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HanSamBen-a derivative of Edupup with Gcompris 8.4- Alpha V2
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technosaurus


Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 4134

PostPosted: Mon 08 Jun 2009, 20:34    Post subject:  

MU's vala picture viewer is smaller than epdfview and will view pdfs

if you want to use html dillo2 can view html & I have cut it down to a 360kb pet (only 364kb installed)...
I removed the desktop file so that it won't show up in the menu and deleted all of the plugins (let me know if this works for CUPS too - it may need just one or 2 plugins - the biggest of which is download, which if removed makes it only about 420Kb)

I will attach both

to make it easy you could even put the dillo binary in the same location as the html file and run it with a script


Code:

#!/bin/sh
exec ./dillo gcompris.html


and because this dillo is statically compiled it should work on any version of linux

I also wanted to test out starting directly into gcompris - need to look up the command line argument to tell it to start full screen then try "startx gcompris -<whatever it is to start full screen>"

I would like to get it set up to boot directly to gcompris... maybe by changing the contents of /etc/windowmanager from "jwm" to gcompris -<whatever it is>
dillo2_kiosk.pet
Description  full dillo with menu entry, default viewer and only the download plugin removed
pet

 Download 
Filename  dillo2_kiosk.pet 
Filesize  417.39 KB 
Downloaded  243 Time(s) 
dillo2_cut.pet
Description  just the dillo executable and set it to defaulthtmlviewer
pet

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Filename  dillo2_cut.pet 
Filesize  359.48 KB 
Downloaded  231 Time(s) 

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sidders

Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 470
Location: Bolton, uk

PostPosted: Tue 09 Jun 2009, 02:43    Post subject:  

for full screen

[/code]gcompris -f
Code:

Last edited by sidders on Wed 10 Jun 2009, 09:28; edited 1 time in total
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ljfr

Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 176

PostPosted: Tue 09 Jun 2009, 11:25    Post subject: thanks, a really great release...  

hi sidders,

I downloaded the full version (including firepup),
It's working great, and the desktop is even nicer this way.
2 minor feedbacks:

- The initial "Welcome! Click here for getting-started information" banner is not working, since the /usr/local/bin/defaulthtlmviewer is not well defined. If you want to skip this message, you could modify the script /usr/sbin/delayedrun.

- for HHH, you can launch it full screen if you want,
but the game is too fast/difficult for me Embarassed , then I made some changes (see HHH post).

NB: Following your guidelines, I have childsplay working (see childsplay post).
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sidders

Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 470
Location: Bolton, uk

PostPosted: Wed 10 Jun 2009, 09:32    Post subject:  

Thanks ljfr, i noticed the Childsplay post, i was stuck and had run out of ideas. Will work on the "getting started", but first i will have a look at it to see if its relevant (i've never looked before Rolling Eyes ) and i will look at the Dillo and cups.

Just burning Quimo http://www.qimo4kids.com/ to see whats going on there.
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Wed 10 Jun 2009, 23:02    Post subject:  

Hi All! Ive been testing the new HSB release...very impressive! Ive installed it now on both of the computers at the pre-school (replacing the previous Ecopup one), and Ive also demonstrated it to teaching staff at a new school in my area who were also very impressed with both the technology and its aims.

The primary school in question (with its own nursery so they teach children aged 3-12) originally contacted me to dispose of a "waste problem" of a suite of windows 98 era computers (approx P500/64mb from my brief inspection). I pick up a batch of computers about four/five times a year (for free) and recycle them on to people in the area or charities/community groups.

We dont actually have enough storage for them at the moment (theres a glut of very high spec computers since Vista came out), so I suggested that I demonstrate HSB to them as a means of keeping the computers useful to them rather than pay twice to have them disposed of and again to have them replaced. First I demonstrated HSB on the deputy heads own computer which was still running Win2k. She was asking about the office suites and luckily HSB still has Abiword included...which she was very impressed with the speed of on her ancient computer. She obviously thought it to be a solution for their older children but I explained that it was primarily aimed at the 2-6 year old age groups, although there were other linux's that may suit her older childrens needs. I was then introduced to her Nursery teacher, who I demo'ed HSB to as well, and she said she would love to have a couple of the old computers available for the nursery section of the school.

She was particularly interested in the "free" aspect of the software and was curious how it managed to fund itself. I explained open source was the largest voluntary project on the planet, and that although some (lucky) developers are paid, most do it either for a hobby, for ideological reasons, or to serve their own or the company they work for's needs. She said they were so used to paying through the nose for all things Information Technology. I explained Ecomoney Systems was a non-profit social enterprise and our primary role was research into how to make Open Source more usable/desirable, and that any knowledge/experience they could give us was worth far more than a bunch of waste computers.

The computer suite she showed me was obviously state of the art and would have cost a LOT of money when new. It was well equipped with networked printers, desks, Ethernet wiring, a Windows NT fileserver etc. It also had a SmartBoard interactive whiteboard. This is basically an overhead projector hooked into a touch sensitive whiteboard, allowing the teachers to project an image from the teaching computer and highlight buttons and ways of doing things so the whole class can see. I believe a linux driver exists.

After a bit of discussion, we found there was a second smaller IT suite at the school. The plan she will be running past the other teachers is to move the new computers out of there into the teaching suite, give some of the win98 computers there to the preschool department for HSB, and the win98 computers moved to the smaller room and loaded with Linux to extend their lives. Apparently this is currently some sort of open access teaching room, where children and teachers can go and do their research...so it is ideal for linux. Unfortunetely a lot of the curriculum is based around using software that is only available for Windoze (damned UK government!). I also heard about their IT tech, who works one morning a week on "hire" from another local school. Apparently he has mentioned open source before and is a big fan...although he hadnt quite put it in the ways I did. This is going to be a big bonus should they choose to migrate some of their systems to Linux. They will be bringing the subject up at the staff meeting next week and Im expecting a call! Very Happy

I also today installed HSB at the preschool, this time on both computers. It was the first chance I have had to test the [ctrl]+[alt]+[I] installer in earnest..and Im afraid I must report a failure. The machines are 256/192mb of ram respectively...so the installer automatically chose to do a frugal install. I didnt test the full installer.

The installer formatted the drive and installed GRUB fine, but failed with a "file not found" error when copying the "pup_412Edu.sfs" from the cdrom to the newly formatted hard disk. The culprit is on line 63 of the "/usr/bin/frugal-install" script included in this version. The last line in this section of code.

Code:

#Install Puppy
echo
echo Copying Puppy files ... Please wait ...
echo
cp -v /mnt/cdrom/vmlinuz /mnt/sda1
cp -v /mnt/cdrom/initrd.gz /mnt/sda1
cp -v /mnt/cdrom/pup_???.sfs /mnt/sda1


The actual filename that must be copied in this case is "pup_412Edu.sfs", but the wildcard "pup_???.sfs" means "copy any file with three letters/numbers between the pup_ and the .sfs .". The HSB file has six ("412Edu"), so

Code:
cp -v /mnt/cdrom/pup_??????.sfs /mnt/sda1


would be needed...however...

If the line were to read

Code:
cp -v /mnt/cdrom/*.sfs /mnt/sda1


this would mean that *any*/*all* file(s) with the .sfs extention would be copied onto the hard disk. This would mean that addational addon packs could be included on the CD, that while to big to be included in liveboot, would become available in the Hard Disk installed HSB. This may be a good way to include the KDE educational applications (such as ChildsPlay), which although very good require massive libraries to run. There is still a fair amount (about 380mb) of spare space on the CD which would be enough to hold a massive amount of extra games and more specialist software for dedicated HSB computers. As .sfs addons are not loaded into RAM until required, this would not increase the memory requirements by much.

The two teachers that tested it (Sandra and Vicky) at the Priory Lane preschool were delighted by the extra software, and were particularly impressed by the interactive storybooks, and the additional drag and drop shape programs they had requested (as well as the colourful new wallpaper). They didint have the time (class was on) to look through everything although they did say they will be preparing a full report when they had the time. Another of the teaching assistants (and by request two of the parents running WinXP) took CD's to test. Unfortunately Sandra and Vicky both run standard puppy/ecopup at home and the pup_save.2fs files would conflict with their systems.

They did manage to find a few things in the short time they had on them however...

-Double click desktop icons are too difficult for the little ones to master on their own, it really needs to be single click to start.

-The game that creates puzzles from pictures (including the puppy 1.08ce wallpaper!) is a little too difficult for the age group

-It would be nice for the icons to be spaced out evenly around the screen

The Windowed DOS games worked well and the teachers had no problems exiting from them.

Sidders, if you think it would be a good idea too, I would be happy to prepare some of the double/single click icons from Ecopup to use in HSB. These allow programs to be launched from desktop icons with *either* a single or a double click, and put up a simple splash screen to give the little ones feedback while the program is loading...else they tend to just click and click until the program (or several instances of them) appear. This would be useful on slower computers where some of the heavier games may take a couple of seconds to load. They also prevent several instances of the program running if an icon is clicked several times....patience is something that is learned later in life Smile

You can download them from here if you want to check them out. Ive tested them on HSB and they do work.

http://ecomoney.eu/hsb/code/ecopup-icons.zip

Although you may have to get a tiny updated xmessage (called gxmessage I think ) for them to display the splash properly. It would just be a (time consuming) process of changing one of the icons to have the correct message/bitmap, and to call the correct program. You can get "inside" them to see how they work by right clicking them in Rox and selecting "look inside".

I took a quick look at Qimo too. It is based around Xubuntu, who's hardware requirements are much higher than Puppies. From its FAQ

qimo wrote:
Q: What are the hardware requirements for Qimo?
A: Qimo needs a minimum of 256MB of memory to run from the CD, or 192MB to install. At least 6 GB of hard drive space is recommended, and a 400MHz or faster CPU.


I actually had HSB running manageably on a pentium 1 150mhz with 128mb of ram the other day, using about 500mb of space. It also includes a lot less games than HSB (only gcompris/ tuxtype /tuxpaint/ Childsplay and etoys). My experience with ubuntu/xubuntu is that its considerably slower than Puppy, with less hardware support out of the box.

They do however have a really nice logo and website...perhaps something to start giving some thought to.

Anyway Sidders/everyone, thank you all for your work, its amazing how quickly this has taken shape. Its going to be an extremely useful piece of technology to a great many people when it is finished...which I can see is getting nearer by the day. Thank you particularly Sidders for including my suggestions and reacting/responding to the feedback from the preschool. Ive got the "mums testing team" to contact now on facebook, as well as the Lincolnshire Life magazine. Keep up the good work!

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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 8563
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed 10 Jun 2009, 23:17    Post subject:  

Code:
cp -v /mnt/cdrom/*.sfs /mnt/sda1

This is how a frugal install is handled in the current version of the one-click script. It also accommodates those Puppies that use a zdrvxxx.sfs file. It would be nice if sidders replaced the prototype version in HSB with the latest version. This would avoid any future confusion if he decides to change the base Puppy of HSB.
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sidders

Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 470
Location: Bolton, uk

PostPosted: Thu 11 Jun 2009, 03:36    Post subject:  

thx all. A lot of these are oversights from myself. I did make a list, which disappeared, i suspect it was ingested by an 18 month old named Sam!. I will make changes as they come up.

I have experimented with Ktuberling, just to make it work i posted the results, so they are there to come back to. It still needs a lot more work. Just trying out a Gnome app called Phonix. The idea is to try and get as many apps in the KDE and Gnome with a few libs as possible. For example KDE games shoves all sorts of apps on, like Konquerer etc.

The Quimo didnt work, i will have to download it again. I was looking at that just to get any ideas. Its a massive 698mb, and its Ubuntu, so its not at all in contention. Tried to get Tux4kids, but that seems to have been abandoned (last update Nov 2006).
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Thu 11 Jun 2009, 08:18    Post subject:  

Sidders, sharing a home part of the time with 3 children myself I can only sympathize with what your your "working environment" must be like Smile
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Puppyt

Joined: 09 May 2008
Posts: 553
Location: Karana Downs, Queensland

PostPosted: Thu 11 Jun 2009, 09:45    Post subject:  

Coupla points while the kids are asleep at my end:

sidders-
Quote:
The idea is to try and get as many apps in the KDE and Gnome with a few libs as possible. For example KDE games shoves all sorts of apps on, like Konquerer etc.

You might be interested in this thread of gposils and comments from dejan555 relating to minimal KDE - around 26MB for the 3.5.9 base http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=314717#314717

... promised feedback from 3 sub-7y.o. nephews - "HanSamBen2 ROCKS". Their Grandmother is especially amazed at the aplomb and skills of Mr 3 and gCompris' pacman... most especially, boys 3, 5 and 7 sharing the computer and switching to their preferred levels in total harmony and with minimal adult supervision over hours of play truly speaks volumes for your choice of educational software. We have Linux converts there...

ecomoney and sidders-
ecomoney has raised the issue of the apparent complexity of installing Puppy (and GRUB!) as being a major drawback in its uptake by the general population. I wish that there was not only a simpler path, but also the provision of additional info and explanations if I wanted (from time to time, depending on my installation requirements if my memory needs refreshing for certain options - and avoiding outdated warnings re superfloppies or grub installs to MBR etc etc). And I hate that void between the puppy install and the grub install - I seem to remember earlier distros that nicely held my hand between those two installation phases...
What about an installation environment running as simply and easily as webpage navigation, with all the successive stages just hyperlinking the otherwise unseen old dialogue windows? Mouseover tips, help screens as required, but overall an attractive candywrapping to the sticky issue of installation?
That way, the html "GUI" might be modified as required by the puplet authors - perhaps not with flash gimmicks but at least wallpapers and radio buttons appropriate to the intended audience. Maybe on-the-fly network installation and downloading of extra pets (e.g., Ri-li etc) could also be achieved here, or the loading of wanted SFS's to the home directory... Installation would be more of a "choose your own adventure" as it should be, and less of a "read all the technical smallprint and pray you haven't done anything wrong" anxiety for novice users.
I'd buy that - if it were possible - but I'm not a programmer or web designer so I don't know the practicalities.

Cheers.
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TheProphet

Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 173

PostPosted: Thu 11 Jun 2009, 23:48    Post subject:  

Here's a couple you could put in one is a sign-language sing-along about the ABCs.

The Canadian Version. I thought at first from the title that it would be the American one, which is on the tune of Twinkle Twinkle little star.

Works though, lots of bright colors and bold imagery.

The video

I hope that link came out right, in the original they put a backslash at the very end of the filename, and I don't know how it'll work in BBCode.

Let's give it a go then same thing without backslash removed

That's aimed at the very young.

Then there's teaching a whole-word ASL {and there's regional and language variants on that as well, one of them British -- I wonder if it's possible to sign with a Scots burr? ) which is being experimented on, worldwide as a means of communicating with non-deaf infants who simply haven't gotten vocalization down just right... yet...

As in, babies as young as 7 or 8 months forming simple sentences, just not vocally.

There's a tutorial more age appropriate for me that works like a java-enabled typing tutorial, you see a flash video of the hand making the letters, and type in what you see.

The video I linked is a nice start plus the originating website has links to even more.
In Texas 7 years ago ASL was the third most commonly "spoken" language, in between Spanish and French.

Since on the first page of posts in this thread it was mentioned at least once that the British schools were more or less locked out to linux, and what was needed was teaching basic communications to the very young, that seems like a good one.

The alphabet song also had the written letters along with the hand signs and the singing.

The lletters flash-cards could be just as easily adapted to that purpose.

I've another idea that I'll post in the requests section for a speed-enhancing reading tutorial for those of us Not-Nearly-as-small persons.

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sidders

Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 470
Location: Bolton, uk

PostPosted: Fri 12 Jun 2009, 02:18    Post subject:  

Presently ruminating on the ideas, Dillo a web html based installation and signs. I did start on the lletters game, i have some pics, though all the letters are not yet covered. I will collar some kids and record them saying the letters http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=20623
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sidders

Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 470
Location: Bolton, uk

PostPosted: Fri 12 Jun 2009, 17:24    Post subject:  

Started a KDE Kids Games SFS. I have only got Ktuberling and have to get the sound to work, for that i'm going to look at Kmultimedia.

I'll post it under the Ktuberling thread. If anyone knows of any KDE games that are good then let me know. Its still in its infancy. I used the link provided by puppyt and wound up here:

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=41115

Downloaded the KDELibs pet (26m)

I petted Ktuberling and then grabbed a whole load of missing libs from
maddog http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=262652
and just took the libs i needed, in this case Kdegames.so...

Cant you tell my missus is a maths and IT teacher, i'm showing all my working out.
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puppyluvr


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 3145
Location: Chickasha Oklahoma

PostPosted: Sat 13 Jun 2009, 02:08    Post subject:  

Very Happy Hello,
Well, I took a HSB disk to work with me, and fired it up on a desktop in the center office, (Dell, 800mhz 768mb/ CRT) for the bosses kid to play on..
With no introduction, ( I literally just booted it up, and left, she came in later), she had a blast..( Kudos for Tux-Paint and G-Compris from her!!!) Very Happy
Then, when I came in later, the secretary was doing banking on it, and wondered why it wouldnt print....
All with absolutely no instruction, explanation, nada...(She actually thought HSB was a "program", so she found and opened the browser, and just "went with it")
A total Dozer was surfing, banking, the whole 9 yards, as if I hadnt booted this completely strange O.S. on her computer...(An hour B4 she came in..)
A lot of "Wow" and "Amazing how fast" comments..
And a few, "Can we use this at home"`s as well..
This is a dual accolade, because the kid loved HSB, and the secretary was using the 4.12 side of it for her day 2 day business, with not even a warning...
The next morning the secretary was disapointed, as she had brought a different kid with her, intended to entertain him with it, and , of course, after a reboot, she said, "All there was was Windows"...
LOL...
Great job HSB, and great job Puppy...

@Thinking about it, I probably get more "Show off" usage from this one disc than any other Pup..
I really think the Edupup/HSB combo could be a REAL big deal for Puppy, and Linux in general..
It fills a need in a HUGE market of both hardware and software needs..
Need an educational suite for the younger computer users...
Need a use for the computers the "Lab" had to dump to keep up with the latest M$$$$$ requirements....
Unlimited time offer....
Just what you need...
Free....

See a little potential there??
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Sat 13 Jun 2009, 04:05    Post subject:  

@ PuppyLuvr

Its great when stuff like this happens Very Happy

Burn a few CD's of HSB and give them out to the people at work with kids, tell them it is still an "in-progress" work, and ask them to give you their suggestions/opinions/observations, then report them back here.

If you want to win your work over to using Puppy Linux (It can be used in commercial environments I know), just tell your boss it is free, legal, has no licience restrictions, will not catch viruses, has free technical support, saves the staff productive time because of its amazing speed, and he wont have to buy a new computer in the desktop office for another three or four years.

@ Sidders

She is a math/IT teacher? You must be her hero for producing HSB!

Its good to show your "working out", it not only documents what you have done in case others need it, but it allows others to give their input too.

Something you will have found already...

http://edu.kde.org/

You could also have a look at etoys project

http://www.squeakland.org/about/intro/

It has some very high profile investors and is part of the squeak project

(thanks to TheProphet for bringing this to my attention)

LittleWizard is also a great app for teaching younger kids to program (I designed and wrote my first program on a 32k BBC Microcomputer when I was eight years old so it can be done...I was a weird kid tho!). Its part of the small kids games suite I included in Ecopup so I know it runs on Puppy, and is quite small in size.

Its great your going down the .sfs route for the additional programs...why not fill an entire CD with educational Apps? The sfs could be used on "installed" on windows computers as well, you would just need to tell the user to copy the .sfs to c:\ and the puppy startup script would pick it up. You should also include an expanded root/.jwmrc and /root/Choices/ROX-Filer/PuppyPin files in the .sfs, as this will give the additional menu entries/desktop icons for the programs in the "expanded" HSB.

Keep up the good work Sidders Very Happy

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sidders

Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 470
Location: Bolton, uk

PostPosted: Mon 15 Jun 2009, 16:46    Post subject:  

Kde Education Project sfs.
There are two. One for the little ones and another with the lot in.
See this thread http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=43591
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