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ecomoney
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#46 Post by ecomoney »

MZ, Aitch, thank you for your continued help. General networking theory is a bit of a black hole which I need to learn a lot more about. At the moment this is what I currently (think I) understand.

-A TFTP server "offers" boot files (initrd.gz and vmlinuz) out to any computer on the network that requests it (i.e. "boot from network" is selected in the bios)

- A DHCP server is something that assigns a computer on the network with an ip address...so it can gain access to the internet. It can be done by a router, or by any computer connected to the network. When a computer connects via DHCP, its "internet" is delivered via the Computer which gave it its i.p. address.

One of the "features" I wish to implement of this cybercafe system is also that very little networking knowledge is assumed. Computer expertise is expensive (unless its gained from open source forums!), and I would like this system to be able to be used/setup/operated by staff who have very low levels of computer expertise. Reconfiguring routers (or even knowing the passwords for them :wink: ) is something I would prefer to avoid anyone working this system needing to do. Another "feature" of this system is that it can be set up with commonly available computers (as old as possible) and networking components.

To manage billing, the Admin computer not only has to be a TFTP netboot server, but also control/filter internet access. An instruction like "Make sure this computer is switched on first and then everything else will work" is at a level where most of the cybercafe staff would be able to comprehend :D

MZ, you mentioned a "race condition" when there are two DHCP servers on the same network...with whichever can supply an i.p. address fastest becoming the one which takes priority for supplying the "internet" to the other computers connected to the network. Either the ADSL router, or a PC (the Admin PC in this example) can supply i.p. addresses and the "internet". I notice with many routers, there is a short delay when running the Puppy Ethernet Connection wizard anr requesting an i.p. address from the router (pressing the autoDHCP" button. Puppy is configured to try for 60 seconds when requesting an i.p. address from the ethernet network it is connected to.

Putting aside the conventional networking wisdom about running two DHCP servers on the same network for a moment (which I can understand is wise), would the admin PC in this example be able to *consistently* supply I.P. addresses from a DHCP server running on it faster (i.e. in preference to) a box standard ADSL router?

If this were the case, I am thinking that the Admin PC on this network could boot first, gaining its I.P. address from the router. Once internet access to the admin machine is established, it could start its own (faster) DHCP server. Requests for i.p addresses/internet connections from computers on the network (both netbooted clients and laptops that people brought in) would then be made via the admin machine in preference to the ADSL router.

The admin machine could then act as a "Gateway" (let me know if Im using the correct terminology), redirecting all web page requests to a page requiring login with a ticket number before it starts to route them to the client P.C. (Could puppies inbuilt Monkey Webserver be used to host this "captive portal"?).

Using this method (if it will work consistently and reliably), then it would simply be a matter of the cybercafe staff knowing to switch on the admin machine first. Anything else the plug in and set to boot from the network will then "just work", as well as any Windows/Mac laptops.

MZ I am happy to conduct any tests that you need more information on. I also have several pcmcia network adaptors I would be happy to send you if you PM me with your whereabouts.
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ecomoney
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#47 Post by ecomoney »

Ive done some reading on the subject

http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/in ... 102AAK2T9c

If the admin computer were to effectively "take over"/"perform faster" the issue of i.p. addresses to clients, then it would need to use a different range of i.p. addresses (a different "subnet") to the one that it got from the ADSL router. Could it do that by inspecting the i.p. address it recieved from the ADSL router on bootup, and setting its DCHP servers to issues i.p.'s from a different range?

i.e. ADSL router is configured to issue i.p. addresses in the range of 192.168.0.2-255, the Admin machine would then see the address it has been given, and start its (faster) DHCP server to issue addresses in the range 192.168.1.1-255?

That way, any computer that was started with DHCP on bootup would gain its "internet" via the Admin computer (and have that connection filtered based upon a valid login). Otherwise if the Admin machine was not switched on, the system would "fallback" to having their internet being supplied by the ADSL router. This would mean that the cybercafe would still be available (not through netbooting but perhaps by booting from CD/usb) without any billing being available. This would be much preferred to there being no internet connection at all as the cybercafe operator could at least tap on peoples shoulders asking them to pay up! :D
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Aitch
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#48 Post by Aitch »

Rob

For a deeper understanding try;

http://www.linuxtopia.org/online_books/ ... tcpip.html

http://www.linuxtopia.org/online_books/ ... esses.html

http://www.linuxtopia.org/online_books/ ... uting.html

I also saw this in the configuring kernel section,, which may be worth a read
Networking options --->
[*] TCP/IP networking

Gateways

You have to enable this option if your system acts as a gateway between two networks or between a LAN and a SLIP link, etc. It doesn't hurt to enable this by default, but you may want to disable it to configure a host as a so-called firewall. Firewalls are hosts that are connected to two or more networks, but don't route traffic between them. They're commonly used to provide users with Internet access at minimal risk to the internal network. Users are allowed to log in to the firewall and use Internet services, but the company's machines are protected from outside attacks because incoming connections can't cross the firewall (firewalls are covered in detail in Chapter 9 ):
Note: By the you get it sorted, they'll have to lay in a fibre optic to keep pace with all your web traffic :wink: :D

HTH

btw the main site is a gem...

http://www.linuxtopia.org/index.html

Aitch :)

MagicZaurus
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Joined: Mon 05 Jan 2009, 17:35

#49 Post by MagicZaurus »

I would presume that there is no way to guarantee that the Admin PC is always a faster DHCP server than the ADSL modem. There are hundreds of different ADSL modems in the market and there is no way to know how they all work.

Some explanation why we need a DHCP server on the Admin PC. When the client PC boots the network card first needs to get an IP address and the information where the TFTP server is located. So the network card makes a broedcast request. In that case either the ADSL modem or the Admin PC replies faster. In case of the ADSL modem there is no attached information about the TFTP server provided and the network card can just drop that reply and will wait for a reply which includes a TFTP server information to start the netbooting. Because the ADSL modem doesn't provide the TFTP server information it is required to run an additional DHCP server on the Admin PC in order to get netbooting working.

After Puppy is booted it will request for an IP from the DHCP server again and now it really depends who responds faster. Most likely it might even be the ADSL modem which is faster, as the client is directly wired to the ADSL modem. Which is ok, as long as no billing/mac-filtering is required.

As mentioned in your link, it is still possible to run 2 DHCP server as long as the issued IP addresses don't overlap. But there is no control which DHCP server will issue the IP to the client.

In my opinion the only safe/feasable way is to put the Admin PC between the ADSL modem and the client network.

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ecomoney
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#50 Post by ecomoney »

@ Aitch, thank you for those links, thats my bedtime reading for a few nights sorted out. Theres always something new to learn, I doubt I will ever get senile in my old age if I continue to work my brain like this.

The thing about the kernel you mention...Ive always wondered why the internet connection sharing code in the firewall wizard doesnt seem to work...could it be that Puppies kernel is compiled with this option turned off? How would we find out?

MZ, Thanks for the explaination. This method does seem a little convoluted. The idea is to get around the need to install software on the machines that people bring in. The netboot clients could have their boot image configured quite easily to have their sessions authenticated from the admin computer...but this wouldnt apply by machines that were connected via ethernet.

Since most modern laptops have a wireless facility, I think it would be sufficient to have a usb wireless dongle (or internal pci) connected to the admin machine (or even, with some programming the netboot clients). This would provide for laptops by producing a hotspot, via which all requests for internet connectivity would be directed through a "captive portal" for authentication. All this would need some fancy programming...but we do have a budget for this. Overall I want this setup to be as "just works" as possible.

Today Im going over to the Cybercafe today in Immingham to attempt to take the Smoothwall out of the equation and give the netbooting duties to the administration machine. I wll let you know how this goes.

Thank you all for your continued support. :)
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ecomoney
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#51 Post by ecomoney »

Well, today I took the Smoothwall computer out, as it wasnt needed. All of the netbooting and password authentication (via cafepilot) is carried out on the Admin computer not. This is now a 100% Puppy Linux operation. 8)

The Admin computer had been running Ecopup 0.7.3, but I found that the tftp server package MZ made wouldnt work on the 2.15ce based Ecopup system. Its now running puppy 4.2.1, with my ecopup package added (which provides the Java runtimes that the CafePilot Server package needs). I set this to run in the /root/Startup folder. I found I needed to include a "sleep 15" statement in order to ensure that the Admin computer had successfully connected to the ADSL router before it started the netboot server. The schematic for the cybercafe looks like the quick and nasty diagram I attached below (except neater).

Something I noticed was that running the Puppy connection wizard on the netbooted cybercafe is that an i.p. address was gained a lot quicker than they previously. I had a look in /var/lib/misc/dnsmasq.leases file on the Admin machine and found this...

Code: Select all

0 00:14:38:c7:0f:1a 192.168.1.141 * 01:00:14:38:c7:0f:1a
0 00:13:21:d2:65:16 192.168.1.110 * 01:00:13:21:d2:65:16
0 00:13:21:fa:e5:eb 192.168.1.154 * 01:00:13:21:fa:e5:eb
0 00:13:21:fa:e5:fe 192.168.1.144 * 01:00:13:21:fa:e5:fe
0 00:14:38:c7:15:53 192.168.1.161 * 01:00:14:38:c7:15:53
0 00:13:21:d2:6b:14 192.168.1.177 * *
These corresponded to the mac/i.p. addresses of the netbooted computers (I checked by running "ifconfig" on them). Does this mean that now the admin machine is issuing i.p. addresses on the network in preference to the ADSL router? If so would it now be possible to route (and control) the internet connections via the admin machine? Im hoping this can be done via a captive portal (running on "monkey webserver"?) that will authenticate the tokens for sale over the counter.

Cafepilot is quite a full featured program, but unfortunately needs java to operate. This means that the memory requirements of the client computers have to be at least 256mb to be operable. While Java is quite nice to have for web browsing in general, I would like to get it the memory requirements down to 128mb to enable even older computers (computer waste) to be able to be used in such a setup.

The cafepilot client programs (built into the netboot initrd.gz) currently have the 192.168.1.1 i.p. address of the admin computer (running the cafepilot client) in a configuration text file. I would like the netboot clients to, upon bootup, to "seek out" the tftp server from which they were started, record its i.p. address in the cafepilot client config file...so that the cafepilot client can then connect to the cafepilot server for authentication. I am thinking I can use NMAP to find an open port 69 (the default open on a tftp server) on the network.

I also keep finding the netbooted computers without the cafepilot client program running...I have a suspicion that the client is crashing. This effectively renders the netbooted computer free to use indefinitely. Im wondering if a bash "deamon" could check periodically if the cafepilot client was running and restart it if it has crashed?

Basically, for a high spec computer system, I would like to know how to use cafepilot/nmap "sniffing" (?), and for low spec (or wireless), a mac-filtering based system with a captive portal for authentication. The mac filtering option is also useful as were hoping to to add a wireless hotspot to to the centre so people who bring in laptops can connect and just use our connection.

Today I also had to do a training session for using pendrives. Although Ive got pmount to automatically appear when a memory stick pushed in (enabling the "mount" button to be pressed) it is still difficult for the staff to remember how to navigate to th .mnt/sda1 folder when seafarers saving pictures from email attachments, and when uploading pictures from digital cameras etc. As Puppies mission statement says "just works" and "friendly to linux newbies is still "a work in progress" :roll:

Im thinking I could replace the pmount program with one of the many "automount everything" scripts there are on the forum. I can perhaps hook into this script to set firefox's default download/upload locations to the newly mounted pendrive. Perhaps a "gxmessage" message box could be launched saying "Click on the 'eject" button below when you are done using your pendrive" (this would be "always on top") . It would then unmount all data storage devices safely when "ok" was clicked. This is important as many seafarers like to carry pictures their families send them via email attachments on their pendrive, or wish to send pictures on their digital cameras/pendrives back to their children.

The only other problem we currently have is webcams. Weve got the driver for the logitech quickcams compiled and working now. However, should the customer decide they need a webcam after they have logged in, they need to attach the webcam via usb and reboot for puppy to pick it up and start using it. I believe to do this without rebooting would require a "modprobe" statement...but how to do this automatically when the webcam is plugged in?

Well the "light at the end of the tunnel" is definitely visible now. Its been a long haul but we do have an operational linux cybercafe (with a few caveats and workarounds) that is making the charity some money through its operation...and I have some kind of plan. Tune in soon for the latest update :D
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MagicZaurus
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#52 Post by MagicZaurus »

I made the dnsmasq-package with Puppy 4.1.2, which might be the reason that it doesn't work on the 2.15ce.

Mounting of the USB-Sticks seems to 'accindentally' open the PMOUNT. I tried to put in an audio CD and it will directly open the media player. So usually for an USB-Stick it should open a ROX window with the contents of the drive. It doesn't happen like this due to a bug/feature in the pup_event_frontend_d script. It doesn't call the seperate partitions, but the drive (which might have a few partitions with different file systems) and then AppRun falls back to open PMOUNT.

Where does the average user expect to find the USB-Stick? I find the current way to have a USB-Stick icon on the desktop quite ok.

It seems your clients are getting the IP from the Admin PC. It depends now on what setting they get fot the Gateway and DNS if the traffic directly flows to the ADSL modem or not.

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Aitch
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#53 Post by Aitch »

Rob
I'm NOT an expert at this .......
(we may have some on the forum who'll confirm/deny/modify this?)

.....but would a second network card in the admin PC, using it as a bridge, feeding the 24 port switch, work?

Alternately, Re wifi, add a normal wifi enabled router to an output port of the switch, but give the wifi channel an IP address in the 10.0.0.1 range or something (see below) so it can be monitored/controlled independent of the wired traffic, maybe [don't put any wired connections on it]

You can get them cheap on ebay, especially early BT homehubs - they're a bit crappy, but I've bought them for less than a fiver....and they can bridge to extend around a building and early ones are very hackable - they changed code on later ones to stop it, ....erhum...... :wink: see

http://www.homehubhacks.co.uk/index.php?n=HowTo.Index

http://www.homehubhacks.co.uk/index.php?n=HowTo.Bridge


you can have 2 separate wifi links in the building as long as they [users] only get permission for the controlled one - use different IP addys for controlled wifi - 192.168.5.100 ??? and IDENTIFIABLY NAME IT, maybe
If you lock the other wifi down with security, but make the controlled one accessable via timed password routine....?
Surely someone can knock up a timed password routine....?
buy a password at the desk, works for an hour/more, clunk, buy another password, etc ?
doable?
Hell what do I know? :lol:

Edit: also see

http://www.jarviser.co.uk/jarviser/repe ... imple.html

http://www.jarviser.co.uk/jarviser/repe ... wired.html

Aitch :)
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ecomoney
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#54 Post by ecomoney »

Well, I thought that was too simple...I got a callout from the cafe this morning, and it was down again (on the day that the Chairman of the board of directors was in a meeting there!). The cybercafe wqs full of disgruntled seafarers whos first time on land in a month to contact their families could not be met. :evil:

The problem was with the cybercafe computers not getting an ip from anywhere, so they were not accessible. Running the internet connection wizard did get them connected once they were started. I think it was something to do with dhcp taking too long to respond, and the sitecafe client was starting without a route to the sitecafe server on the admin machine. I tried several initrd.gz remasters with "sleep" commands in the startup scripts but to no avail.

Ive hacked together this simple bash script. This should periodically check to see if there is an internet connection, and if there isnt, keep trying to renew it until there is one....

Code: Select all

#!/bin/sh
IP=$(ifconfig "$(ls -1 /sys/class/net | grep eth | head -n 1)" | grep "inet addr" | cut -d : -f 2 | cut -d " " -f 1)
clear 
while true; do
   ping -c 1  64.233.161.99 >> /dev/null
   if [ $? -eq 1 ] ; then
       echo "oh no...no google!" ;
		 echo "Attempting Reconection..."
		 # try to reconnect
		 killall dhcpcd
		 sleep 1
		 dhcpcd -t 5 eth0
		 sleep 5
		 IP=$(ifconfig "$(ls -1 /sys/class/net | grep eth | head -n 1)" | grep "inet addr" | cut -d : -f 2 | cut -d " " -f 1)
       if [ "$IP" != "" ]; then
          echo "We have an ip address...good! :D "
		    echo "new ip address is:-"
          echo $IP
          sleep 2
          clear
		 fi
   else
   	 echo "google found :D"  ;
		 echo $IP
    fi 
	 sleep 2
   clear
done
This Im going to add to the /root/Startup script on both the clients and the Admin computer tommorow. Also this way, cables that become unplugged can be plugged back in and the system will work again almost immedietely. This is even true if the modem becomes disconnected or the connection drops (I have a sticker on the modem which says "switch me off and on again if this light starts flashing", and an arrow pointing to the ADSL connection light!).

Since wiring and the modem dropping out has caused about 80% of the failures so far, this should radically improve the robustness of the system.

I lifted the piece of code to discover the IP address from the /usr/sbin/ppxe script in MZ's tftp server package. While I was in there I also discovered this...

Code: Select all

PXE_IP=$(ifconfig "$(ls -1 /sys/class/net | grep eth | head -n 1)" | grep "inet addr" | cut -d : -f 2 | cut -d " " -f 1)
IP_BASE=$(echo $PXE_IP | cut -d "." -f 1-3)
This returns the "subnet" (?) of the ip addresses given out by the adsl router. So if the client computer gets an i.p. of 192.168.1.101, 192.168.1.110, 192.168.1.129 or anything else, $IP_BASE will always return only "192.168.1". It should then be a simple matter to use a FOR...EACH loop to ping for responses from 192.168.1.1, 192.168.1.2, 192.168.1.3, 192.168.1.4 all the way up to 192.168.1.255. Each i.p address if a ping is returned will then be checked for an open port 69 (the port used for the tftpserver).

This will then reveal the i.p. address of the Admin computer, which can be written to the cafepilot client log file as the i.p. address to use to validate passwords. Currently the mac address of the server network card is set to statically give 192.168.1.100 under its "Advanced DHCP server options", and the same ip is hardcoded into the netboot clients config file in the netboot image. This way, the netboot client can discover where to validate its passwords, and special router configuration by non-technical cybercafe owners/operators can be avoided. The i.p. address can also be used I presume for mounting network shares, and mounting .sfs files of extra, less used, programs over the network (perhaps even swap files?).

@ Aitch Thank you for those links and for your help (I am not an expert either!). I have an old BT hub that had a firmware failure which I intend to flash and play with given time. Your solution would indeed be the best technically, but it would require knowledge of how to install and configure a second network card. The aim of this cybercafe system is for it to be able to be set up by someone with a low level of computer literacy (and no linux literacy) using "computer waste" they can pick up for nothing or next to it (think third world enterprise).

Ive been discussing the possibility with Phil (the centre manager) of using a usb or interneal wireless network card attached to the admin machine or the clients to allow brought in laptops to connect. This would route them via a captive portal on the admin machine where a pre-purchased code could be entered. This would then be entered into a captive portal, and the Admin machine would then know to give that mac address unrestricted access to the internet for one hour.

This would mean that cybercafe owners could add a wireless hotspot capability to their cybercafe simply by attaching an optional cheap usb wireless dongle to the usb port of the admin computer. Hopefully I could get this to autoconfigure should a wireless dongle be autodetected. This would mean that even if the modem does not have a wireless feature this could be added easily/cheaply with little disruption/configuration needed.

This would be open in security (no wep/wpa) meaning no difficult codes would be required to connect. Hopefully I can find a piece of code that will generate passwords from a dictionary, but add a couple of random numbers to the end....this should be enough to deter "brute force" attacks. Using the script described above, I could get the dhcp server for the wireless on the admin machine to use a different "subnet" to the one being used at the router.

@ MZ

so, its the "pup_event_frontend_d" script that gets run when a usb stick/cd is inserted? Great stuff.....hopefully now I can modify it to mount and display all active partitions on all devices when a usb drive (or cd) is inserted and display the contents. I would also like to add a shortcut in the GTK file open dialog (the one that opens when the "browse" button is clicked when adding an attachement). I assume these are in a text file somewhere. Ive found the average user (from using Windows, and other linux's) expects a window with a list of their files in to pop up when a pendrive is inserted. "/mnt/sda1" is too much for them to consider, so a shortcut/bookmark (labeled USB pendrive) in the open dialogue box, as the default location, would be fine. The icon on the desktop is almost always missed as the user generally has firefox maximized when they are using their webmail email.

I will research what a gateway and DNS is specifically :D

Another problem there is at the cybercafe is that firefox is crashing far too frequently....for the next netboot image remaster I will try the Wine/Windows Firefox/Flash browser combination which I have found gives much smoother results when watching streaming flash video on the web.

Sorry to overload with so many issues in one post :roll:
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MagicZaurus
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Joined: Mon 05 Jan 2009, 17:35

#55 Post by MagicZaurus »

It might be good to split up the different problems and put up seperate threads for them. For exapmle the feature to open a ROX window with the contents of a USB-Stick when it is plugged in. I expect nobody of the guys who might actually know how to do this is attracted by the thread tittle 'The Mission'. This feature should be of interest to many people.

Another one might be how to make it easy to share an internet connection with a Wifi-USB-Stick.

Then at the end your 'job' is to assemble that all together for you internet cafe solution and maybe make the billing system.

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ecomoney
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#56 Post by ecomoney »

Your absolutely right MZ, I will get posting.
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cthisbear
Posts: 4422
Joined: Sun 29 Jan 2006, 22:07
Location: Sydney Australia

#57 Post by cthisbear »

ecomoney:

Can you please look at the sound in your Cybercafe release.

Really painful to get it going.
Very off putting for newbies....and moi.

3 times I tried it on 2 machines.

You've been there before so you'll know this feeling....
the first time I fiddled around and got lucky and the
mp3 song I was trying worked.

OK! I said....I'll remember that............hmmmmmmmm!

Next time it wouldn't work.

On a customers Vista machine I retroed back to XP,
I cheat frugalled your release on it as well.

Bumbled around trying to get the sound going
for nearly 20 minutes....so can you please adjust
the settings so that I can hear the Woofy first time.

I want to give this release to a second hand comp shop,
not far away. He liked Hansamben...for his kid.

He could always give this away as a freebie to customers.
Also mate....how can I hide away the hidden partition
easily.....permanently...so it won't automount.
Just on the desktop.

One other thing.
Next release can you change the main file and save file
to be named.... ecopup.....so it doesn't get confused
with the main release.

I realise the amount of work that has gone into this.
So apologies if I seem ungrateful.

NOW...next request.

Got anyone over there who could give you
an Indian translation. This would be a Puppy killer release.

Something to think about.
This comp shop owner would really like that.

Regards Chris....enjoy your holiday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCJAtYIXsn4

Ah! Ray Davies...might buy this.
Only got 30 Kinks albums but...

http://www.raydavies.info/www/main.php?content=blog5

The Kinks Choral Selection

Ray sings Waterloo Sunset.
Last edited by cthisbear on Wed 19 Aug 2009, 05:22, edited 1 time in total.

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ttuuxxx
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#58 Post by ttuuxxx »

ecomoney wrote:
Another problem there is at the cybercafe is that firefox is crashing far too frequently....for the next netboot image remaster I will try the Wine/Windows Firefox/Flash browser combination which I have found gives much smoother results when watching streaming flash video on the web.

Sorry to overload with so many issues in one post :roll:
Maybe its time to switch O's versions? 2.14X-v8 has FF3.5.2 and flash 10 which streaming flash works fine and also I already added the startup script, Since your version is based on 2.15CE then you should be able to swap over everything. If I was in your place I would :wink: . Then maybe you could join our team and help bust the final small bugs?
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

cthisbear
Posts: 4422
Joined: Sun 29 Jan 2006, 22:07
Location: Sydney Australia

#59 Post by cthisbear »

ttuuxxx:

Did you see Barrys' post??

http://puppylinux.com/blog/?viewDetailed=00995

Thanks mate.

Chris.

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ttuuxxx
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#60 Post by ttuuxxx »

cthisbear wrote:ttuuxxx:

Did you see Barrys' post??

http://puppylinux.com/blog/?viewDetailed=00995

Thanks mate.

Chris.
Hi Chris it runs and auto-updates perfect, its been in use on 2.14X for atleast 3+ months and has never crashed and has auto updated from beta->rc->stable without a glitch. Also it works perfect on Dpup 746, But when gposil switched to the newer kernel FF3.5 was dead in the water, so he's sticking with the older kernel for now. I haven't seen FF run so well on puppy since series 1 :), Too bad about the new kernels, or could even be glibc versions, 2.14X has the latest gtk,glib etc but an older glibc from 3 series, and 2 series kernel/xorg, the rest is new, pretty much, lol

ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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ecomoney
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#61 Post by ecomoney »

Hi All, back from my hols early through lack of cash :roll:

Ive posted requests for ethernet autoconnect and USB pendrive automount, and already got some good feedback and information. Patriot has written an ethernet autodetect script that Im keen to test/be tested, and Ive got a lot more information (much from mikeb) as to where to apply the late nights and coffee to fix the USB problem.

The Puppy Version Im using at the moment is 4.2.1, with Firefox (my ecofox 2.0.0.20 from Ecopup 2.15ce that Ive transposed over), as well as gyachi, amsn 0.98 and skype 2.0. These are "all the applications needed for daily use". Ive also modified the startup script not to run the xorgwizard (by renaming /usr/sbin/xorgwizard to /usr/sbin/xorgwizard2 8) ). Im not sure if this has contributed to the problems autodetecting sound that you are having chris. The Alsa sound wizard is still in there unster Start>Setup, which should fix your sound problems. Essentially, I believe disabling hardware profiling may have caused the sound detections routines not to run at bootup.

This really doesnt amount to that much development and testing of the puppy setup itself, most of my time has been spent getting my head around the netbooting concept, as well as finalising the hardware required, and dealing with wiring problems at the cybercafe itself (which has caused most of the problems so far). I wouldnt recommend the setup for commercial use as yet. Chris I think you might be better off showing your friend Ecopup for the time being.

Anyhow, I recieved via text while I was on holiday that the cybercafe is all systems go and has been functioning fine without my intervention for the last five days. The 100% puppy setup seems to be stable, so next time I am over there I will release and upload what I have done so far.

@ Ttuuxxx

Ive been keeping up with the 2.14X project, and been impressed so far. I understand the strategy of using an older kernel, updated with the latest drivers and libraries is a good strategy for supporting the widest range of hardware possible (I learned this from this thread). I also understand that with Puppy Linux aiming to be a "just works" distro for "Linux 'Newbies", it should steer clear of bleeding edge kernels/software in favour of the tried and tested.

From my tests with 2.14X I am convinced of its technical stability, speed, and its ability to run on a wider range of hardware. For this reason I have already been looking at it as a candidate for the system in use by the cybercafe. Although the computers at the Immingham cybercafe are high spec, I want the system as a whole to be able to operate on much lower spec equipment than that currently being used.

Judging by the current dominance of much less efficient, expensive and unstable operating systems, speed, stability and cost are only small parts of the bigger picture of what it takes to create a successful operating system. Ive spent four years now distributing, demonstrating and supplying Puppy Linux based systems, and listening closely to the feedback I've received from the people using it. Overwhelmingly they say that, although they appreciate the speed, stability and cost, it is far too difficult, complicated, and cumbersome for them to use on a day to day basis as their main OS. Overall I estimate the "retention rate" is only around 30%...for every three people that try it, two people return to using Windows. What is needed is "just works" simplicity, with a shallow learning curve to attain basic computer functionality, and no assumptions of any prior linux knowledge.

The infuriating thing is, the changes necessary to achieve this are, technically, very easy to accomplish....wizards and autosetups...changes in terminology, error messages, context sensitive help etc. This is the main area in which Puppy needs to improve to become more widely used, recycle more older equipment and give more people access to the hugely beneficial resources of the internet. Ubuntu (notwithstanding its unreliability, time to install, and hardware requirements) addresses many of these things, so I know it is possible with Puppy too.

In short, I believe Puppy 2.14X, 4.2.1, dup or whatever FAR from being "finished" in terms of meeting its objectives.

The aim of the Mission project is to research just exactly what is required so that people with no prior linux experience can try it, use it and like it. It is a testbed for new usability features and changes to Puppies user interface and wizards.

OK, Ttuuxxx, like I said, 2.14X is currently the frontrunner in terms of the stable foundations of the system that will be eventually booted. I have a few barriers that need to be surmounted before this can happen however.

1. For the "experiments" at the cybercafe to work, the "subjects" need to have no preconceptions, the system in use there therefore needs to be on first look to the untrained eye at least extremely "reminiscent" of another more widely used OS.

2. Currently were using a JAVA based billing system. I hope not to have this requirement soon which will mean that a system such as 2.14X with no java package can be used. This will also help lower the hardware requirements.

3. ATM, 2.14X does not currently have a netboot ability (although I believe I could add it).

4. Currently 2.14X (and in my opinion all puppies) does not contain enough programs for Communication/Instant Messaging, a very popular use of computers. I need to incorporate "on the fly" loading of additional SFS files over the network with NFS (using the routines in ChoicePup as a base perhaps).

5. At the moment, I know that the management of the cybercafe are happy(ish) with the setup they are using, so Im reluctant to change it just yet while I get these other issues resolved/researched. My personal circumstances means that I must get myself some kind of income, or I will again be marched off to the government work programme where I will be of no use to myself, society or Puppy Linux.

So, to answer your question I cant install 2.14X at the cybercafe in the short term, but in the future I would like to.If you would work on the usability issues weve already identified (graphical xorgwizard, pendrive mounting, and ethernet connectivity) then this would certainly much "improve" 2.14X considerably over previous puppies of any version number. I would be happy to work with you (or anyone) in achieving this.

Thanks for tuning in.
Puppy Linux's [url=http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=296352#296352]Mission[/url]

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#62 Post by ecomoney »

Just to let you know, Ive edited the first post to include a summary of the issues discovered so far, the Puppy Linux Mission Objective to which it applies, and a link to where work is being done to remedy the problem.
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#63 Post by ecomoney »

Ive managed to squeeze a few hours in at the cybercafe today, and Ive uploaded the software we are using, as Ive had it confirmed its been working without any problems for the past week.

Ive uploaded it here

http://www.ecomoney.eu/cyberpup/release0.1/server.zip

This is a zipped up pup_save-server.2fs, which when booted will automatically set up netbooting. It does include the billing software, but the netbooted clients are currently hardcoded to look at the ip address 192.168.1.1, where it expects to find a computer running the cafpilot server. We currently have the mac address of the admin machine assigned via the router to always give 192.168.1.1 to this machine (I would really like the netboot clients to "seek out" the admin machine by scanning all ip addresses in the local subnet/range for a netboot server...or open port 69, I believwe nmap can be used for this).

Also, the cybercafe client zipped above has a common fault I have found with puppy as long as I have used it. On of the cafe operators downloaded a large file, and not understanding its folder heirachy, saved it to /root (the default), this filled the pup_save-server.2fs file, and at next reboot the icons disappeared, as /root/My-ROXapps/puppypin could not be created. I managed to recreate the puppypin file which has put the standard puppy desktop shortcuts back on, but without their graphics...so it looks really scrappy. I must put this fault in the summary of findings in the first post as its been outstanding for so long now (years!).

Some good news, Sunburnt has created a "just works" script to access a pendrive when it is plugged in. Currently however it does not created the needed shortcut in the GTK save/upload dialogue boxes generated in firefox, so I cannot deploy it as it is. This project is documented here

Now I need to test the ethernet auto-reconnect script that Patriot has written here...

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=45629

Back soon! :D
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#64 Post by ecomoney »

No go on the ethernet-autodetection wizard either :cry:

I think Ive found the fault cthisbear reported earlier. The headsets on computers wernt working. It was only when I opened start>multimedia>gsmixer that the audio instantly started! Ive shown the staff the "workaround" for the time being, but I would really like this solved so when the resident "expert" (who actually knows how to start programs!) isnt in the cybercafe can still have sound. I assume this bug effects all current Puppy 4.xx series too.
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#65 Post by cthisbear »

" It was only when I opened start>multimedia>gsmixer
that the audio instantly started! "

Good one Robert.
I knew that it was something simple.
Just couldn't see why, the next time I tried.

Your Cybercafe is very handy for playing most media files.

But how do I drag the VLC icon to play ISO movie files?

Thanks mate.........Chris.

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