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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects
The Mission
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John Doe

Joined: 01 Aug 2005
Posts: 1689
Location: Michigan, US

PostPosted: Wed 22 Apr 2009, 02:32    Post subject:  

ecomoney wrote:
John Doe wrote:
Maybe the person driving the BMW 323 could make a small donation to Barry.

That might help with the Mission.


What BMW?


Sorry. Upon closer examination it looks like you are correct. I thought the car to the left of the van was one.

The wheels, some parking lights missing and other things give it away.

I guess I've just got fine tuned hot rods on the mind. Smile

Best of wishes on your ventures.
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Wed 22 Apr 2009, 21:45    Post subject:  

John, your sharp attention to detail and your readiness to admit to and rectify faults are exemplary!

Can you compile?

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John Doe

Joined: 01 Aug 2005
Posts: 1689
Location: Michigan, US

PostPosted: Thu 23 Apr 2009, 02:25    Post subject:  

ecomoney wrote:
Can you compile?


compile what?
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Mon 27 Apr 2009, 23:45    Post subject:  

Generally....we lack good compilers.

The cybercafe should have been installed today...however Ive put it off four days so I can take part in the bugfixing process of 4.2.1

I explained it to the management, and they were extremely understanding. This bodes good for the future.

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droope


Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 814
Location: Uruguay, Mercedes

PostPosted: Tue 28 Apr 2009, 10:25    Post subject:  

Why not use 4.1.2? Confused
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Thu 07 May 2009, 00:26    Post subject:  

Quote:
Why not use 4.1.2


I plan on using many Puppies/Puplets here, it is an open testbed for all. Can your puplet pass the Puppy Linux Mission test? Cool Laughing

Today I visited the Mission, and setup two machines and the wiring. There was a conflict between the smoothwall and the existing "sonicwall" firewall, which currently supplies wireless connectivity to the Admin side as well as the windows computers.

I plan on sending the connection Logs via the very helpful guys on the Smoothwall forum, who will hopefully diagnose the problem. The admin side is planning on getting their own (separate) internet connection soon so this wont be a problem. The current support contract for the Windows XP computers there has now expired, so theyre living on a "wing and a prayer" for the time being.

Im calling again on Monday to see what else we can do.

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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10843
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Wed 13 May 2009, 14:20    Post subject:  

Hey Ecomoney, you said before you'll be the tester, well I haven't seen you around the Woof Upup software section I started, Woof is at alpha7 now and well next is beta, plus those package might be going to the repo soon, So we need them to be tested, inside and out. Once they get to the repo, they usually don't get updated or deleted. So if you don't start helping, I will not answer to any of your complaints for series 5. You decide either help or keep it to yourself. No sense in waiting till everything is up and running and crying blue murder.
ttuuxxx
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=41937

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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Wed 13 May 2009, 22:00    Post subject:  

Ive been to the Mission again today, and had fun setting them up a separate internet line.....they were running the XP cybercafe and their admin XP computers off the same wireless network...and they were all unpatched!!! Surprised

They now have their own dedicated line for the cybercafe side of things, and are wireless free (the passing ships radar played havoc with it). Because of the undocumented wiring in the building, I didnt have time to figure out the connecting the Smoothwall. Weve got two computers set up (with hard disks disconnected), which I have already netbooted once from the Smoothwall box though, so I know that side of things is ok. I will be heading there tommorow for a full day sorting it out. Its a weight off my mind knowing that whatever I do the Mission admin side is now safe...I wouldnt want to get on the wrong side of a "committee" Smile

@ Ttuxxx

Testing is really important (it ensures QUALITY), but what with setting up the Cybercafe and trying to get some kind of release/testing procedure in place (for these purposes) Ive been very busy. All the time involved in the forum has meant that both my personal income and my "Real World" projects have fallen behind schedule. Rolling Eyes But it was worth it in terms of what now exists for the future of Puppy Linux. Having a "linux newbie" testing centre will be of benefit to Puppy's new/future users, but only if the research from it is taken into consideration by Puppys developers and Council,

For those that havnt read the recent history, last time I did any testing of the next PL (4.2), I submitted a few random bug reports/suggestions, and then ended up with my name in the release notes as a tester of the only top ten distro that couldnt open native M$ Word documents or print reliably (which is STILL ATM our offering on www.puppylinux.org). Embarassed When I pointed out this might pose a problem to "Linux Newbie" target audience...well.... here is one independent Linux Bloggers take on the whole "debate" that followed, who knows a fair bit about "abuse".....

http://www.computerbob.com/wp/helping-victims-become-survivors-part-8.php

Im sorry I to need to bring all this up again for our fresh readers on this thread, and remind old readers of the whole saga Ttuxxx. I hope we have both learned a lot from it and it will never be repeated. I am certainly no "victim" Cool

I will make some time to take a deeper look at Woof, but I am quite busy setting up this project at the moment - which will benefit puppy more in the longer term. I have found the time to have one quick look at it, as well as shown it to just a single "linux newbie". I will report back what they had to say about it, and I will also submit a package for testing to the thread you mention.

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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10843
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Wed 13 May 2009, 23:19    Post subject:  

Ya ok just remember this is the base, and what you are showing to new users, is the outcome of a not fully tested base,lol and your doing it again, man get it straight, This is what leads to what you have, what happens today or not today can effect your future, as you say"In the real world" well your real world revolves around this one, you sure as heck have demonstrated it. So if you don't want to be a tester, fine, then keep it to yourself later on, like if you submit a bug after the release, no naming names, pointing fingers etc, just report what happened and what was running when it happened, thats it. Also take what you get and the quality/bugs you get, and if you want to blame someone, take a mirror and have a look. Because I'm just going off of what you said about wanting to be the main tester and any issues that arise will be your fault for over looking them, within reason of course, like we couldn't blame you for not checking every network driver etc, but general applications yes.
ttuuxxx

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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Thu 14 May 2009, 06:03    Post subject:  

Testing and feedback are important Ttuuxxx, and I will do what I can around getting the Mission Testing Centre and the HanSamBen Kids Educations project.

From what Ive seen already, the main barriers to people adopting Puppy Linux over a Windoze OS are usability issues, not specific bugs. From my three years of experience using Puppy in cybercafes and peoples homes, the current "top ten" of issues that need addressing for PL to become more a popular OS are..

1. Extremely difficult to install without in depth linux knowledge (here)
2. Lack of the most popular applications available through the installer (FF, OO, aMSN,Skype)
3. Looks "old", Grey Win98 look/console loading/Xorg config is unattractive to new users.
4. Pup_save.2fs fills up, without resizing automatically.
5. Java does not install automatically to support things like facebook chat/ebay.
6. The internet connection wizard is unintuitive, and does not open automatically when needed (i.e. opening Seamonkey with no active Connection)
7. Single click on the desktop creates unfamiliar first impression.
8. Mousewheel over desktop make application "appear" to crash (here).
9. Mime Types are incomplete + unhelpful errors if filetypes are not supported.
10. Lacks Internet connection sharing feature

Most of these issues would be relatively easy for an experienced programmer to resolve, however, because these issues to not effect developers personally there is a lack of will to resolve them....Puppy needs a "hero" to get us to No. 1 Wink

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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Thu 14 May 2009, 09:13    Post subject:  

Hey Rob

Why not set this as your users default homepage/desktop link?

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

Solves lots of 'expectancy problems' IMHO

Aitch Smile
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Thu 14 May 2009, 22:37    Post subject:  

@ Aitch

Yes the "Linux is Not Windows" argument, that link was very good reading Aitch thanks for posting it...the cybercafe will be having its own home page however, which I will be writing.

The link does describe Linux "in general"...Puppy is a special type of Linux...its a linux that aims and goes out of its way to be "Friendly to Linux Newbies". This does not mean making it a clone of Windows....it means just that....making it friendly to people that have not used linux before.

I often explain Linux/Open Source using the car analogy. Windows is like a car wth the bonnet welded shut....you get access to all the easy bits like the accelerator and the steering, but if it ever needs any repairs, maintenance, or "tweaking"/customizing then you are stuck.

With Windows, a lot of the reason for my grey hairs, lost years and frown lines was that it was impossible to get under the bonnet to see what was actually going on....this is one of linux's great strengths Im not saying "dispose of all the difficult bits/concepts", I am saying put them away out of sight of the "newbie" so they dont confuse them, and automate the main functions that get it "just working" straight away. Cool

2 examples...

The GRUB config/installer...the grub boot method and the screens are VERY flexible once a person knows the concepts, however...should we expect users to edit text files, manage partitions and boot with "puppy pfix-ram" just to be able to recycle an old pc that is too old to run Windows? Shocked

The answer would be to keep the utilities that are already present, but label them "advanced installer". The default "Installation Wizard" would be a much simpler (and less flexible) one that would work for them in the majority of cases...they just have a pc with one hard disk that they want to boot with either Linux/or dual boot linux/windows.

Internet Connection........ideally there would script called "check4connection" that was run when the user clicks on the icon for any internet-requiring applications (seamonkey/gaim etc), but before the applications actually launched. This would check for a connection (possibly by "pinging" google.com) and if a connection was not found would display a message such as

Quote:
You dont appear to have an active internet connection, would you like to set this up now (Y/N)


Which would either continue and open the app, or launch the internet connection wizard. a tick box with "dont show this again" (seamonkey style) would provide "bug-me-not" facility.

This would prevent the user thinking that EVERYTHING has been set up automatically...currently when new users boot puppy, they open up the internet browser and get a "Page cannot be displayed" error...its up to them then to find the "Network Wizard" which will provide them with a connection....something thats not intuitive ("Network" does not mean "internet" to most users), and will only add to the myth (?) that Linux is for Linux developers with in depth computer knowledge. Saying click the "connect" button does not help..."connect what..a printer/a pendrive?).

In short, puppy needs to be designed around a users "workflow", prompting them and teaching them about linux and its concepts as they go along/without getting in their way.

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bones01

Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 371
Location: Melbourne, Aus

PostPosted: Wed 27 May 2009, 23:43    Post subject:  

If the mission statement is the main guide, then that should help to solve the question of what are the main problems to solve.

i really enjoy using PL, particularly when my laptop will load puppy in one minute compared to the 15-20 minutes for xp. But, when xp is going, it goes pretty well and I can add other programs to it without much trouble.

I look forward to puppy being like this too. I'm using choicepup now, and it's terrific. The flexibility of adding sfs is great.

I also like puppy because it's australian.

Good luck with what you're seeking to achieve.

Bones

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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun 2009, 08:11    Post subject:  

AT LAST! The cybercafe is in and working!



The Missions first Linux user...who came in and started using the p.c. while I went outside for a cigarette...he didnt realise it was Linux...or knew what linux was!

Our first usability issues to be addressed...

Its only running on two of the ten P.C's at the moment (ones where the Windoze had failed), and these are only on three days of the week.

Currently it needs the manager to come down and set up xorgwizard and the internet connection every day. Hes only at the Immingham site three days, and its too complicated for the other staff to use.

I already knew that the "just works" aspect of Puppy was incomplete in these areas, and is long overdue for a re-work.

Code contributions for the following identified features would be very welcome.

Net-Setup

I know that more experienced linux users use a myriad of ways to connect to the internet, but the vast majority of people connect either via a ethernet router or an ethernet modem. For this AutoDHCP works just fine in 99% of cases. Puppy could simply do a check on loading that there is a cable plugged into eth0, and if there is, run autoDHCP to obtain a connection automatically. Currently puppy just boots, and when the browser is opened it shows a "page cannot be displayed" error....not user friendly.

Xorgwizard
The xorgwizard, while being a useful script in a small minority of cases, is simply just another "hassle" in most. It detects the correct resolution in the vast majority of cases (and even suggests it to the user). Its had a massive amount of testing and bug reports for it have all but dried up. It also looks far to much like the windows blue screen of death...full of complicated codes. I have seen many first time linux users see it, and they automatically assume when they see it something has gone wrong.

My suggestion here would be to simply set up with the detected mouse, resolution at the second lowest detected available resolution, and to pup up a dialog box asking for the preferred keyboard layout. [ctrl]+[alt]+[bkspace] would bring up a "setup menu" offering the xorgwizard text based configuration editor or dropping to the command line for the the serious linux users.

I have it on promise from the Manager that, should these issues be resolved, then we can roll out Puppy linux to the rest of the cybercafe Very Happy ...but for the moment I can see his point its practically unusable as it is in this environment (i.e. around linux newbies!).

Many thanks to everyone who has helped in getting Puppies mission completed this far.


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gposil


Joined: 06 Apr 2009
Posts: 1305
Location: Stanthorpe (The Granite Belt), QLD, Australia

PostPosted: Thu 04 Jun 2009, 08:54    Post subject:  

Rob,

Are the two pc's in the mission diskless workstations...or do they have hard disks?

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