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Project Coordinator Threatened ....
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Should WhoDo Step Aside as Coodinator
Yes
13%
 13%  [ 10 ]
No
86%
 86%  [ 65 ]
Total Votes : 75

Author Message
trapster


Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 1999
Location: Maine, USA

PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr 2009, 10:18    Post subject:  

WhoDo wrote:
Quote:
Honestly, guys, am I the only one who can see how deluded this guy has become?


No, you're not.

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trapster
Maine, USA

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Currently using Slacko AND lupu52 w/ fluxbox
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puppyluvr


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 3186
Location: Chickasha Oklahoma

PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr 2009, 10:20    Post subject:  

Very Happy Hello,
Well, this is simply ridiculous...A Vote?? Come on...I applaud your intentions and transparency in this situation, but it is unnecessary..

No one voted you in...You were chosen by the man who knows better than any, what it takes to be the coordinator of a Puppy release...
You are the man appointed to do the job, and shouldnt worry about others think..
When you accepted the responsibility and headaches, the hard work and lost time, you also accepted the authority...

.Perhaps a quick "Thank You, and when you`re in charge, you be sure and do that." is in order, but not a vote...

You are doing a good job, no question about it...
My concern lies in the underlying tone of your posts..

WhoDo, are you wanting to step down???
Sad
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droope


Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 814
Location: Uruguay, Mercedes

PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr 2009, 10:22    Post subject:  

Ok, so this is over.

I think I understand both Ecomoney's position and Whodo's, you should give each other a break Smile
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10747
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr 2009, 10:59    Post subject:  

Hi WhoDo

I posted on page 3 early today"
Hey WhoDo

I started editing/updating the default 4.2 official release to shutup ecomoney once and for all, then you posted the above response, do you want me to continue updating it or trash it, I was only doing it to make this headache go away and buy you some time Smile
ttuuxxx
"

You answered some of my other questions and never answered that one so I just kept working on it and figured it would help out. I know its not a official release but it might be good enough for the time being until we get more bugs in. I just didn't like where this was going and wanted to help you out Smile
Since I had this all setup today, I built a Opera 10 Version with NetSurf for CUPS etc, I'll upload it maybe tomorrow.
ttuuxxx

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gerry

Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 946
Location: England

PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr 2009, 11:24    Post subject:  

If only there were another distro to change to, to get away from all this bickering.....

Gerry
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01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 7785
Location: qld

PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr 2009, 11:42    Post subject:  

gerry wrote:
If only there were another distro to change to, to get away from all this bickering.....

Gerry
Ahhhh, there's not... so... bad luck! Twisted Evil
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davesurrey

Joined: 05 Aug 2008
Posts: 1201
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr 2009, 11:50    Post subject:  

Irrespective of who should coordinate the next Puppy and what is the correct approach to issuing bug fixes for this release, I do find it quite wrong, WhoDo, that you have seen fit to publish in an open forum what was Private correspondence. Unless of course Ecomoney knew you were about to do that beforehand and gave his consent. Private means private in my World and, I believe, even in the rough and tumble that is the Internet!

I also find some of your wording distasteful such as the use of the word "terrorist".
WhoDo wrote:
Quote:
You cannot defeat terrorists by acceding to their wishes

and in the general negativity you show to someone who you have issue with. I had you for better than that.

Starting this thread and using such tactics does no service to the Puppy that you say you wish to support.
Dave
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01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 7785
Location: qld

PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr 2009, 12:09    Post subject:  

@davesurrey

Ignoring the current political state of the world, "terrorist", is a fair term.

An attack is an attack. Defence is defence. Fair is fair.

Without ignoring the current global status, well, we leave everything open then, don't we? I'm a wuss, attack me, please. Use whatever means at your disposal. Bark louder. I'm scared.

Stick it to whoever, I say. How the world is. I didn't do it... or did I?

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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 5685
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr 2009, 12:12    Post subject:  

I suppose Ecomoney attempting to coerce Whodo by threatening to go over his head to Barry K in said "private message" is in the best interest of Puppy? Or the Puppy community?
I agree with a couple of earlier posts, this thread should probably end soon.WhoDo was basically picked by Barry K which is good enough for me and it is pretty obvious about the motivations of both Ecomoney and WhoDo. Demanding things because Puppy is causing problems in his business model probably wasn't the best option.
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davesurrey

Joined: 05 Aug 2008
Posts: 1201
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr 2009, 13:35    Post subject:  

01micko:
I am really not sure what you are trying to say. But if it is that anything goes then I don't think that's positive, communal or helpful. From reading the pwidgets thread I thought you were a better person than that.
On an issue like this calling someone a terrorist is unjustifiable.

@James C:
Congratulations. You completely missed my point.
I'll spell it out. I am not going to take any sides in this childish thread. But posting a private message on a public forum is just wrong. Got it?

Dave
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Béèm


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 11782
Location: Brussels IBM Thinkpad R40, 256MB, 20GB, WiFi ipw2100. Frugal Lin'N'Win

PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr 2009, 14:09    Post subject:  

My opinion is still in favor of WhoDo and team.
However may I repeat I have done before:
In stead of rushing to bling and new functionality, let"s analyze the actual product from the point of usability or user friendlyness and handle these issues first, altho I must say that effots have been made already.

A simple example: If I have to rename, in ROX, a file I get a panel/window of fixed dimension, mostly showing part of the file name. I have to expand that panel/window to decently change the name.

I don't know if this can be corrected by the team however.

Another one is user friendly configurability.
Why should I have to go to edit a file to get my clock in 24 hour format. A nice gui to configure such functionality and other ones would be more then welcome.

I am sure everybody can find more like this 'annoyances'.

_________________
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr 2009, 14:39    Post subject: Everyones Replies  

Thank you everyone, there has been a lot of valuable discussion on this thread, and Im glad to see some progress to. Ive been very busy with the cybercafe project, promoting puppy and just generally surviving so Im sorry I havnt been able to take a more active part. I feel it is only right to take the time now to respond to each of your points individually.

@ NathanO

Quote:
What would help everyone at this point is a time line to do the 'Bug Fixed' 4.2.x or 4.3,


My point exactly Smile

@ Techtype
Quote:
You should remain as coordinator -- an almost impossible job that you handle with knowledge, skill and tact that is irreplaceable.


Quote whodo "no one is irreplaceable" - Sorry to quote your Private Messages's publicly whodo.

Quote:
I can't imagine anyone else having the job. ecomoney should become the second known person to be banned along with his duplicate ids and the ip range of his urban zone if possible.


Yes, its the butt of all Britains Jokes, but its pretty average compared with the rest of the world in general. Makes for good testing...and broad shoulders.

@ Gerry
Quote:
I'm still using 4.1.2. Why? Because I don't want to download bugfixes for 4.2 in bits and pieces from the forum, I'm waiting for a bugfixed version. That's ok for me, a long-term Puppy user, but a new recruit will go back to whence he/she came. So I think a bug-fix version should be on an urgent timescale.


Them going back to Windows is exactly what I wish to avoid happening, a very valid point. If linux newbs cant open their word documents...they will.

@DaveS
Quote:
I just cannot get around the fact that 4.1.1 wifi, printing and Abi worked for me, and 4.2 did not.


That is, at the end of the day, is all that matters to most normal computer users, thanks for making that clear.

Quote:
OK, the community found and sorted the bugs, and posted patches which fixed everything, thank you all for that. So why on earth is there no 4.2.1 with these patches? There has to be an underlying reason, we just dont yet know what it is.


Quote:
Should Whodo step down? Absolutely not! 4.2 was well co-ordinated and is a very nice distro. Should there be a 4.2.1? Of course. So why not?


Why not indeed.

@ Trobin
Quote:
There is no doubt that the Abiword fix should be fixed. However I don't see any reason to toss out the coordinator over one bug.

Perhaps a note could be put on the web page explaining how to fix the bug, until a corrected version can be uploaded.


I totally agree. I did put a note on the comments with a link to the fix provided by Ttuxxx (hosted on my server) in the comments section (WhoDo berated me for that!). My website/mirror went down shortly afterwards because my Bandwidth for the month was exhausted.

@TechnoSaurus
Quote:
I think it would be a good idea for Warren to pass the baton to someone of his own choosing (at least every other minor release) and let the lead rotate. This would allow him some rest and also get a different perspective each time, since each alternate lead would make more fixes/upgrades/improvements in his/her area of expertise. We should try to get a Google summer of code project for our students out there (Pizzasgood, MU? others...). and allow some of the other major contributors to have a hack or two at it during the rest of the year.... therefore I vote for neither, maybe just step aside from time to time.


If bughunting is not to WhoDo's taste, then that would be very good solution to the problem. I even offered to co-ordinate this bugfix myself (in another PM not made public), but whodo mistakenly thought I was trying to take control. Miscommunications...

@ Patriot

Hmmm ...

Just my thoughts here ...

Quote:
1. Whodo should be given fair chance to follow this through right to the end. I see no major reason to do otherwise.


Hear Hear

Quote:
2. Is ecomoney attempting a coup d'etat on puppyland against our current "Benevolent Dictator" ?


Definetely not Im not trying to say I could do a better job either. Im just trying to point out that a broken wordprocessor/printing system/wireless etc requires a hasty bugfix.

Quote:
3. I understand ecomoney's arguments for bugfixes but I disagree with his methods. He has several other options. Yet, he chooses to pursue this path. It is increasingly looking to be like a personal conquest.


Ive scrutinized my methods, yes, a lot of what Ive done I would do differently. Ive never pushed for a bugfix before, next time I will do it differently. Life is a learning experience. Sorry for any offence.

Quote:
4. This persistence with the abiword bug as a big huge major issue is hilarious, at least to me. Its not life threatening in any way. Abiword is a tool, no more than that and if it broke, then many other options still exists. As far as I know, no abiword developer has come aboard puppyland to explain the issue and we have no maintainer for abiword (yes, we have packagers. anyone can do that). Anyone wants the position ?


You are a very seasoned developer Patriot, you know that when you have a bug you can track down the fix for it, or fix it yourself. If for example you were a "linux newb" with a broken windows computer who needed to get your CV out in a hurry in these testing times, then Im sure you would take it a lot more serously Im sure.

Quote:
5. Abiword bug has been identified and with a fix offered. That's good enough for now. Perhaps a better way to let the intended user know of the fix should be given some thought.


An updated ISO would be the best way, but in the meantime yes this would be a very good idea. I will post another one in the comments.

Quote:
6. At least one derivative with bugfixes has appeared. If that's not good enough then build one to suit one's own needs.


Several have now, but Ive witnessed first hand the trouble these bugs have caused IRL. Of course I could fix it for myself, but in the process a lot more good would be done by fixing it for everyone.

Quote:
7. I believe some sort of a service pack could be worked out while waiting for the next build/release version. Perhaps someone is willing to pick this one up ?


Could all the patches be merged into one? That would be great.

Quote:
8. Can ecomoney if and as the coordinator guarantee that the next version will be free of any bugs ?


No, I cant, no one can. If (highly theoretically) I was, and if there were any major bugs I would make it a priority to release a bugfix version pretty swiftly. I would also review my methods of bug-catching to try and make sure that something like this didnt happen again.

Quote:
9. All this barking about bugs is fine if it's being done constructively. Everyone's a critic. Unfortunately, many does not know how to do it constructively.


I agree....all this could be done just as well being "toned-down" a bit. I think Im doing pretty well already considering some of the things that have been levelled at me for bringing up the topic of a bugfix release....however badly.

@ Big_Bass
Quote:
maybe whoever selected you to run your business
should reconsider their choice


The unemployment office incorporated my business late 2004, to try and get me off their books. Ive had better things to do than just make money though. Im sure they regret it Wink

@Sir_Duncan
Quote:
Ecomoney is a valuable member of the community with a lot of end-user experience It would be unwise to excommunicate him over a minor difference of opinion and some misunderstandings. If we started doing that, most of us would end up out of the community eventually.


THANK YOU Sir Duncan. Your signature does you great justice.

It is just miscommunication most of it too.

@MU
Quote:
I'm not a student, but jobless. At moment I just take 2 courses Java/C#, that enhance my chances to find a job again.
I almost had one - but the main client of the company was a bank , so at moment, all projects stopped.
I have a meeting in another company on tuesday.

So despite being jobless, I can not reliably plan on projects, that would take several "fulltime weeks".

Concerning Whodo:
I was requested, if I would be available to play a leading role for Puppy 4.2.
I had to reject, because of the mentioned time issue.
At moment, I'm often so tired in the afternoon, that I just can provide some basic fixes to Newyearspup (NYP), but can not solve all bugs, or add all language patches.
So since weeks, NYP is in a "Release Candidate" status.

Saying this, I must emphasize my highest respect for Whodo, who managed to coordinate all the different project teams of Puppy 4.2, like the language team, and all others.
This is an enormous job he does.


Im glad to see you too have "come out" as being unemployed too Mark. How many computers do you think have been saved from landfill with your valuable contributions over many years? How many people now have access to the knowledge and resources of the internet because of puppy? Open source is the modern "printing press" that will bring us out of these "dark ages". Germans (I speak German as a second language) are very forward thinking people I have found, especially towards environmental and money issues. You owe Society nothing in my book Mark, they owe you!!!

Quote:
Ecomoney sometimes sounds a bit rude, but I have no problem with it, as I worked commercially for a year on Muppy. So I know the pressure related to that.


Ive yet to work commercially, the cybercafe is a charity too.

Quote:
This is, because he has the pressure, to maintain a "product".
Puppy itself is not a "product" though, so the organization follows some different rules.


Yes, so I see.

Quote:
Not even a month has passed since the release yet - so we are certainly not yet retarded concerning bugfixes.
Creating a bugfixed version of a comunity system will take a while. If you start uploading a Puppy 4.2.1, where only some small issues are fixed, people will say: "oh god, how can you release only so few fixes!".


But they are very important fixes for our end users MU. People will always "say" things. If they are important for our users we should do them.

Quote:
Simply give Whodo the time required for a proper bugfix release so that you will not be disappointed then.


I am worried that I have seen no preparations for this.

@ Aitch

Quote:
I've worked in the music industry with 'stars'

On stage they are heroes, offstage they can be a-holes


Yes, I play guitar/bass/keyboard but do not have time for a band now.

Sometimes in my job I feel like an A-hole too....Im the one one that takes all the brown sticky stuff for the bugs in the new puppy after telling all of my clients how great it would be!

@Tronkel

Quote:
The point I was trying to make was, that if Warren had made such a fundamentally disastrous job of 4.2 as Ecomoney asserts, then there is no way the click-throughs would have been capable of elevating Puppy to No 2 ranking, either directly or indirectly.


I think it has made it to number 2 because 4.2 had such a focus on useability (thanks to Zigberts work) and because it was the first official puppy (since 1.07) to actually not look like Windows 95. This is something that I have seen people REALLY want. When they find these bugs it will put them off downloading the next one. That is why a swift bugfix is so important.

@ Hillside

Quote:
WhoDo needs to decide if he wants to put up with the kind of pressure such a project entails. I think he's done an excellent job and encourage him to complete the project.


I would like to encourage him too. I hope I have not put him off future projects.

Quote:
Sometimes everyone ought to step away from the computer, enjoy the day, and maybe have a brew.


Im just putting the kettle on.

Quote:
I haven't quite figured out how ecomoney is running a business plan based on Puppy, but he can't expect his business model to dictate how Puppy proceeds.


@ Tronkel

Quote:
Puppy Linux has to be neutral as far as user-specific requirements are concerned - otherwise how could a base version get built?


I suggest you read the puppy linux mission statement.

Quote:
So Rob has to accept that this is the case. Having said that, there is no-one stopping him from asking around the forum for help with his specific requirements. Thing is, he has no mandate to lead Puppy Linux from the front in any sense. If anyone wishes to join him in producing a derivative, then that is up to the individual contributor.


I know Ive made a few enemies by bringing up the the 4.2.1 bugfix issue the way I have. This will have repercussions in the amount of help people are willing to give me around the forum, and I am far to inexperienced technically to do the work on the code on my own. For instance, I really need Ttuxxx's help to compile a working gCompris (excellent kids educational suite) for a local preschool (amongst others around the world) with the gStreamer libraries but I will be very surprised if I get it now. I have been surprised by Ttuxxx recently though...

Quote:
Also to be borne in mind is that anyone who is willing to lend a hand with any specific issue is donating his time free-of-charge and in no circumstances is to be criticised, insulted, or complained at in any way whatsoever, should the results of his efforts appear apparently to fall short of expectations.


I hope that doesnt apply to me. Everyone needs to know where they can improve. Ive learnt I need to come across a lot more constructively to avoid all this in the future.

[/quote]

@01micko

Quote:
Isn't tripe where BS is made?


Lol

Quote:
Ecomoney, consider this. If you are a certified MS system builder, then, by their EULA, you are resposible for all OS support. It is clearly stated. If OTOH you purchase a licence as an end user then Microsoft is responsible. With that in mind, shouldn't all critique by your clients be directed at you? You know what I'm refering to, all else see the Firepup 4.3 thread.


As a user of Puppy Linux (or any open source package), I also have an "unwritten contract" to pass on the concerns of the people that I know use puppy to its developers. I believe Red Hat (and I am NOTHING like them) contribute a lot of bug reports to the kernel project and its applications from its own commercial users (and the fedora project).

Yes I take responsibility for the inconvenience (and negative ebay feedback) that Terry has suffered as a result of these bugs, and Ive certainly tried hard enough to get them rectified. I explained to Terry that Im only a very small part of the whole process and that he could/should come on in person to let his feelings be known. I really did think the guy was going to give me a good kicking...such is the way around here.

Quote:
If you endorse anything, and it could be an outboard motor, or a jar of makeup, or a rocket ship, then, surely you (as in the endorser) should cop some responsibility. If I buy an icecream and it has lumps in it, do I scream at the manufacturer? NO. I take it back to the shop where I bought it and demand a refund.


And the shop takes it up with the manufacturer. If they fix it he keeps selling their ice cream.

Quote:
Now, did you purchase a Puppy Licence? No. Are you you in business? Presumably, yes.


"No"....though Ive invested a lot of my time into it, and "Just"....Ive just sent a big fat circle to the tax people this year.

Quote:
What I see that you are trying to do is produce without production costs... hmmmmm. We all try to minimise costs. Raw materials do come at a cost, unless you are a recycler (ah yes, I'm hearing it now... "but I am a recycler!"). Puppy is not, and will never be a recycled OS. Sure it can run on recycled kit, which, for a guy like you, is a bonus.


A bonus for me and anyone else that cant afford a new computer with all the Windoze Liciences! Its also quite a bonus for the planet that doesnt have so much computer waste to pollute it.

Quote:
Granted. Times are a little tough.


Thats and understatement if ever I heard it!

Quote:
Does that give anyone the right to express negativity toward a free, as in beer, and free as in freedom, resource? Half a dozen bugs and you can't wait to get in the pest control. I'd hate to see you in the tropics!


No it doesnt give me the right to express negativity. I was very angry when I found out about the bugs, and I was over negative. I apologised and Im still sorry. This has all snowballed partly because of my lack of communication skills (as MU rightly points out). I have a reponsibility to improve that, and make sure it doesnt happen again.

I do have a right to point out bugs, and my opinion of their degree of "seriousness" to the other users I come into contact with. I can see that this post has quite a few people (all with lower post counts) that agree with my point, even if they dont agree with the way I have made it.

I dont think that just because a person works for free, they should automatically be immune to receiving any feedback about how they might do things better, especially on such an important project as Puppy. Feedback is part of any ongoing process whether free or paid. They also have the responsibility to listen.

[quotel]The point is this. Unless you are sure of your product, and I mean have full confidence in it, don't sell it. Don't direct poor souls who you sold it to, to us. Deal with it yourself. Know your product. It's Business 101.[/quote]

Good point. Just to clarify Terry, and a select few of my other more experienced "clients", VOLUNTEERED to test Puppy 4.2 (as did I). Most of my clients (over 100 of them) still use Ecopup 0.7.1.x, based on Whodo's last project 2.15ce..with a LOT of customizations from me. Ive set it up as a dual boot for them with ecopup (one of its features is that it can co-exist with standard puppy). It effected Terry particularly badly because he recycles computers through ebay. Perhaps I had better explain to him exactly what testing a new release entails. Lesson learned here too.

Finally

@ WhoDo

Quote:
raffy, this isn't about Robert getting a solid base for his Cybercafe project. He has already said that he is quite capable of applying the patches provided for that.


Thank you.

Quote:
It is instead about Robert dictating when is the appropriate time to release an official update!


Its about me (and others) saying it needs doing. Woof will not be "stable" for some time after such a major overhaul (and from what I understand it is major). We need a stable version to cover us while this happens, and to avoid new users getting a "not as good as it could be" impression of puppy linux. Until recently I had seen nothing to say this was happening.

Quote:
The last time I checked that decision wasn't his to make!


Nope. The decisions are up to the community to make. You are there to "co-ordinate" them.

Quote:
Robert seems obsessed with the idea that he is the only one with a hotline to the Puppy user base; by which he generally means his clients. I keep trying to tell him that the Puppy community is much wider than that, and not all of them share HIS concerns about the 4.2 release and its problems.


Not all of them do agree no. The two "camps" seem to be the developers, to whom the bugs are not a problem, and the users..to whom they definetely are. Since a developer (in fact the lead developer Ttuxxx) has actually put in the effort to produce a bugfixed version, why not make everyone happy?

This forum and the puppy websites are not a "hotline to the Puppy Linux" user base either, although they are useful towards this. If you want to get a feel for who is they are the people out there in the community, the majority of which dont post. They try it, if they like it and it "works...no hassles" they keep it. If it doesnt open M$ Word documents straight away, they go back to M$ Word that does.

Im not the only one out there using puppy in the community, but I am one that will file bug reports, and give suggestions and feedback. At times when its serious enough, I might even dare question the project co-ordinator if there are plans to produce a bugfix soon. Sometimes not very well....but I am prepared to "just do it".

My comments in RED
Quote:
@All - It is clear from some of the posts here that I need to reiterate (WHERE?) why I believe an update release has not been appropriate, although I have posted my reasons here on the forum before.

1. Puppy 4.2, code named "Deep Thought", was only released a little before Easter. If we posted a so-called bug fix update within a week or two, how much "Deep Thought" would the wider Linux community have perceived went into the original release? We would have been a laughing stock, despite being in the same position as many other releases when it comes to relatively MINOR bugs. It is all about credibility with Linux. When you reach the top of any tree, there are those who want to bring you down as quickly as possible - usually so they can take your place. Puppy is no different in that respect. Look at the commentary on Distrowatch when PCLinuxOS made it the top, and how there are those now crowing about its recent fall from grace.

2. The identified bugs have repeatedly been characterised by ecomoney as "showstopper" bugs. To my mind that demonstrates a general lack of understanding of the term. Everything in Puppy 4.2 works as it should for MOST people in MOST situations. Nothing is "broken" in that sense. Abiword processes words and CUPS prints them. Yes, there are things that need to be fixed, and there have been fixes posted in the forum in the appropriate place. Having a link to the Patches & Updates thread on the Download page is a good idea. Yes there are things that worked well in 4.12 that seem problematic in 4.2, BUT telling people to revert to 4.12 gives an entirely negative impression from its source; the Puppy community. We would seriously lose credibility by publicising that we had launched a "faulty" product when in fact it had fewer bugs than almost any other release before it! Im not sure about that, perhaps in number but not in seriousness4.1 was followed by 4.11 and then 4.12 - not unusual for a new format release. We needed 4.2 to say to the wider community "Barry's having a rest but Puppy will go on regardless". Posting quick fix releases is counterproductive to that, especially when the bugs are comparatively minor and relatively few in number.

The time is certainly approaching when it will be appropriate to release 4.2.1, or perhaps even 4.3 although the latter is considerably further off at the moment. The question I face every day is "Is the time right?", and so far the answer has been no. Every day since 4.2 was released and the first problem was discovered, ecomoney has been "in my ear", both through the forum and PM's, to pull the ISO's from our mirrors and upload a bug fixed version. I'd give him A+ for stubborn persistence if nothing else. I do NOT need someone else second guessing my judgements about when it is appropriate to release, and applying whatever pressure to get their own way. I have enough voices in my head already! Rolling Eyes What many of you don't know about the 4.2 release is that while there were some voices on the forum saying "it's not ready yet", there were many others INCLUDING BARRY, telling me it was time to release and not to worry about finding more bugs ..."there are always bugs"(sic) said Barry.

I have to be concerned with the WHOLE of the Puppy community, and protecting the Puppy ethos as well as our credibility. It would be a mistake to give too much credence to a few "squeeky wheels" crying for things to be fixed and fixed NOW! Although this is a community distribution now, and Barry has made that abundantly clear on his Blog and elsewhere, that doesn't mean it should be run by committee. You've all heard the story that the camel was intended to be a horse but it was designed by a committee! There is room for community input, and certainly room for some compromise to suit the community view of things, but ultimately there must be only ONE person making the final choices. Otherwise you will have anarchy and chaos will be its product.

I will leave the poll to run its course. I chose 7 days so even infrequent visitors could exercise their vote. On the early returns it looks like I'm going to be stuck with the job. I had secretly hoped that I could go back to a more sedentary involvement in Puppy. Wink I have no regrets about posting this issue here, as public as it is. I don't see it as airing dirty laundry. I see it as being fully transparent in our governance. There are no secret committees, no hidden agendas and no ulterior motives or hidden influences within the Puppy community development effort. That should now be very clear. I also don't believe the community should be asked to vote every time there is an issue to be decided, otherwise why bother with a coordinator; so no vote on a possible release schedule. If I supported that course we would be stuck designing camels instead of Puppies.

I am aware that Barry will be releasing a radical new "think piece" to publicise Woof! I am tempted to release 4.2.1 at or before that time in order to capitalise on any renewed interest in Puppy, but I haven't come to a final decision on that yet. I'm stockpiling patches and updates to that end at the moment, and the devs and packagers are quietly supplying those to me in the background.


Thank you for making us informed about all of these things. Im all for transparent governance too. I am glad you are planning a 4.2.1 *soon*, and I understand your point about Distrowatch. Timing and publicity are important.

Quote:
@ecomoney - while I don't like taking this course, I have decided that I will not respond to any PM from you again until I'm fully satisfied you understand and are ready to accept that your agenda isn't the only agenda or even the most important one. I don't believe you should be banned, but I do admit to secretly hoping I didn't have to deal with your bullying methods, regardless of how well intentioned they may be.


I accept it is not the most important one. Considering the type of work I do, the type of people I work with and the time I put into it, I would hope you consider it just one of the many important ones. My methods and questions, though not always best carried out, fall way short of "bullying". That is not a term that should be used lightly, or it dilutes the seriousness of when it does happen. Thats down to how you choose to take it as well though.

Perhaps you could post the rest of our Private Messages, including your own responses, not just the bits you have "cherry picked" out of context to make your point and paint yourself as the aggreived party. Perhaps you might withdraw some of the statements you have made about my character?

I do not really care as long as there is to be a bugfix for 4.2.

Quote:
@Other posters - I will attempt to answer legitimate questions about my choices in this thread until the poll closes. After that I will expect to be allowed to do the job for which I volunteered without having to publicly or privately justify my every decision. If that can't happen, then perhaps ecomoney is right and I'm not the man for the job. There is enough work to do without being required to explain every small step taken to achieve the goal. I am not really having FUN, but I am giving back some of what I have received courtesy of Puppy and the community and for the moment that's good enough.


Long may you continue. I will try and be more pleasant in the future.

Quote:
Q. Since when is using Puppy, and the hard work of the community of developers, to pay your own way considered to be "doing something for the Puppy community"?


When I use that work to provide feedback and testing to the Puppy Developers. My expenses for this project are practically nothing for the time Ive put in for it. If I was doing it to "pay my own way" I would go back to programming Visual Basic for Walmart on 40k a year and a lot less hours.

If you want to know how much Im getting for it, Im getting £400/$598 - when its installed and working. Its saving them THOUSANDS of pounds on what theyre paying now with XP. If Ecomoney Systems Ltd were a proper business, I could quite definetely sue myself for slave labour.

Im also going to offer some of the people that have contributed their technical expertise in helping the project some of the money too, as well as posting a commercial opportunity to someone to develop an open source solution to our time/billing problem.

Please do not consider me a selfish or money-oriented person Whodo.

Quote:
The link you provided simply points to your own self congratulatory publicity, Robert! Honestly, guys, am I the only one who can see how deluded this guy has become?


Are you "deluded" enough to think that as a project co-ordinator part of your role is to track bugs and accept suggestions from Puppys end users? That is my main purpose for this project, I hope you will listen.

Quote:
Robert, I intend to keep pointing out instances of your deliberate misinformation while ever you continue posting such tripe. You do remember what "tripe" is, don't you?


Please do, Im happy to accept your valued feedback.

Quote:
I think you may have misunderstood the consequences of ttuuxxx's generosity, Robert. I have absolutely NO INTENTION of posting the updated 4.2 ttuuxxx has created at puppylinux.org in lieu of "those buggy ISO's" you have so much contempt for. They are staying exactly where they are until I create the 4.2.1 update on the timeframe I have already outlined here. "He who has ears to hear let him hear" - Matthew 11:15


Then all of Ttuxxxes "valuable time" that he has spent preparing it will be wasted. Ive tested it as its gone along (though I dare not comment) and its well qualified a base for a 4.2.1 bugfix release.

If you want to get biblical...

Quote:
“Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.” (Proverbs 8:33)


But then again The Bible has been used over the centuries for justifying many things.

Quote:
You are evidently so obsessed by those ISO's at our mirrors, Robert, that I believe for you they have become an irrational symbol of the fact that you do not control either the direction of Puppy or this community! The ISO's stay! I can't say it plainer than that. Perhaps you had better read the WHOLE thread instead of only those posts you think are in your favour.


I would call it "Deep concern". In a world where 97% of people are Still using Windows/Mac, having a "starter distro" which wont reliably open or print documents created on that platform is concern. I have no interest in controlling the direction of the puppy community at the moment besides that. Your "crown" is safe on my part.

Perhaps you had also better follow your own advice.

Quote:
@ttuuxxx - Your action was well intentioned my friend, but a mistake nevertheless. You cannot defeat terrorists by acceding to their wishes and you do none of us any favours by letting Robert think he has had a victory. It only serves to reinforce in his mind that his bullying tactics are "successful", and so ensures that he will continue to employ them. Notice how he apparently only "has respect for you"(sic) now, when you seem to be doing exactly what HE wants?


Who the HELL do you think you are to compare me with a "Terrorist"? and then to accuse me of "Bullying"? George Flipping Bush?

There are times for taking critisism on the chin, and there are also times for standing up and saying something is OUT OF ORDER!

I have been man enough to stand up and apologize when I have said something which I later come to realise later is out of place, but I have NEVER once gone outright to insult you, call you names, or reveal your PRIVATE messages. I trust you too are man enough realise your comment too is a mistake, and apologize accordingly.

I understand you have experience in project management WhoDo outside Puppy Development. You also used to work as a Co-Ordinator for one of the "Work Trial Schemes" that the Government puts Unemployed people on in order to get them off the unemployment statistics...where most would not be if it were not for their own economic policies. I know about them I have been on one.

It may come as news to you that Open Source development does not have a "management heirachy". You cant just "kick us off the programme" and stop our money. You cant "dictate" what others choose to do with their own time, or what we can say. We have no reason to give you respect apart from the respect you give us.

Coming from a commercial project management and "Doley Bullying", to open source you will need to make an adjustment to that attitude. Get this...you are not my "boss". You cannot tell me what to say or what to do, any more than I can tell you.

Peer review - whether it be code or language is exactly what makes open source better than closed source. Dissent is a natural part of that process. I suggest you get used to it.

Open source development is an organic process. If there is a need, something will evolve. There is a need for a bugfixed 4.2. Ttuxxx has with the best of intentions done a lot of people a very valuable service here...if his work is still good enough for you now? Stand by your work Ttuxxx!

As a result of that last comment about "terrorism", my vote is still not cast. It would have been "NO".

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Last edited by ecomoney on Sat 18 Apr 2009, 15:14; edited 1 time in total
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Béèm


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PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr 2009, 14:59    Post subject:  

@ecomoney.
It really is a pity that all your quotes don't reflect who did write the quote.
It makes your post quite useless.
If you really want to use the quote feature, then do it the correct way if you want to be taken seriously.

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ecomoney


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PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr 2009, 15:17    Post subject:  

Do you realise how long it took me to get those quote tags to line up!!! And I did it for free! Laughing

I going to need a more detailed "bug report than that." Who have I misquoted?

I will upload "Replies version 1.0.1" as soon as I can. Wink

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Béèm


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PostPosted: Sat 18 Apr 2009, 15:25    Post subject:  

ecomoney wrote:
Do you realise how long it took me to get those quote tags to line up!!! And I did it for free! Laughing

I going to need a more detailed "bug report than that." Who have I misquoted?

I will upload "Replies version 1.0.1" as soon as I can. Wink

@ecomoney
Altho you didn't mention, I take it's a reply to my post to you specifically.
How can I say who you did or didn't quote correctly, as you didn't indicate who you quoted.

If you had quoted correctly, there would have been no misunderstanding then, unless of course you do this on purpose.

I would advise you to take a course in communication skills.

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