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Project Coordinator Threatened ....
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Should WhoDo Step Aside as Coodinator
Yes
13%
 13%  [ 10 ]
No
86%
 86%  [ 65 ]
Total Votes : 75

Author Message
WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr 2009, 07:14    Post subject:  Project Coordinator Threatened ....
Subject description: ... Community to make a decision.
 

It is a painful thing for me to do, but I feel that I have been left with no other option. I am making public in this forum a threat that was made against me in a personal message. It was deliberately calculated to "force" me to change my mind about when and how the next few official releases will happen. To avoid any suggestion that I am varnishing the truth with that statement, I have elected to post the entire contents of the relevant PM on the subject.

------------------------
ecomoney wrote:

Greetings Whodo

Can I summarize from your previous message that 4.2 will be bugfixed when you "get round" to it? I find it incredible that you would allow a standard latest edition of puppy be available for weeks as our main offering with a faulty wordprocessor/printing system among other serious flaws. This is not right in "scunny" or anywhere else.

Ive searched the forum, puppylinux news, pupplinux.org etc and found no mention of 4.2.1 bugfix version, except Lobster mentioning he hoped for one in his podcast. These are the main puppy sites are they not?

May I ask you again, what is your timetable for updating the bugs in the current puppylinux release?

If I were to get together some of the other concerned developers (and there are quite a few), would the bugfixed 4.2CE become the main offering at puppylinux.org until 4.2.1 came out, if ever? If not it would be a fruitless exercise to our intended target audience.

Puppy Linux is too valuable a technology to be left in this condition for any length of time. Please inform me of your intentions regarding this, and the timescales of those intentions. If these are not imminent from yourself I am willing to take whatever steps necessary to ensure the current condition is rectified as soon as possible.

Yours Cordially

Robert Simpson

My emphasis in the last paragraph.
--------------------------------------
That was prompted by the following exchange:
ecomoney wrote:

....and would love to have another stab at a community edition sometime if that were at all possible.


WhoDo wrote:

Nike ... just do it!


ecomoney wrote:

That would be fantastic.....I would start on the way. It would mean me breaking from my other-more personally beneficial-projects, but I would be happy to do that as long as I knew the ISO's up at www.puppylinux.org were going to be replaced. If I could get your official blessing to head up 4.2.1 then Im sure a lot of the other developers would love to get behind me and clear up the 4.2 problems/bugs, as long as I kept certain the unsavoury elements that were responsible for a lot of the bugs out of the process (Love and Peace will give you a fuzzy feeling inside...but anger will drive you onward Wink )


WhoDo wrote:
Whoa! I didn't suggest taking on the next official release! I suggested building a CE version of 4.2 instead. Start with the 4.2 base, incorporate the patches and fixes and then add away to your own and the community's content with things like Office packs, extra applications, replacement programs such as maybe VLC instead of Gxine, etc. Keep it under 135Mb total and let your head go with things like Window manager, themes, etc.


ecomoney wrote:

To clarify my offer, my main and dear wish is to get the 4.2 iso's down as the official release as soon as possible. I would be willing to contact some of the developers with expertise in certain areas to get the "bling" back into "deeper thought V2", as well as regress the versions of abiword to the "just works" version, as well as CUPS. My offer was simply to do the thread watching/PM'ing/co-ordination surrounding that. If there is somone already on a 4.2.1 then Im just as happy to help around that. Im just worried that I dont see any activity around the forum surrounding it...so I thought I would "just do it". Perhaps you would let me know who will be heading up the 4.2.1 version so I can offer my services?

With regards a CE version, I may still have a crack at that, but its not one of my aims right now, especially until a bugfixed 4.2 can be created.


WhoDo wrote:

So let me get this straight; I offered you a means to achieve your stated aims, but one that required YOU to do the work rather than someone else, and you declined saying that's "not one of my aims right now"? I'm sorry but you've had your opportunity (twice now) and you've blown it, Rob. There won't be another offer, at least not from me. As for your concerns about creating a "bugfixed 4.2", you can stop being concerned. That's my job and my decision. Your opinions, as valid as you may think them to be, are not universally shared and certainly not shared by me.


---------------------------
As can be seen from the exchange, ecomoney thought I was giving him permission to take over development of the official Puppy. I could not and would not take such a decision. The leadership of the official release program isn't mine to give away. That rightly remains a decision for Barry and the community at large. Barry supported me in taking on the 4.2 development coordination and I have offered to continue through 4.2.1 or 4.3 as the case may be UNLESS either Barry wants it back or the community nominates someone better qualified. That is still my position.

There has been a continuing campaign by ecomoney to DEMAND a bug-fixed release following 4.2 "immediately"(sic). I have repeatedly answered that is a policy decision and I have good reasons for NOT doing that at the moment. ecomoney still persists is trying to push his agenda on the release of official Puppy versions, culminating in his threat that if I don't comply with his wishes then he will "take whatever steps necessary to ensure the current condition is rectified as soon as possible".

I've been patient. I've been transparent about my reasons for taking the decisions I've taken. I have even offered ecomoney an opportunity, with my support, to correct his woeful record on actually DOING anything for the Puppy community rather than just his own community by building a 4.2CE the way he says the community wants Puppy to be.

I have finally had enough of the bully boy tactics. I have told Barry and I have made no secret of the fact that once coordinating Puppy ceases to be fun, then I will stop doing it. We are rapidly approaching that point. There is no fun in threats, however empty they may ultimately prove to be. It is now up to the community. I will step down as coordinator if that is the community's wish. OTOH, if the community does NOT wish me to step aside, I will take that as a mandate to continue my intended program of releases when I see fit, and not as ecomoney or any other individual thinks fit.

I have allowed 7 days for your decision. Either way, I will not be giving up my support for Puppy or its excellent crew of developers who in the main work away silently in the background and remain aloof from the politics and drama playing out elsewhere. I don't want this to be a case of "support me or I'm taking my marbles and going home" style of poll. I will remain a firm defender of Puppy and the community no matter what the decision.

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Lobster
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Joined: 04 May 2005
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PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr 2009, 07:57    Post subject:  

Very Happy

Warren I think you did a brilliant job on 4.2
I really do.
I also think 2.15CE was a turning point.

You do not have to justify your position. Cool

Robert when will Phoenix be ready . . . ? Cool
http://puppylinux.org/community/puppy-ce/talking-stick/phoenix
. . . and your Puppy video?
You seem to have a lot of projects already. Good luck with them.
Any progress?
Very Happy

Some points of interest:

2.15 was rushed (I had a hand in the rushing Embarassed )
the reason was because version 3 was coming and developers
were likely to migrate. Very professionally Warren produced a bug fixed 2.15CE version that was very stable and usable

I am using 4.2 with the SMP enabled kernel
I hope to go onto 4.2.1
and I really hope you stay on for 4.3

I am hoping Barry and/or others will help start using woof
to create a 4.3 that is based on 4.2.1 and Woof.

4.2 is proof that the official version can and has been produced by the community.

. . . and so to Kennel
http://pupweb.org/wikka/PuppyKennel/
some way off
key decisions are not yet in place
Do we we use Ubuntu, Debian, T2, Slackware as the development base.

What do you guys think?
Barry is leaning towards Ubuntu because of the magnitude of their depositories. I would support that
I am also happy with Debian and Slackware.
. . . am a bit confused as to how T2 comes into this - just seems a way of compiling?.
My feeling is always, those WhoDo [sic] the work should make the decisions.

Puppy at Play

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aarf

Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 3620
Location: around the bend

PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr 2009, 08:31    Post subject:  

@whodo i dont see a problem with you being co-ordinator but also having a democratic flexible release schedule as the need may or may not be. Perhaps if you put some justification into your release schedule more understanding would be abounding. Perhaps if you change the poll to be about release schedules and not about co-ordination as i dont see that co-ordination is the source of the issue. Ecomoney is as concerned for the future of puppy as you are also.
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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr 2009, 08:53    Post subject: schedule  

@Whodo: You made Lobster's head swim with your long post- now he wrote 2.13CE for 2.15CE. Maybe the water is hot in these places. Wink

My advise: just post your proposed release schedule and we will vote on it. As Barry is anticipating the release of Up up in 5 days, maybe release a bugfix version any day now?

That should also calm Robert. Let's understand that he is frantic to deploy for the cybercafes, and want the best Puppy to be deployed there. Of course we know that you're in the best position to help him, and in so doing also the rest of us.

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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr 2009, 08:58    Post subject:  

Quote:
Please inform me of your intentions regarding this, and the timescales of those intentions. If these are not imminent from yourself I am willing to take whatever steps necessary to ensure the current condition is rectified as soon as possible.


Threatening? Laughing

I meant I might "Threaten" you with PM'ing Barry myself to bring this to his attention. I might have even gone as far as "viciously" posting on the forum that you seemed unwilling to fix the bugs in 4.2, but I didnt want to be seen to publicly undermine you Warren.

4.2 Doesnt have a wordprocessor that is compatible with Word documents (without "workaround") , or a printing system that doesnt hang, amongst various other faults (scanning, wireless etc) that while, not "serious" to developers, are damn serious to any normal user who just wants their computer to "just work". 4.2 was released on the 28th March, it is now 17th April, and the buggy 4.2 is still our main offering at puppylinux.org. So far Ive found nothing to suggest you ever intend to do this.

So I suggested you get someone else to do it, and even offered to co-ordinate/test it myself, and leave you the time to work on Woof? NO!!!! Sad

You offered to support me to do a community edition? This would fix my own problems sure (Im actually capable of applying the already prepared bugfixes myself), but my concern is with the bugs on the main download at puppylinux.org, i.e. the "official version". Before you bring up the often used argument that I just want puppy the way I want it (a "scunny-puppy" that you mentioned in you PM?), this is simply not the case. I want a usable relatively bug-free main release at puppylinux.org. No changed features, just a simple bugfix. Im sure a great many people around the world who want to dump Micro$oft, who are not developers or even forum users, dearly wish to see that too. Arnt you forgetting who the real "enemy" is?

Quote:
There has been a continuing campaign by ecomoney to DEMAND a bug-fixed release following 4.2 "immediately"(sic). I have repeatedly answered that is a policy decision and I have good reasons for NOT doing that at the moment. ecomoney still persists is trying to push his agenda on the release of official Puppy versions,


Would you make clear what this "policy decisions" and these "good reasons" are? Why on earth would having a broken main release up for nearly three weeks with no plans to correct it be "Policy".

Quote:
to correct his woeful record on actually DOING anything for the Puppy community


Im doing something now arnt I?

Ok, Im not a "developer" as such. I see my role in the community as promoting puppy/open source to government/individuals, and feeding back information, bug reports and useability issues, and information about WHAT USERS WANT to the developers. This way I hope in a small way to make Linux even better than it is, so that it may eventually one day become the main operating system/software manufacturing method used throughout the world. Ive spent four years of my life doing this. Compiling programs isnt all that is needed to achieve this aim...although I did push my bounderies to make sure there was an a latest openoffice and full firefox packages available for 4.2 when it came out, so that puppy could "run with the big dogs".

I knew there was a time I would have to mention this, this I suppose is a good a time as any. The reason I "dropped off" the 3.02ce project was because, thorugh having no income for so long, I was placed on a government forced "work programme" (coincidently of the type that Whodo used to manage before he enrolled on the Puppy Linux programme). This meant that I was unable to put in the hours needed to properly co-ordinate it, and it failed.

My Error here (and I am admitting it) was a sense of false pride in being elected to be "project manager". I just didint want to give that up, and wanted the "glory" to myself, so instead of handing it over to someone who had the time resources to do it, I tried to hang onto it, and let everyone down. It been a source of considerable guilt to me ever since, and that is why I went missing from the forum for so long. For this I sincerely and abjectly apologise, and I really mean that. I know I screwed up in a big way.

Perhaps this is why Im so sensitive about seeing another "project manager" going the same way.

Ive taken steps and made contacts, as well as adjusted my attitude, to make sure this doesnt happen again...that is the most I can do.

I wont be able to follow this thread today, as I have to go out to another town and visit the Planned puppy linux cybercafe, set up a laptop for a 92 year old, and a young kid to do his homework. Ive also got a long list of people who where part of the 4.2 testing programme to go around and bugfix their installs. I hope I have enough fuel in my car.

Whatever the decision (and Im glad to hear that Warren will stay with the project whatever) I will

Quote:
I will remain a firm defender of Puppy and the community


Woof Woof

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Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr 2009, 09:05    Post subject: Re: schedule  


http://www.puppylinux.org/community/puppy-ce/puppy-215-ce-viz

raffy wrote:
You made Lobster's head swim


My head is mostly full of seawater
Thanks raffy - have corrected it - should have called it 'Viz'
and you guys are right, we are on the same team

Team Puppy

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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 5453
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr 2009, 09:37    Post subject:  

@Whodo , I agree that you should stay on as coordinator....even though as we can see it is sometimes a thankless job.
Yes, there are a few "bugs" in 4.20 but someone tell me a distro that is released totally bug free.Debian is as solid a distro as I've seen but on there main web page for "Lenny" they mention that there are "bugs"......there are bugs in every distro, some big and some small.
If distro A has problems and won't work for you, try distro X,Y or Z. Or roll back to a more seasoned version of A. Example, I'm still running Debian Etch 4 until some of the bugs get worked out of Lenny 5.Use whatever works for you.
Whodo , you should continue to coordinate and I for one appreciate the work you do for Puppy.
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NathanO

Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 196
Location: San Antonio, TX

PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr 2009, 09:48    Post subject: Coordinator  

WhoDo,

Thaking over any project is a big job. 4.2 was a learning curve for everyone involved. Some of us out here, including me, were too pushy. I still have a problem with a 'new' 4.2 detecting my wirless card, but an 'upgrade' to 4.2 works. I will live with that in hopes that a future version will work 'new'. It may not be a Puppy problem but a kernel problem.

What would help everyone at this point is a time line to do the 'Bug Fixed' 4.2.x or 4.3, what ever you whish to call it. Lets say the end of April for the developers involved to fix the problems in the parts they are resposable for. You then do an Alpha 1 with 25% of the fixes on May 1. If those fixes work in most cases, then do Alpha 2 with the next 25%. Doing the fixes in groups will allow for easier finding of problems between the various updated programs. Lets say one version per week.

Once all updates have been put in and tested, then a Beta1 around June 1. Let it be out there for two weeks and if there are some major problems then a Beta2. If no major problems an RC 1. Have a target of July 1 for the final. No matter how much testing you do there will be problems that show up in the Official Release.

Then every one takes some time to relax and you set a start date for the next version.

My 2 cents worth, I hope it helps.

NathanO
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techtype

Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Posts: 181

PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr 2009, 09:57    Post subject:  

You should remain as coordinator -- an almost impossible job that you handle with knowledge, skill and tact that is irreplaceable. I can't imagine anyone else having the job. ecomoney should become the second known person to be banned along with his duplicate ids and the ip range of his urban zone if possible.
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10730
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr 2009, 10:00    Post subject:  

WhoDo To start with I would give you a 92/100 for the job you did, Before you go handing anything over to ecomoney maybe the poll should have more than 2 people, You could stick my name on it if you wanted to. I would rather you be the next coordinator than myself, but i'm sure as hell would never make a package/give support for ecomoney, he's just down right nasty!!
-If its 4.2.1 I would go back to the earlier cups which didn't have the permissions problems, but compile it from scratch. and use the newer libgnomecups packages.
- use the older abiword fix package I put together or let me compile the older versions etc. Or add the newer package and install the Tymes font and see if that works.
-Still against the bling turned on by default.
-I could compile the latest Seamonkey if you needed it?But that I would wait until maybe a week before you release it. They've been releasing a lot of versions lately and I don't want to get stuck doing it 2 or 3 times during a release build.
You have my full support WhoDo.
ttuuxxx

Ps I think Barry might want a stab at Puppy 5 since he mentioned at his blog that this weekend he's having a woof-a-thon and trying to release puppy 5.0 beta Upup by thursday the same day that Ubuntu
releases
Quote "Jaunty Jackalope is due for release on the 23rd (Thursday) ...I could upload a Jaunty Puppy beta2 on the same date, or day after. It will be fully functional, if we can pull out all the stops to fix a few things" and Quote""Jaunty Puppy" is looking real good. So good in fact that I would like to raise it as an item of discussion as a contender for the Puppy5 series. "

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gerry

Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 946
Location: England

PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr 2009, 10:04    Post subject:  

I'm still using 4.1.2. Why? Because I don't want to download bugfixes for 4.2 in bits and pieces from the forum, I'm waiting for a bugfixed version. That's ok for me, a long-term Puppy user, but a new recruit will go back to whence he/she came. So I think a bug-fix version should be on an urgent timescale. Anyway, I voted for WhoDo

Gerry
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01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 7547
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PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr 2009, 10:06    Post subject:  

Hmmmmmm....mmmm...m

The voting isn't working for me. Is Kevin Rudd planning to implement this voting system for federal elections? (due soon I'd say Laughing )

If it was working, I would sign up with another bodgy 24 emails and vote yes for each. Warren you're gone. Sorry. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

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DaveS


Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr 2009, 10:17    Post subject:  

I just cannot get around the fact that 4.1.1 wifi, printing and Abi worked for me, and 4.2 did not. OK, the community found and sorted the bugs, and posted patches which fixed everything, thank you all for that. So why on earth is there no 4.2.1 with these patches? There has to be an underlying reason, we just dont yet know what it is.
Should Whodo step down? Absolutely not! 4.2 was well co-ordinated and is a very nice distro. Should there be a 4.2.1? Of course. So why not?

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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
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Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr 2009, 10:38    Post subject:  

01micko wrote:
Hmmmmmm....mmmm...m

The voting isn't working for me. Is Kevin Rudd planning to implement this voting system for federal elections? (due soon I'd say Laughing )

If it was working, I would sign up with another bodgy 24 emails and vote yes for each. Warren you're gone. Sorry. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing


Mick I'm not sure with what your saying? Do you support Warren or want to see him step down? What I take from what you said is that if you could sign up on the forum with 24 fake names you would vote for him to step down? And what have ecomoney replace him? You wouldn't be saying that? would you?
ttuuxxx

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Trobin

Joined: 18 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Fri 17 Apr 2009, 10:59    Post subject:  

There is no doubt that the Abiword fix should be fixed. However I don't see any reason to toss out the coordinator over one bug.

Perhaps a note could be put on the web page explaining how to fix the bug, until a corrected version can be uploaded.

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