Project Coordinator Threatened ....

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Should WhoDo Step Aside as Coodinator

Poll ended at Fri 24 Apr 2009, 11:14

Yes
10
13%
No
65
87%
 
Total votes: 75

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tronkel
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#91 Post by tronkel »

WhoDo wrote:
Puppy development is not a democracy, nor has it ever been
That is entirely correct and has been the case from the start of the Puppy project. Had Puppy been a democratic entity, it would never have got to where it is today. Someone needs to have the last word.

That may be frustrating for Rob, but that's life.

That's not to say that the users should be totally ignored as per a dictatorship, but the co-ordinator has the last word on any issue and does not have to accept even minor arm-twisting. I don't blame WhoDo for wanting to get out either. I would be the same, but don't let this business with Rob put you off doing Puppy in whatever way it suits you WhoDo. This ought to be a pleasant hobby experience for you and nothing more. Rob's problems have got nothing whatsoever to do with you. I doubt if I would have put up with a tenth of what you have had to listen to as project-co-ordinator.

Motto of dictator: take it or leave it - no-one's forcing you to use Puppy - end of story.
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WhoDo
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Re: Everyones Replies

#92 Post by WhoDo »

John Doe wrote:
WhoDo wrote:I apologise to the rest of the online community for the length of the argument and this especially lengthy post in response.
No need to apologize.

That was EPIC!!
Yeah, I think I had the 1812 Overture playing full volume in my head at the time, too! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Béèm
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#93 Post by Béèm »

ecomoney wrote:
testing testing 123 wrote:testing testing
Cripes your right Béèm!. It seems I just had a lesson thank you I will use that method in future. I really should know more about forums.

Would you also tell me next how to type your name with the correct inflections without copying and pasting?

Im still not a "terrorist" tho. :roll:
@ecomoney
One is never too old to learn. :wink:
Having a Belgium keyboard, I just push the key for the accented characters.
Be assured, you don't have to buy a Belgian keyboard.
Accented characters in Windows
I am not in puppy now so I can't test, but google is a good friend.

And don't worry, you can type Beem as well, I won't mind.
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ecomoney
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#94 Post by ecomoney »

Thanks for the link to the story about Buddha. I believe similar things, though I did not realise it was buddhist. The link for anyone reading is here

http://www.citehr.com/155355-buddha-abu ... ments.html

Considering Ive been likened to a "terrorist", told I "contribute nothing to puppy", implied I "contribute nothing to society" and that I "dont take responsibility for my mistakes" and accused of "threatening" and "bullying" , its is a good thing that I do already hold that belief.

What I have done is asked you to fix the bugs in 4.2 as they are quite serious to "linux newbies", asked you to give it a priority for this reason, discussed how we might avoid those bugs in the future, and offered to co-ordinate it myself if you dont have the time. I also let you know in advance and in private if you were not willing to let me know I would ask the wider community publicly, so as to avoid a "rift".

Ive never to my knowledge resorted to "observations" about your character, and when Ive mis-communicated, Ive apologised for any offence Ive caused. If were going to get spiritual about this (which may not be a bad thing) then perhaps you should take note of this
Matthew 7:2 - Bible in Basic English wrote: For as you have been judging, so you will be judged, and with your measure will it be measured to you.
Source

Ive known Bankers, Investment Managers, Millionaires and stockbrokers as well as community centre volunteers, nurses, sewage workers and binmen, and come to the conclusion that personal income is a poor indicator of a persons worth to society. What society needs more than just one more person paying taxes and a mortgage, is someone who will speak up and do something when something isnt right.

I save the taxpayer far more money than I cost them through my free work with community centre, hospitals, schools etc so I lose no sleep at night over it. But you are right I shouldnt "Expect" anyone to pay my way, so Im going to take your observation as a "gift" and make sure I get myself "signed off" soon....selling recycled puppy-pc's perhaps?

In the meantime, you have clarified where you are with the 4.2.1 bugfix, confirmed you are actually going to do it, and let the community know a lot about what has been discussed privately between the main development team. A very dedicated and talented coder (with broad shoulders) has even fixed a lot of the bugs introduced and produced something from which to start from. I am happy, as will be many new puppy users/ex windows users when it is released. Dont windows users pay "taxes" too?

Back to work everybody....weve got a modern day printing press to make!!!

Thanks everyone for my "learning experience."[/quote]
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#95 Post by mcewanw »

EGO versus ECO

The open source model would conceptually appear to deny all attempts to impose authority, yet its discourse of "newbies" and "gurus" exposes more than a little of its underlying arrogance.

But what do the open source community respect most: The dictatorial approach or the diplomatic (imperialism versus brotherhood); clean, green and environmentally friendly, or, HE who SHOUTS loudest?

Let the community decide!

But which is Stallman (since he is surely the model whose personality and proclamations most defines the open source movement generally): the arrogant child-like dictator or the selfless (perhaps somewhat patriarchal) provider; or is he some more complex other?

And is there EGO and ECO in both camps? Or is the answer 42?

A thought provoking and amusing thread, which is almost as funny as the Shingledecker/Andrews DSL debacle. But my vote is for Barry Kauler (rather than against anyone else); it is his Puppy.

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Aitch
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#96 Post by Aitch »

Derived from the Buddha post
[quote="Aristotle"]"Criticism is something we can avoid easily by saying nothing, doing nothing, and being nothing

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#97 Post by big_bass »

I am thinking about the safety of my fellow puppy users
and I just would like everyone to be prepared well
so nobody gets hurt

I bought one of these suits a few months ago
and managed to survive the flames


it is more difficult to get work done wearing this damn thing
so I built in a puppy OS controlled cooling device :lol:
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droope
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#98 Post by droope »

mcewanw wrote:EGO versus ECO

The open source model would conceptually appear to deny all attempts to impose authority, yet its discourse of "newbies" and "gurus" exposes more than a little of its underlying arrogance.

But what do the open source community respect most: The dictatorial approach or the diplomatic (imperialism versus brotherhood); clean, green and environmentally friendly, or, HE who SHOUTS loudest?

Let the community decide!

But which is Stallman (since he is surely the model whose personality and proclamations most defines the open source movement generally): the arrogant child-like dictator or the selfless (perhaps somewhat patriarchal) provider; or is he some more complex other?

And is there EGO and ECO in both camps? Or is the answer 42?

A thought provoking and amusing thread, which is almost as funny as the Shingledecker/Andrews DSL debacle. But my vote is for Barry Kauler (rather than against anyone else); it is his Puppy.
You obiously didn't read how ecomoney complained... But he has admited he was on a bad day.

Whodo could end this today, but, i think a bit of his way of doing things comes from thinking "If I let him get what he want's, he'll continue demanding from me".

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#99 Post by SirDuncan »

Well it looks like the fire has died down on both sides. I can't say that it is a satisfactory conclusion, but at least it looks to be over. As someone said above, Ttuuxxx has set a good precedent for how to handle this type of situation. I hope that exchanges like this do not become commonplace in the Puppy community.
Be brave that God may help thee, speak the truth even if it leads to death, and safeguard the helpless. - A knight's oath

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#100 Post by Pizzasgood »

So, after weeding out the fluff, the problem as I see it is was this:
  • There were some bugs.
  • Ecomoney asked for them to be fixed and a new iso be posted, ASAP.
  • WhoDo said that there are fixes available, but he wants to hold off on making the new iso until there are more fixes to put in it.
End of problem.


Yet, this simple thing was inflated to massive proportions.

Why? Bad communication? Impatience? A refusal to accept a decision?

In the end, what was accomplished? A promise that the bug fixed iso will eventually appear (which should have already been obvious), after which WhoDo intends to resign.

In other words, all that this served to do was lose us a coordinator.

Yes, it also resulted in ttuuxxx's bug-fixed version, but wouldn't it have been much simpler if Ecomoney had simply popped one of those out himself? I believe he already said he's perfectly capable of doing that... (Yes, his point was that he shouldn't have to - and see where that got us?)


Maybe we can take this, and previous occurrences, and learn from them: When somebody has listened to and acknowledged your gripes, and stated plainly that they're going to do what they're going to do, stop griping. Once a person has made their decision, further complaints are a waste of time, and a pain in the ascii.

From what I've seen, most of the problems we've had during 4.2's development were because somebody had a problem, explained their issue, and then continued to complain over and over about it.


I'm not meaning to sound accusatory here. I understand the need to make one's ideas known and the desire to do whatever it takes to make Puppy as good as it can be. I'm just hoping we can learn from this, so we don't repeat it.
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#101 Post by MinHundHettePerro »

Béèm wrote:Another one is user friendly configurability.
Why should I have to go to edit a file to get my clock in 24 hour format. A nice gui to configure such functionality and other ones would be more then welcome.
Something like this? 8)

EDITED: Since this pet has already been linked to from ordinary, less dramatic threads, here's a clean v-0.2. 8) Alright, Béèm?:)

Cheers/
MHHP
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Dual Xeon 3.2 GHz, 1 GB, nvidia quadro nvs 285[/color]
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Béèm
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#102 Post by Béèm »

MinHundHettePerro wrote:
Béèm wrote:Another one is user friendly configurability.
Why should I have to go to edit a file to get my clock in 24 hour format. A nice gui to configure such functionality and other ones would be more then welcome.
Something like this? 8)

Cheers/
MHHP
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#103 Post by Béèm »

Béèm wrote:
MinHundHettePerro wrote:
Béèm wrote:Another one is user friendly configurability.
Why should I have to go to edit a file to get my clock in 24 hour format. A nice gui to configure such functionality and other ones would be more then welcome.
Something like this? 8)

Cheers/
MHHP
I'll try it when in puppy.
Good looking. Should be in every puppy from now on, but maybe as part of the jwm configuration. (and without the drama :wink: )
Tried in upup Jaunty.
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language

#104 Post by raffy »

@Pizzasgood: It could be something like this from Robert: "You're the coordinator, but in the meantime that you are holding off the bugfix release, I hope you don't get offended if I post an interim bugfix version."

@WhoDo: My sympathies for the emotional stress (added to physical fatigue) that this caused. I hope your family will still want to hear the word "pup..." after this. :)
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Re: language

#105 Post by ttuuxxx »

raffy wrote:@Pizzasgood: It could be something like this from Robert: "You're the coordinator, but in the meantime while you are sitting on your ass, holding off the bugfix release, I hope you don't get offended if I post an interim bugfix version and shove it in your face."

@WhoDo: My sympathies for the emotional stress (added to physical fatigue) that this caused. I hope your family will still want to hear the word "pup..." after this next statement:) Why the hell do you think that you run this release? You've done nothing but bitch and complain, really you need to take a chill pill and go call someone who actually gives a crap what you think, I'm the Coordinator and the buck stops here! Got it chump!! and please I do mean that with the utter most respect for you :wink:
LOL ttuuxxx
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#106 Post by mcewanw »

droope wrote:You obiously didn't read how ecomoney complained...
Well that's certainly not the case droope. I also noted how ecomoney described his own feeling of guilt concerning his failing when given project coordinator role of an earlier CE release. All credit to him for admitting the over-zealous misplaced sense of pride that caused that relatively unimportant "failure".

However, having long been aware of ecomoney's long-running Puppy-based cyber cafe implementation, I do feel that his concerns were understandable. Furthermore, he was diplomatic enough not to air these concerns publicly, which as far as I see demonstrates that he was not trying to undermine the position of the Puppy 4.2 release project coordinator. It was the latter who revealed the comments, which is also fine in terms of informing the Puppy community of what goes on in the background, but I do think the aggressive response against ecomoney was entirely unwarranted considering ecomoney's own tact (I'm referring to his original PM rather than the heated argument that later ensued, though even ecomoney's later posts demonstrate a great deal of restraint and diplomacy).

I have never imagined ecomoney to be a technically-oriented Puppy developer, and hence am not overly surprised that he failed to deliver on an earlier CE release. Of course, it can also be the case that technical competence does not guarantee competence as a project coordinator (though it is convenient and useful when both skills are evident in the same individual; as is the case with Barry Kauler of course).

There seems to be no doubt that ttuuxxx saved the day in terms of providing a "fixed" version of 4.2, but that seems to have been an independent effort rather than something initiated and coordinated "officially" as a main release (or am I wrong about that?). Indeed, for some time now, ttuuxxx appears to have demonstrated his flair for producing excellent Puplets, keeping up to date with fixes and patches, and generally putting in an amazing amount of personal time providing versions of Puppy that work as flawlessly as we have all come to expect. However, I suspect ttuuxxx himself prefers working "in the background" on such matters, since project coordination necessarily involves using up a great deal of time on relatively untechnical matters (needing good "people skills", a thick skin, and a firm determined approach which nevertheless never fails to be polite, kind, and absolutely diplomatic and respectful).

Since the likes of Barry Kauler are hard to find, it would seem best to have two or more individuals in the project coordinator role: one to take the bulk of "the heat" when problems occasionally and naturally arise, and one to rapidly provide the technical fixes. Ttuuxxx is certainly the natural candidate for the latter role (though his ealier puplet productions suggest he wouldn't be too bad for the former either - why... he even lives in Australia - the home of Puppy - even though he is no native of that continent).

As for Ecomoney, and the comments I have read being voiced in criticism against him, I can only shake my head in disbelief at the attitude of some members of the Puppy community. Puppy is only as important as its acceptance and use in the community, and hence the unparalleled contribution of ecomoney's efforts. Regardless of his admitted pride (which oft comes before a fall...), the man has undoubtedly (it seems to me) done more than anyone to introduce Puppy to the "mainstream" non-technical computer user. Certainly, we all contribute to the marketing of Puppy by telling others about it and demonstrating and setting it up for our friends and acquaintances. But most computer users in the world don't read the Puppy linux forum posts or have friends who do. So how do they find out about Puppy linux; normally they don't. Step in ecomoney with his public Puppy-based cyber cafes and a potentially huge public audience becomes aware of Puppy linux - that is the source of potentially true growth and product sustainability (not that ecomoney is Bill Gates...). With that in mind, I can't help but find it disgraceful that anyone should comment negatively about ecomoney's efforts - particularly in relation to his personal life in terms of paying his due taxes and so on - I am personally unemployed and there is no fun in that; ecomoney's cyber cafes are no small feat and he can be forgiven for his obvious but only natural pride. Like ttuuxxx, ecomoney clearly gives an inordinate amount of his time towards Puppy, and his reward is surely far from huge in monetary terms; all credit to the man and his community spirit which manifests itself in an impressive UK public manner. If he was to switch distributions (and let's face it, there are alternatives around nowadays) that would be a serious loss to Puppy status in the UK at least.

Ecomoney is no ttuuxxx, I feel, but then, ttuuxxx is no ecomoney either; they are both very impressive in terms of their incredible efforts and demonstrative achievements however; regardless of how selfless or otherwise their motivations.

Puppy needs to get back the "golden days" of Barry and MU (regardless of the actual individuals who now need to take on such roles); bullying is certainly the wrong approach in terms of generating a genuinely trusting public, and surely ecomoney was quite right anyway: major faults in a distribution need quickly provided official patches (Barry K used to do that; version 2.17.1, for example, was released very quickly to remedy some flaws in 2.17). It has to be a bad policy to ever delay any fix and surely that has to be agreed (the software development industry accepted that a long time ago, and the open source community has long prided itself in its quick release of patches, hammering Microsoft in the process; the open source movement doesn't have too many ecomoney's however, bringing the likes of Puppy to the notice of the general public); it is not a good argument to say that Puppy is just a hobby project which has always had its priorities dictated - in practice, Barry K always tried to satisfy all Puppy users - hence the likes of ecomoney choosing to support his creation.

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#107 Post by ttuuxxx »

I'm just thinking why we can have a minor bug fix release like once a month? say like the 1st day of the month, and have a major release like when ever it happens? Bug fix releases are simple, as long as they are just for fixing bugs and not introducing new software, that would take more testing etc. But bugs that have been squashed and well documented like the ones I included in that unofficial update was easy once the packages were made and posted on WhoDo's thread. But like what we did in 4.2 building that would take a few months to sort out so that would be a major release without any specific time constraints and any over the board outburst will be met by shunning the individuals, lol.
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#108 Post by Pizzasgood »

I don't see any big reasons why we couldn't. The main thing, under the traditional method of Puppy development, is that two trees would have to be maintained. No big deal. In the Git method it would also be fairly simple (and more space efficient) - keep separate "stable" and "development" branches. People could pull from and build a Puppy based on the stable branch whenever they want, and an official release could be made monthly, including whatever fixes happen to have been applied. (Unless none have, then don't bother).



As for rapid bug-fix releases, I can understand a desire to wait a week or two, in order to consolidate more fixes into a single release. Otherwise you wind up with a lot of releases, one after another. So long as the patches are provided, it is fine (and more efficient) to wait and consolidate. Personally, my limit would be two, two-and-a-half weeks. After that I'd feel obligated to release whatever I have, and then start another bug-collecting session.
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#109 Post by ttuuxxx »

Also as ecomoney goes, I found a perfect program for him
http://cycle.sourceforge.net/
But we should make it puppy policy he should have to share his results monthly with us, so we know when to stay away and ignore him.
LOL ttuuxxx
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#110 Post by puppyluvr »

:D
Ttuuxxx, that was sexist and intolerant....I like it.. :D :D :D

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