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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
Project Coordinator Threatened ....
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Should WhoDo Step Aside as Coodinator
Yes
13%
 13%  [ 10 ]
No
86%
 86%  [ 65 ]
Total Votes : 75

Author Message
mcewanw

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 2253
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Sun 19 Apr 2009, 21:03    Post subject:  

droope wrote:
You obiously didn't read how ecomoney complained...


Well that's certainly not the case droope. I also noted how ecomoney described his own feeling of guilt concerning his failing when given project coordinator role of an earlier CE release. All credit to him for admitting the over-zealous misplaced sense of pride that caused that relatively unimportant "failure".

However, having long been aware of ecomoney's long-running Puppy-based cyber cafe implementation, I do feel that his concerns were understandable. Furthermore, he was diplomatic enough not to air these concerns publicly, which as far as I see demonstrates that he was not trying to undermine the position of the Puppy 4.2 release project coordinator. It was the latter who revealed the comments, which is also fine in terms of informing the Puppy community of what goes on in the background, but I do think the aggressive response against ecomoney was entirely unwarranted considering ecomoney's own tact (I'm referring to his original PM rather than the heated argument that later ensued, though even ecomoney's later posts demonstrate a great deal of restraint and diplomacy).

I have never imagined ecomoney to be a technically-oriented Puppy developer, and hence am not overly surprised that he failed to deliver on an earlier CE release. Of course, it can also be the case that technical competence does not guarantee competence as a project coordinator (though it is convenient and useful when both skills are evident in the same individual; as is the case with Barry Kauler of course).

There seems to be no doubt that ttuuxxx saved the day in terms of providing a "fixed" version of 4.2, but that seems to have been an independent effort rather than something initiated and coordinated "officially" as a main release (or am I wrong about that?). Indeed, for some time now, ttuuxxx appears to have demonstrated his flair for producing excellent Puplets, keeping up to date with fixes and patches, and generally putting in an amazing amount of personal time providing versions of Puppy that work as flawlessly as we have all come to expect. However, I suspect ttuuxxx himself prefers working "in the background" on such matters, since project coordination necessarily involves using up a great deal of time on relatively untechnical matters (needing good "people skills", a thick skin, and a firm determined approach which nevertheless never fails to be polite, kind, and absolutely diplomatic and respectful).

Since the likes of Barry Kauler are hard to find, it would seem best to have two or more individuals in the project coordinator role: one to take the bulk of "the heat" when problems occasionally and naturally arise, and one to rapidly provide the technical fixes. Ttuuxxx is certainly the natural candidate for the latter role (though his ealier puplet productions suggest he wouldn't be too bad for the former either - why... he even lives in Australia - the home of Puppy - even though he is no native of that continent).

As for Ecomoney, and the comments I have read being voiced in criticism against him, I can only shake my head in disbelief at the attitude of some members of the Puppy community. Puppy is only as important as its acceptance and use in the community, and hence the unparalleled contribution of ecomoney's efforts. Regardless of his admitted pride (which oft comes before a fall...), the man has undoubtedly (it seems to me) done more than anyone to introduce Puppy to the "mainstream" non-technical computer user. Certainly, we all contribute to the marketing of Puppy by telling others about it and demonstrating and setting it up for our friends and acquaintances. But most computer users in the world don't read the Puppy linux forum posts or have friends who do. So how do they find out about Puppy linux; normally they don't. Step in ecomoney with his public Puppy-based cyber cafes and a potentially huge public audience becomes aware of Puppy linux - that is the source of potentially true growth and product sustainability (not that ecomoney is Bill Gates...). With that in mind, I can't help but find it disgraceful that anyone should comment negatively about ecomoney's efforts - particularly in relation to his personal life in terms of paying his due taxes and so on - I am personally unemployed and there is no fun in that; ecomoney's cyber cafes are no small feat and he can be forgiven for his obvious but only natural pride. Like ttuuxxx, ecomoney clearly gives an inordinate amount of his time towards Puppy, and his reward is surely far from huge in monetary terms; all credit to the man and his community spirit which manifests itself in an impressive UK public manner. If he was to switch distributions (and let's face it, there are alternatives around nowadays) that would be a serious loss to Puppy status in the UK at least.

Ecomoney is no ttuuxxx, I feel, but then, ttuuxxx is no ecomoney either; they are both very impressive in terms of their incredible efforts and demonstrative achievements however; regardless of how selfless or otherwise their motivations.

Puppy needs to get back the "golden days" of Barry and MU (regardless of the actual individuals who now need to take on such roles); bullying is certainly the wrong approach in terms of generating a genuinely trusting public, and surely ecomoney was quite right anyway: major faults in a distribution need quickly provided official patches (Barry K used to do that; version 2.17.1, for example, was released very quickly to remedy some flaws in 2.17). It has to be a bad policy to ever delay any fix and surely that has to be agreed (the software development industry accepted that a long time ago, and the open source community has long prided itself in its quick release of patches, hammering Microsoft in the process; the open source movement doesn't have too many ecomoney's however, bringing the likes of Puppy to the notice of the general public); it is not a good argument to say that Puppy is just a hobby project which has always had its priorities dictated - in practice, Barry K always tried to satisfy all Puppy users - hence the likes of ecomoney choosing to support his creation.
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10747
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sun 19 Apr 2009, 21:39    Post subject:  

I'm just thinking why we can have a minor bug fix release like once a month? say like the 1st day of the month, and have a major release like when ever it happens? Bug fix releases are simple, as long as they are just for fixing bugs and not introducing new software, that would take more testing etc. But bugs that have been squashed and well documented like the ones I included in that unofficial update was easy once the packages were made and posted on WhoDo's thread. But like what we did in 4.2 building that would take a few months to sort out so that would be a major release without any specific time constraints and any over the board outburst will be met by shunning the individuals, lol.
ttuuxxx

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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 6270
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

PostPosted: Sun 19 Apr 2009, 22:10    Post subject:  

I don't see any big reasons why we couldn't. The main thing, under the traditional method of Puppy development, is that two trees would have to be maintained. No big deal. In the Git method it would also be fairly simple (and more space efficient) - keep separate "stable" and "development" branches. People could pull from and build a Puppy based on the stable branch whenever they want, and an official release could be made monthly, including whatever fixes happen to have been applied. (Unless none have, then don't bother).



As for rapid bug-fix releases, I can understand a desire to wait a week or two, in order to consolidate more fixes into a single release. Otherwise you wind up with a lot of releases, one after another. So long as the patches are provided, it is fine (and more efficient) to wait and consolidate. Personally, my limit would be two, two-and-a-half weeks. After that I'd feel obligated to release whatever I have, and then start another bug-collecting session.

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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10747
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sun 19 Apr 2009, 22:12    Post subject:  

Also as ecomoney goes, I found a perfect program for him
http://cycle.sourceforge.net/
But we should make it puppy policy he should have to share his results monthly with us, so we know when to stay away and ignore him.
LOL ttuuxxx

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puppyluvr


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 3186
Location: Chickasha Oklahoma

PostPosted: Sun 19 Apr 2009, 22:19    Post subject:  

Very Happy
Ttuuxxx, that was sexist and intolerant....I like it.. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10747
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sun 19 Apr 2009, 22:21    Post subject:  

puppyluvr wrote:
Very Happy
Ttuuxxx, that was sexist and intolerant....I like it.. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy


Yes its been like 5mins since I posted that response and I'm still laughing lol lol
ttuuxxx

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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
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PostPosted: Mon 20 Apr 2009, 01:31    Post subject:  

Maybe you could use it too Wink
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Trobin

Joined: 18 Aug 2005
Posts: 907
Location: BC Canada

PostPosted: Mon 20 Apr 2009, 01:59    Post subject:  

I thought it a tad offensive. It isn't as if Ecomoney didn't have a legitimate concern.
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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Mon 20 Apr 2009, 03:56    Post subject:  

mcewanw wrote:
It has to be a bad policy to ever delay any fix and surely that has to be agreed (the software development industry accepted that a long time ago, and the open source community has long prided itself in its quick release of patches, hammering Microsoft in the process; the open source movement doesn't have too many ecomoney's however, bringing the likes of Puppy to the notice of the general public); it is not a good argument to say that Puppy is just a hobby project which has always had its priorities dictated - in practice, Barry K always tried to satisfy all Puppy users - hence the likes of ecomoney choosing to support his creation.

Now you've got my dander up again! The patches for 4.2 were available within days of the release, in some cases within hours! The problem was that I refused to post new ISO's when we had only just posted the ones that were there and the bugs were NOT "showstopper" bugs! That decision was mine to make as Project Coordinator, but ecomoney refused to take "No" for an answer! As it is we are STILL going to post a 4.2.1 update with nothing much changed from the original release as far as most users would be concerned.

ecomoney doesn't "support his creation" at all! He advises all and sundry to come HERE for their support! He has admitted as much IN THIS VERY THREAD! In fact, there is some dispute that he actually HAS a creation when it comes to Puppy. He insists that Ecopup is a "heavily modified" version of 2.15CE, by which I suspect that he means it has a nice XP-style theme and icons among other relatively minor adjustments (a symlink to /mnt/home for example).

Don't let the FACTS get in the way of a good story though, eh? Hell, ecomoney doesn't so why should you!

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MinHundHettePerro


Joined: 05 Feb 2009
Posts: 847
Location: SE

PostPosted: Mon 20 Apr 2009, 04:45    Post subject:  

Béèm wrote:
Good looking. Should be in every puppy from now on, but maybe as part of the jwm configuration. (and without the drama Wink )
Tried in upup Jaunty.


Ok, it was just a very quick hack. I'll have a go at incorporating a more general version in the JWMConfigManager - I also think it could be useful to others. Don't worry about the more dramatic part of the GUI, it's definitely not intended to leave this thread. Smile

Cheers/
MHHP

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davesurrey

Joined: 05 Aug 2008
Posts: 1201
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon 20 Apr 2009, 06:16    Post subject:  

@ComputerBob,
I agree with cthisbear that yours was a first class reply.

@WhoDo wrote
Quote:
Contrary to the opinion of some, Private Messages (PM's) are NOT about keeping communications entirely Private as in Privacy legislation. They are about keeping any communications that only really concern two people from bothering everyone else. The exception is when the content becomes something which clearly does concern the whole community or a sizable chunk thereof. Then they should be made "public". That precedent was set here a long time ago, and not by me either. The important business of the community should NOT be carried out in private between individuals IMHO.


At best WhoDo it would seem that you and I completely disagree on what is netiquette here so I did a quick Google which took me to
RFC1855 - Netiquette Guidelines
Section "2.1.1 For mail:
which reads

Quote:
......... If the message was a personal message to
you and you are re-posting to a group, you should ask permission
first.


That's good enough for me but even without that I would still feel it morally wrong to disclose personal mail on a public forum, without permission, whatever the content.

Perhaps one of the moderators would like to say whether this forum believes in RFC1855 or not? That would be helpful..

Also,
WhoDO wrote to ecomoney:
Quote:
You do use terrorist tactics to get your way.....


Although I am a Cambridge graduate, not one from rival Oxford, I'll bow down to the latter's excellent Oxford English Dictionary which quotes terrorism as
Quote:
the unofficial or unauthorised use of VIOLENCE AND INTIMIDATION in the pursuit of political means.
My capitals, not theirs.

WhoDo there is just no way that your wording can be acceptable in this context and at best it is inflamatory, derogatory and inaccurate, especially in these times.

@Pizzasgood wrote recently in another thread:

Quote:

One thing I will not tolerate is threats to other members. Verbal, graphic, audio, or otherwise.


Perhaps it would be helpful to stop any such spats in the future if you could add to this list "personal insults to someone's character" which I feel sadly we have seen here and in other threads recently. Disagreement is one thing and can be useful but when it becomes personal it's quite another thing.

Hopefully we can soon get back to the friendly place this used to be.
Dave
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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Mon 20 Apr 2009, 08:05    Post subject:  

davesurrey wrote:
Hopefully we can soon get back to the friendly place this used to be.

Not while supercilious people like you continue to twist the facts to suit themselves. That's just not a terribly "friendly" thing to do.

1. We were talking about a Private Message on a public forum not private electronic MAIL, for which you kindly provided a suitable definition.

2. Intimidation (your definition) comes in many forms, one of those being the repeated use of small, seemingly insignificant attacks to induce a fear of the next attack - terrorist tactics IOW. It was first made popular in guerrilla warfare, but turned into an art form by modern terrorist groups.

Welcome to the debate, Spin Doctor #2. Must be a free "master class" in the subject available somewhere in the UK.

The longer this goes on the more I fear for whoever succeeds me as Project Coordinator for the Puppy project. It is seemingly a poisoned chalice! All I have ever done is to try and make the best choices for Puppy, to the very best of my ability. The consequence is that for my trouble I have been threatened (my perception would seem to be the most relevant here), intimidated and repeatedly had my authority to make those choices questioned despite the source of that authority. All I can say to whoever replaces me is "Good luck. You'll need it!"

Just so the record can be set straight on the subject of availability of 4.2 patches and updates, there was a link to the Patches and Updates thread posted on the Downloads page at puppylinux.org within 12 hours of that thread being opened at the forum. That fact was provided by the poster of the link, coolpup, who unlike some actually does an enormous amount of work for Puppy in private and without any personal fanfare!

I thought ecomoney was the only one here deluded by his own self-serving publicity, but it seems that gullibility is yet another commodity too freely available in some quarters.

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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Mon 20 Apr 2009, 08:45    Post subject:  

FuturePup available for download......




Chill, WhoDo, you'll have a heart attack

This is intended for light relief, please see the funny side....

Let it go,

lock this damn thread FFS, before we self destruct the Pupster entirely

Aitch Smile
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davesurrey

Joined: 05 Aug 2008
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Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon 20 Apr 2009, 08:48    Post subject:  

double post, sorry
Last edited by davesurrey on Mon 20 Apr 2009, 08:50; edited 1 time in total
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davesurrey

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PostPosted: Mon 20 Apr 2009, 08:48    Post subject:  

WhoDo wrote:
Quote:
Not while supercilious people like you continue to twist the facts to suit themselves.


Thanks for the insult, WhoDo. But I doubt it stands you in good light.

Quote:
1. We were talking about a Private Message on a forum not private electronic MAIL, for which you kindly provided a suitable definition.

I am well aware of that but think you have highlighted the wrong word. I believe it should be PRIVATE and you are splitting hairs here over what is an important issue of privacy. Trying to twist facts...no, of course not.
And you ignored any question as to whether it was morally correct.

Quote:
2. Intimidation (your definition) comes in many forms, one of those being the repeated use of small, seemingly insignificant attacks to induce a fear of the next attack - terrorist tactics IOW. It was first made popular in guerrilla warfare, but turned into an art form by modern terrorist groups.

Thanks for the history lessons but I think you will find I also received an education as well as you.
However you seem to have missed the important point that there was a great big AND in that definition. You can't just ignore that the definition involves violence, which makes it patently absurd to use in such a thread.

Quote:
Welcome to the debate, Spin Doctor #2. Must be a free "master class" in the subject available somewhere in the UK.

I'll ignore the further insults and xenophobia towards the UK. Thanks for your welcome to the debate, but I have no wish to play to your game.

I've said what I believed was needed saying; if you don't agree so be it.
I don't see any need to discuss this further as you seem so stuck in your beliefs and it won't do Puppy any good continuing this, as it didn't starting this in the first place, as you did.

So over to you WhoDo, have the last word, insult, whatever.....
Dave
(deluded of the UK)
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