Project Coordinator Threatened ....

[Béèm]

I see no reason for WhoDo to step down, unless he feels himself that it harms his health.
There is no reason to get sick because of a project.
So, take the right decision.

[01micko]

Hmmmmmm....mmmm...m

The voting isn't working for me. Is Kevin Rudd planning to implement this voting system for federal elections? (due soon I'd say )

If it was working, I would sign up with another bodgy 24 emails and vote yes for each. Warren you're gone. Sorry.

Mick I'm not sure with what your saying? Do you support Warren or want to see him step down? What I take from what you said is that if you could sign up on the forum with 24 fake names you would vote for him to step down? And what have ecomoney replace him? You wouldn't be saying that? would you?
ttuuxxx

Was a joke of course ttuuxxx . I think WhoDo would have got it. If WhoDo sent us into battle, I'd go! OTOH, if Rudd did, I'd run!

[Pizzasgood]

@Aitch: Love the attachment. Roll on.


I for one am most certainly not banning Ecomoney. So there has been some argument. That's life. This isn't some fluffy sugary feel-good cuddle-party forum. Better to have arguments than to blindly follow the leader. Arguments are inevitable when you get a bunch of smart people together. Different minds view things from different angles and have different priorities and definitions.


I vote for WhoDo to stay in charge for the time being. He's done a great job. Much better than I could have done, even if I had the time. I do agree that over the long run, it should rotate, but that's long run. A person should have time to get a feel for what they're doing and do a good job.


When I get stressed, I take a leaf from Dune's litany against fear, and simply let the stress pass over me and through me, leaving nothing behind but myself.

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

Too bad that doesn't work to eliminate homework and paperwork too.

Another good source of stress relief is http://icanhascheezeburger.com/, though that one can make things worse if the stress is related to lack of time, and the issue demanding the time has not yet been resolved...

[pa_mcclamrock]

Please don't step down as co-ordinator. Please do give a bit earlier and more prominent advance notice of deadlines next time.

As for the proposed (or demanded) bugfix release, if you had to do a whole new release every time a few bugs were found, there would probably be no end of releases and release-related headaches. It's better, on balance (IMHO), that users who actually need particular post-release bugfixes should get ample assistance in finding them. I've fixed at least three reported bugs (or two bugs and one lack of a needed feature) in RemaX since Puppy 4.2 Final came out, and I'm pretty sure that three new releases (or even one) would not have been either necessary or desirable to get this done!

[01micko]

Hello All

WhoDo did (and is still doing ) a fantastic job of coodinating 4.2. Let us not forget that it is more than just getting a bunch of packages together and building an iso from unleashed. There is promotion to coordinate, documentation, numerous other details. Let's not forget WhoDo was crook for a number of weeks but battled on regardless.

As far as I'm concerned ecomoney's input is invaluable, as is panzerpuppy's and ... well... every puppy user's.

May I make a suggestion. Why don't one of us throw our hat into the ring and coordinate 4.2X CE? This would leave WhoDo free to bugfix 4.2 and coordinate 4.X or 5. In previous CE development, the Benevolent Dictator was not particularly involved directly, moreso he had an advisory role. If people like this idea, should we ask for noms and have a vote?

Cheers

Mick

[hillside]

WhoDo needs to decide if he wants to put up with the kind of pressure such a project entails. I think he's done an excellent job and encourage him to complete the project.

Sometimes everyone ought to step away from the computer, enjoy the day, and maybe have a brew.

I haven't quite figured out how ecomoney is running a business plan based on Puppy, but he can't expect his business model to dictate how Puppy proceeds.

[nic2109]

I have many things to say on this topic but will limit myself to just a few of them.

1. Warren has done a magnificent co-ordinator job and has set a very high standard. He will be a hard act to follow when he does finally get tired of the hassle.

2. Robert should try demanding that Microsoft or Canonical fix something immediately and see if they even notice him.

3. Robert has decided for various reasons to use Puppy for "Business Critical" applications despite knowing all about its development process and support models. He knowingly took the risk that things break and might not be fixed in a time-scale that is congenial to his needs. If that's not good enough then he should try something else that is more fit for purpose and offers fewer surprises. Like 4.1 perhaps - no-one forced him to use 4.2.

4. Puppy was rejected by the OLPC Project despite being probably the most suitable OS for the hardware. My guess is that the development and support status was partly (or maybe even mainly) behind that decision. If you are using a PC for critical work - and support of the vulnerable in their dealings with the state are really really worthwhile things to do - then you need to be sure of your tools. Choose more wisely next time.

5. When posting in a forum such as this - especially if (like me) you obscure your real identity - it is very easy to write things you might not say face to face. This can lead to ranting and rudeness which is unpleasant and unwelcome. Ordinary courtesy is worth a great deal, so can we please have more of it and much less demanding.

[raffy]

Could we change the title to "Personal differences over bugfix release schedule"? And remove the voting?

Just a 0.0002c suggestion.

[MinHundHettePerro]

Being the Benevolent Chief of Force does not make anyone the Malevolent Dictator.
Go for it WhoDo, bring on the Luftwaffe!

I didn't cast a vote, since I never vote for anything/one, only against, and as the Poll is phrased, against would be for, and there we are again.

just my two SE-öre - 0.0032 AUD

Cheers/
MyDogWasCalledPerro

[WhoDo]

@Whodo: You made Lobster's head swim with your long post- now he wrote 2.13CE for 2.15CE. Maybe the water is hot in these places.

Yum. Lobster Thermidor!

My advise: just post your proposed release schedule and we will vote on it. As Barry is anticipating the release of Up up in 5 days, maybe release a bugfix version any day now?

That should also calm Robert. Let's understand that he is frantic to deploy for the cybercafes, and want the best Puppy to be deployed there. Of course we know that you're in the best position to help him, and in so doing also the rest of us.

raffy, this isn't about Robert getting a solid base for his Cybercafe project. He has already said that he is quite capable of applying the patches provided for that. It is instead about Robert dictating when is the appropriate time to release an official update! The last time I checked that decision wasn't his to make! Robert seems obsessed with the idea that he is the only one with a hotline to the Puppy user base; by which he generally means his clients. I keep trying to tell him that the Puppy community is much wider than that, and not all of them share HIS concerns about the 4.2 release and its problems.

@All - It is clear from some of the posts here that I need to reiterate why I believe an update release has not been appropriate, although I have posted my reasons here on the forum before.

1. Puppy 4.2, code named "Deep Thought", was only released a little before Easter. If we posted a so-called bug fix update within a week or two, how much "Deep Thought" would the wider Linux community have perceived went into the original release? We would have been a laughing stock, despite being in the same position as many other releases when it comes to relatively MINOR bugs. It is all about credibility with Linux. When you reach the top of any tree, there are those who want to bring you down as quickly as possible - usually so they can take your place. Puppy is no different in that respect. Look at the commentary on Distrowatch when PCLinuxOS made it the top, and how there are those now crowing about its recent fall from grace.

2. The identified bugs have repeatedly been characterised by ecomoney as "showstopper" bugs. To my mind that demonstrates a general lack of understanding of the term. Everything in Puppy 4.2 works as it should for MOST people in MOST situations. Nothing is "broken" in that sense. Abiword processes words and CUPS prints them. Yes, there are things that need to be fixed, and there have been fixes posted in the forum in the appropriate place. Having a link to the Patches & Updates thread on the Download page is a good idea. Yes there are things that worked well in 4.12 that seem problematic in 4.2, BUT telling people to revert to 4.12 gives an entirely negative impression from its source; the Puppy community. We would seriously lose credibility by publicising that we had launched a "faulty" product when in fact it had fewer bugs than almost any other release before it! 4.1 was followed by 4.11 and then 4.12 - not unusual for a new format release. We needed 4.2 to say to the wider community "Barry's having a rest but Puppy will go on regardless". Posting quick fix releases is counterproductive to that, especially when the bugs are comparatively minor and relatively few in number.

The time is certainly approaching when it will be appropriate to release 4.2.1, or perhaps even 4.3 although the latter is considerably further off at the moment. The question I face every day is "Is the time right?", and so far the answer has been no. Every day since 4.2 was released and the first problem was discovered, ecomoney has been "in my ear", both through the forum and PM's, to pull the ISO's from our mirrors and upload a bug fixed version. I'd give him A+ for stubborn persistence if nothing else. I do NOT need someone else second guessing my judgements about when it is appropriate to release, and applying whatever pressure to get their own way. I have enough voices in my head already! What many of you don't know about the 4.2 release is that while there were some voices on the forum saying "it's not ready yet", there were many others INCLUDING BARRY, telling me it was time to release and not to worry about finding more bugs ..."there are always bugs"(sic) said Barry.

I have to be concerned with the WHOLE of the Puppy community, and protecting the Puppy ethos as well as our credibility. It would be a mistake to give too much credence to a few "squeeky wheels" crying for things to be fixed and fixed NOW! Although this is a community distribution now, and Barry has made that abundantly clear on his Blog and elsewhere, that doesn't mean it should be run by committee. You've all heard the story that the camel was intended to be a horse but it was designed by a committee! There is room for community input, and certainly room for some compromise to suit the community view of things, but ultimately there must be only ONE person making the final choices. Otherwise you will have anarchy and chaos will be its product.

I will leave the poll to run its course. I chose 7 days so even infrequent visitors could exercise their vote. On the early returns it looks like I'm going to be stuck with the job. I had secretly hoped that I could go back to a more sedentary involvement in Puppy. I have no regrets about posting this issue here, as public as it is. I don't see it as airing dirty laundry. I see it as being fully transparent in our governance. There are no secret committees, no hidden agendas and no ulterior motives or hidden influences within the Puppy community development effort. That should now be very clear. I also don't believe the community should be asked to vote every time there is an issue to be decided, otherwise why bother with a coordinator; so no vote on a possible release schedule. If I supported that course we would be stuck designing camels instead of Puppies.

I am aware that Barry will be releasing a radical new "think piece" to publicise Woof! I am tempted to release 4.2.1 at or before that time in order to capitalise on any renewed interest in Puppy, but I haven't come to a final decision on that yet. I'm stockpiling patches and updates to that end at the moment, and the devs and packagers are quietly supplying those to me in the background.

@ecomoney - while I don't like taking this course, I have decided that I will not respond to any PM from you again until I'm fully satisfied you understand and are ready to accept that your agenda isn't the only agenda or even the most important one. I don't believe you should be banned, but I do admit to secretly hoping I didn't have to deal with your bullying methods, regardless of how well intentioned they may be.

@Other posters - I will attempt to answer legitimate questions about my choices in this thread until the poll closes. After that I will expect to be allowed to do the job for which I volunteered without having to publicly or privately justify my every decision. If that can't happen, then perhaps ecomoney is right and I'm not the man for the job. There is enough work to do without being required to explain every small step taken to achieve the goal. I am not really having FUN, but I am giving back some of what I have received courtesy of Puppy and the community and for the moment that's good enough.

[ttuuxxx]

Hey WhoDo

I started editing/updating the default 4.2 official release to shutup ecomoney once and for all, then you posted the above response, do you want me to continue updating it or trash it, I was only doing it to make this headache go away and buy you some time
ttuuxxx

[cthisbear]

WhoDo:
You did a lousy job.Only got us us to number 2.
Not good enough I say.
Hang your head in shame.

Anyway Windows 7 is coming.
mate! this is going to work bigtime.
MS is going to piddle on your kennel
And your kernel.

"""""""""""""
" Remember there are also vested interests who will find ways of
producing discord in the Linux community. "
I hate that Custacean.
How does he always know about me.

"""""""""""""""
And I want everyone banned from the forum.
Lurkalots and troublemakers.

""""""""""""

" On stage they are heroes, offstage they can be a-holes "
Now Aitch has heard about me. I hate him too.

"""""""""""""""""

" Better to have arguments than to blindly follow the leader "
This will now be my lifes plan.I loves you Pizzasgood.

"""""""""""""

" Sometimes everyone ought to step away from the computer,
enjoy the day, and maybe have a brew. "
I want hillside banned now.
Back to San francisco for you...Hippie lover.

""""""""""""""""

And I don't want any mantras from Lobster as well.
Pots of boiling water for him.

"""""""""

Anyone of you lot should know that to climb a mountain,
you don't follow different paths or scale unknown heights.
You use a bloody helicopter instead.
I should be in charge. I can hate everybody.
Talk about a dog with fleas.
Anyway i've seen a picture of your hat WhoDo...Gimme.

//////////////

WhoDo
" I have enough voices in my head already!"
You too eh!
To hell with medication.
I'm beginning to like you boy.

Maybe I should use an Apple.
Mr Jobs...Mr Jobs.

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/new ... d-macbooks

//////////////

Well maybe I'll let you stay if you fix my MP4 thingy.
But this is your last chance.
Cos next I'm going to ban Lake Macquarie.

And I think ttuuxxx is a pretend Canadian.
I believe he's really a Yank.
Take that cannonball ttuuxxx.

Who's next??????????

Chris.

[WhoDo]

-If its 4.2.1 I would go back to the earlier cups which didn't have the permissions problems, but compile it from scratch. and use the newer libgnomecups packages.
- use the older abiword fix package I put together or let me compile the older versions etc. Or add the newer package and install the Tymes font and see if that works.
-Still against the bling turned on by default.

It looks like it will be 4.2.1, ttuuxxx, because I had planned 4.3 to use the Git system and that's not yet ready, as PG explained. I'm fine with that. I suggest that 4.2.1 could be ready around the time Barry releases his Woof taster, so next weekend would be a good time. That makes sense on two fronts; it would allow us to capitalise on any renewed interest in Puppy as the result of Barry's release, and it would make the update far less conspicuous as any "noise" focuses on the new Woof build. We'll see though.

-I could compile the latest Seamonkey if you needed it?But that I would wait until maybe a week before you release it. They've been releasing a lot of versions lately and I don't want to get stuck doing it 2 or 3 times during a release build.

Not necessary for the update release. We should update to the most recent Seamonkey with our specific additions (Seafox theme, Monkeymenus, etc) for 4.3 though.

Ps I think Barry might want a stab at Puppy 5 since he mentioned at his blog that this weekend he's having a woof-a-thon and trying to release puppy 5.0 beta Upup by thursday the same day that Ubuntu releases

I suspected that might be the case and said so earlier in another post on the subject. I have deliberately left the door open for Barry to take back control whenever he feels the need, and the first progeny from Woof is as good a reason as any for doing that.

[01micko]

Who's next??????????
Chris.

Hmmmm... have I found an ally?

[ttuuxxx]

WhoDo:

And I think ttuuxxx is a pretend Canadian.
I believe he's really a Yank.
Take that cannonball ttuuxxx.

Who's next??????????

Chris.

Chris are you crying for attention or what?, Your acting like a kid starving for it, either to shift the topic or that you live a sad life. And you never call a Canadian a Yank and vise versa. Well unless your backpacking across Iraq, North Korea, Saudi Arabia Then you can call a Yank a Canadian.
ttuuxxx

[WhoDo]

There is no doubt that the Abiword fix should be fixed. However I don't see any reason to toss out the coordinator over one bug.

Perhaps a note could be put on the web page explaining how to fix the bug, until a corrected version can be uploaded.

Good idea. Done. I don't know how to put it on the main page, but it is on the download page at puppylinux.org. If there was an actual fix posted (instead of just downgrading), someone let me know and I'll change it.

It would be best not to talk about downgrading, SirDuncan. There is an update posted in the 4.2 Patches & Updates thread on the forum. It is a sticky at the top of the Additional Software (Pups, 'n Stuff) thread:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=40537
Posting a link to that on the Downloads page at puppylinux.org would be the way to go. Since you have Editor privileges, will you do a link to the update instead?

[WhoDo]

Who's next??????????

ROTFLMAO ! Good ol' Aussie humour; of course the Canuck didn't get it, but we'll forgive him for that, eh Chris? Certainly lightened my load today!

[runtt21]

I vote for WHODO !!!!!!

[ttuuxxx]

Not necessary for the update release. We should update to the most recent Seamonkey with our specific additions (Seafox theme,

Ok but its not the Seafox theme, its like 5 different themes+code I blended together Seafox is the most noticeable on the browser. But if you look at the mail, composer, menus, bookmarks its not Seafox.
ttuuxxx

[SirDuncan]

It would be best not to talk about downgrading, SirDuncan. There is an update posted in the 4.2 Patches & Updates thread on the forum. It is a sticky at the top of the Additional Software (Pups, 'n Stuff) thread:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=40537
Posting a link to that on the Downloads page at puppylinux.org would be the way to go. Since you have Editor privileges, will you do a link to the update instead?

I thought there must be a fix by now, but my search for "Abiword bug" resulted in a thread saying to downgrade Abiword, followed by a fix, followed by someone saying that the fix didn't actually work. I should have known to search for "4.2 patches" instead. Anyway the page is now pointing to the aforementioned thread.

Is that really all of the patches so far? Between all the hubbub and the length of the bug report thread (which I must admit that I have not read), I thought there must be more. It certainly doesn't seem like enough to justify another release yet.