser). Then experiment with the kernel.
I have an 18 MO jumping on me, id better go.

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ecomoney
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#40 Post by ecomoney »

Good work sidders.

The KDE libs are notoriously large/slow, and would need to be loaded before the game is...needing they would take system resources even when they wernt being used. dont get me wrong, Ktuberling is a very popular game (Ive used it at a Breakfast club not far from here on Edubuntu), but the overhead would be large....meaning that people with older/slower computers would not be able access ANY of the other educational games in HSB at all!

May I suggest the update "little and often" option Sidders. If we have a "safe" LiveCD, then we will be in a better position to know with more certainty what was needed in the release after from the feedback we get.

Another thing I have thought of....A "sweet spot" in terms of loading into RAM would be to keep it to about 210mb. There are a large number of 256mb RAM computers around. This would mean that all application could be loaded into RAM for speed, with a little working space left over. We must take into account that if we dont have NTFS drivers, then HSB will be unable to use a swap file (pupswap.swp) on the ntfs/fat drives also. Therefore if as many games as possible can be made to run "full screen" then this will prevent the little ones opening several apps at once and using up the available RAM.

Childsplay looks a great app, but many of the "learning objectives", and indeed the games themselves, are covered by gcompris.

Ive also got a confession....Ive misplaced the DVD from the preschool! :oops: Im sure it will appear (I have a pretty chaotic lifestyle), but in the meantime I will get another copy on my phone from the Pre-School admin computer tomorrow morning when I drop Caleb off.

P.S. The local "press" have already caught wind of the project (through one of the "mums testing team" I have recruited! :roll: ). We have a journalist from here eagerly waiting to do a review....whenever you are ready Sidders :D

http://www.living-in-lincolnshire.co.uk
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sidders
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#41 Post by sidders »

I havn't taken anything out yet. I will look at the network module in the kernel at a later date.

Childsplay has been left hanging on another thread,somone else might come up with an answer.

I'll put v2 together over the next couple of nights and get it up. Taking the kids to the Lakes under canvas this weekend.

I'll post the GST-good and the libs if anyone wants to stick it in V1.

The printing hasnt been tested, i just scanned the forum for the best options, to try and make it so as many printers are PnP (if you like).

Is Abiword worth keeping in?. I'll put it in anyway and see what people think or whether it gets used at all.

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ecomoney
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#42 Post by ecomoney »

Hi Sidders,

Abiword, yes (kids Ive noticed like something they can just write on, especially if you are including tuxtype)...the older ones would need a word processor they could learn on IMHO... but you could take a gNumeric which I think would save a bit of space.

I think the network modules are just files at the location I specified in my earlier post. It should just be a matter of deleting them, plus the /usr/sbin/net-setup.sh file (the network wizard). In fact you could remove the "network" and "internet" menus entirely from the start menu...plus all of the programs they point to (this should alleviate parental concerns also). Hint, you could try running qemu/virtualbox to create a "virtual machine" for programming HSB, otherwise your going to need to reboot constantly to get on the net to do your research. Qemu/Virtualbox would also allow you to alter the amount of RAM to test various machine specs. I know this is how Antonio (slapshot) does it with edupup.

Regards the childsplay problem, you could try it with the updated JWM that patriot has just released. It gives nice rounded corners too!

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=39162

Patriot would probably help you with that side of things if you PM'ed him, xservers are his thing.

Ive just been to the preschool and got the files about the UK curriculum, they are uploading as we speak to http://www.ecomoney.eu/hsb/curriculum, and should be finished in about 20 minutes from the time of this post.

Many thanks again for your work sidders...you deserve a well earned holiday, the Lake District is a beautiful place and Im sure will refresh you.
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sidders
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#43 Post by sidders »

Got a new game installed called stickers, used Petbgone to strip out network menus, pppoe, wvdial etc and removed any browser.

Just about to make the ISO and i thought CUPS!!!. On the hunt for a bare minimum browser to serve CUPS.

With whats been added and whats been taken away, it now stands at 205mb. Until i get a browser that is.

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#44 Post by ecomoney »

On ecopup (which Ive been tweaking for the last two years) I use the Dillo browser, that operates cups very well. You have to set in the config file not to cache, that way it updates when you add new printers etc. I think its very small.

Very much looking forward to the new version Sidders :-)
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sidders
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#45 Post by sidders »

CUPS

Going to play about with Dillo and Netsurf. Away this weekend, back to the project on Sunday night. I will have a V2 next week.

Dilo from pup3 repo 261k
Netsurf from pup4 repo 344k

I think Netsurf is in Cups_shell. Whether it does the Bareview without Seamonkey i dont yet know. If it doesnt i'll go the Dillo route (dependency pending). The smaller the better, and Rob knows Dillo.

Pete i havnt solved the Red arrow cursor in Gcompris. I've used 8.4.6 for this one, but the result was the same. Had to start with the mouse game. I think it will be smaller anyway as i stripped out the test folder in Python (no adverse effects).

I'm seeing the programmer friend this weekend, i will ply him with dhim drink and get him or someone he knows to tickle a few games, but that
wont delay V2, more of a long term quality thing.

I went to the nursery today, still didnt get much detailed feedback, they just said the kids loved it. Which bits, what areas need improving?.

Going to resort to waterboarding!!! :x

Peter444
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HanSamBen V2

#46 Post by Peter444 »

Thanks for the feedback on the big red arrow, not a show stopper with the workaround available

3 year old GD likes Hexahop, and has worked out how to go backwards if she makes an error, hasnt mastered the trampoline section yet

Also likes using the eraser in Tuxpaint to scrub out her animals as she puts it to remove the stamps she has used

Thanks Peter444

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ecomoney
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#47 Post by ecomoney »

Sidders wrote:I will have a V2 next week.
A word of advice, programmers NEVER give a date things are going to be ready by! (Especially open source programmers :-) ). Deadlines are left to Micro$oft, they force mistakes :)

I dont really know a lot about dillo...it came as a .pup for 2.15ce so I just used it. I would say, as long as it displays "localhost:441" use it! It needs chache turning off too, so it loads changes immedietly they are made. Dillo in ecopup doesnt do this you have to manually refesh with F5 :oops:

With regards to your testers and them providing feedback....getting this from them is actually quite tricky. As youve provided with them with the kit and the programs for free they are probably of the mindset that "we dont want to critisise anything weve been given for free"....which is unproductive in terms of improving it.

The Priory Lane Preschool where I work have been software testers for several years now, and I made it clear to them that I not only wanted, but NEEDED feedback in order to improve whatever software we had on test there....and that was part of the deal. Part of the problem I think is that "User experts" like the people in preschools (who have extensive kids "social" skills) often have a mindset that they are "not very good at computers" and therefore there is nothing that they are able to contribute...not at all - they are the ones that provide the direction and expertise necessary to create good software. This is something Ive learnt through years as a professional programmer, and also via theory from my higher education in Programming/Computing/Business Information Systems. Most computer systems fail BECAUSE the end user, and the environment in which they work, are not taken into account (child benefit, NHS records etc).

I think that it would do the project a great deal of good if you were to sit them down and explain this to them very carefully. Explain how it is an open source project (explain this too!), so that their expertise and suggestions go toward improving the education of children all over the world. I think once they "get it" you will find them more than willing to go over it with a "fine toothed comb", and get a lot more personal satisfaction from being involved.

Dont resort to waterboarding....generally speaking it doesnt produce good intelligence, and is bad for PR :lol: ;-)

I was Speaking to Antonio (Slapshot) today, who co-ordinated/programmed Edupup on Facebook Chat (irc...whats that?). He was aware of the project and has given it his blessing. Although he is wuite busy at the moment (he was just going out to teach a course on the linux filesystem!), he said he would drop by to give some input on some of the technical issues/generally make available his experience. Looks like you wont need to buy those drinks after all Sidders ;-)
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ecomoney
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#48 Post by ecomoney »

Ive just discovered another mini-browser, which may be suitable for cups. It weighs in at 10k!!!

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 653#305653
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Amazing!

#49 Post by OpenEric »

I just have to jump in with my two cents, here...

I L-O-V-E this software.

I've toyed with Linux in the past, and in recent months have even built an Ubuntu box, but I have never seen an OS like Puppy (one that runs so well on older equipment and lets you roll-your-own LiveCD), and I am even more impressed by this particular version.

I inherited a Celeron 350 (256 MB RAM) from a co-worker that I was going to set up as a dedicated music-streaming box (for lack of a better idea), but when I heard about Puppy, I decided to try and turn it into a computer for my kids. I tried using 4.20 (Deep Thought), Growler, MacPup... I burned about 10 discs in the last week or so, each a different version of Puppy, but none of them felt right for a 5 and an 8 year old. Then I tried EduPup, but I liked the version 4 base better than version 3, so I discarded it, too.

This version worked exactly right.

I will say that, where I live in the US, the school system has a contract with apple, so they are used to using macs at school, which (I think) is part of why they like this system... Their familiarity extends beyond M$ Windoze, which is great. For what it's worth, my five-year-old was especially impressed with GCompris...

So, kudos to you guys for all the hard work and testing you've done on this project. Thanks, and keep up the good work.

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#50 Post by ecomoney »

[quote=OpenEric]I just have to jump in with my two cents, here... [/quote]

Feel free Eric, thank you for coming on here and keeping us all motivated!

I come from the school of "Listen to your users" development. If were going to make HSB even better then feel free to point out any changes we could make, or report any problems.

Welcome to the forum Eric, and welcome to the team :wink:
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