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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects » Next Puppy Development » 4.x
Pre Release Testing Methodologies for Puppy Linux
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Dougal


Joined: 19 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Apr 2009, 13:34    Post subject:  

ecomoney wrote:
The repos still dont contain openoffice, amsn or a recent firefox, most needed by linux newbs, although the packages exist Sad

Why all this possessiveness?

I don't know, but I can tell you that had I read ttuuxx's reply to Zigbert's Pshutdown post before making my last reply, I would have been much less civil towards him. Zigbert is one of the few worthy people on this forum -- something I can't say about ttuuxx.

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Dougal


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PostPosted: Wed 08 Apr 2009, 13:38    Post subject:  

MU wrote:
4.2 is great work, it allowed the comunity to add many addons or enhancements to the 4.12 base.
It has a conceptual and artistic focus (make Puppy more appealing, look nicer, offer beautifull addons like pwidgets).

A next step - Puppy 4.3 - might be focussing the "technical core" again.

- New Kernel ( UTF-8 )
- updated Glib/Gtk
- Xorg 7.4
- test/enhance the localization, e.g. add languagepacks (german.sfs, french.sfs ...)

- Avoid adding new programs / look / gimmicks

If you concentrate on these 4 points, it should take not too much time to release it.
A final step also might update some of the applications to the newest versions.

I completely disagree.
You need to upgrade glib/gtk, xorg and the kernel (and possible gcc first), then you need to recompile everything that depends on them, i.e. the entire filesystem.
That means that all the compiling ttuuxx was so proud of will have to be repeated after you got a new filesystem.
So all this is just a waste of time, as it doesn't solve the basic problems of getting Puppy to work. Making it look good and slick might be nice, but it is of no use when people can't use it at all (and there are plenty of examples on the forum of posts by people who had some problem and got no attention at all, since people were probably too busy playing with adding eyecandy (and add new bugs) to bother with trying to fix the existing problems. (and I won't even raise the question of whether some of those eyecandy items are "in the Puppy spirit" -- maybe some things where a certain way for a reason?)

(And should I ask why, if you think 4.2 is so good, were you (as one of the only "developers" around here) busy contributing instead to wow's "unnamed puplet"? Ahem)

A couple of technical points:
- utf8 has nothing to do with a new kernel: it's just a matter of inserting fs/nls/nls_utf8.ko during init, like the other two nls modules, then mounting partitions as utf8.
- sfs files should not be relied on for every little thing people want to add -- that's what dotpets are for. People who think it's smart to load 20 sfs files should try and actually use such a system on a memory constrained machine for a length of time and see how well it works. Then maybe read a bit about squashfs. (Also, using a dotpet you don't have to reboot. Just 'cause people are used to such silly behaviour from Windows doesn't make it right.)

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Dougal


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PostPosted: Wed 08 Apr 2009, 13:50    Post subject:  

WhoDo wrote:
My understanding was, from the various threads that were discussing the early development of 4.2, that you would be leading the core development part of the community effort for the 4.2 release. I coordinated the inclusion of whatever I was given, including making decisions about what was in or out. With very little input in the way of material changes to the core, except for some important changes to the init script, there was nothing for me to "coordinate" from that part of the program.

Barry and some of the old-timers wanted me to do it and I refused, partly due to technical limitations, but mostly because (as I stated on Barry's blog) there's nothing to coordinate.
Who are the "maintainers" you work with? The only maintainers around here I can think about are me (unofficially maintaining rarsa'a network-wizard, just because I'm the one who bothered to try and fix and improve it) and people like Sigmund and Jason Pline (plinej) (and gyro etc.), who went ahead and wrote P* apps and by default are their maintainers (and disciple, with things like the trash appdir). And there's tempestuous, obviously, the Puppy janitor, cleaning up after others and trying to get things working for users.
So, as far as I'm concerned, 4.20 is basically a WhoDo/ttuuxx puplet.

Quote:
I'm pleased to note that you have recognised the focus of 4.2 was NOT to produce "a whole new distro", and your clear recognition that what we produced was indeed only a "polish", packages and usability update from 4.1.2, as I foreshadowed way back when the project started. That's why I wasn't too worried when guys like you and tempestuous didn't take a whole lot of interest in the Deep Thought project.

Quote:
If there is some serious effort to update the core, including a new T2 build from Barry, then 4.3 will be the eventual product and that will require a significantly longer testing cycle, more involvement from core devs like you and tempestuous, and less emphasis on packages and polish.

This shows what the basic problem: when Barry announced his retirement*, you folks went ahead and planned a new release, instead of starting from the ground and getting together a group of people who can actually build a distro (as I put it back then: first be able to replicate the existing Puppy, before you go and try to enhance it).
So where are you now? You're planning on Barry to get the new build done for you -- but he's supposed to be gone!
I'm not attacking you or anything, I'm just pointing out the reality, as it seems like Lobster has spiked some people's drinks around here...

Quote:
Why do you think muggins needs the "keys to the official repos"? If he needs something included there, that can be coordinated through me for the next release. I don't see the problem.

Anyone who's been on this forum for a while should have noticed by now that muggins has been posting dotpups/dotpets to the forum on a daily basis for the past few years (even now that he's in Tazzie -- is that a vacation, or was W'gong too warm for him??) -- and that's not the way to go. Someone like him should be given the power to create "official" packages (following some guidelines about how they should be made) and upload them to the repository, then update packages.txt before every release (and no, he shouldn't have to get permission from you for every package, as he is in a better position that you to decide if the package is ok or not! He's the one who saw the sources and compiled them). As it is now, he is a "wated resource".

And please will everybody stop talking about Git? Git is an SCM. The "S" stands for source. What should be in git is directories with the various Puppy scripts and sources for Puppy-specific apps. Not compiled binaries or tarballs -- there is no point in that. And it certainly won't change the way things work around here -- people moving their arses will.

*- I don't really consider Barry as being retired from Puppy: the only way to keep him away from Puppy is to keep him away from computers... so all he did was escape the responsibility of "having" to care about problems people are having -- since Puppy is his toy, not something he created to add any more stress to his life (hey, I'd say moving to Middle Of Nowhere, WA is probably a matter of trying to escape responsibilities...).

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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Apr 2009, 14:23    Post subject:  

Dougal wrote:
ecomoney wrote:


Why all this possessiveness?

I don't know, but I can tell you that had I read ttuuxx's reply to Zigbert's Pshutdown post before making my last reply, I would have been much less civil towards him. Zigbert is one of the few worthy people on this forum -- something I can't say about ttuuxx.


Hey why do you brig that crap into here, Zigbert started it 4.2 beta and continued it again 2 days ago, Dougal really if your going to get involved, Go jump off a bridge first,
Then get out of the water, shake your head and get the water out of your ears, Get toweled off. Feel refreshed?? good:) Now listen closely.

I've really had enough crap with Zigbert and his crap apllications and shit sirring attitude. This will end up bad if you continue raising it. Do you not think I can't read, or do you not think I won't respond, what are you thinking by making that statement in this thread? It was bad enough in the other threads, let it go!!!!.
ttuuxxx

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Last edited by ttuuxxx on Wed 08 Apr 2009, 21:59; edited 1 time in total
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Apr 2009, 14:37    Post subject:  

[quote="Dougal"]
MU wrote:

That means that all the compiling ttuuxx was so proud of will have to be repeated after you got a new filesystem.
So all this is just a waste of time,


I would do it all again in a heartbeat if WhoDo asked, really you have a condescending tone about you. I don't think Barry ever changed glib,gtk in a series model. That would be stupid and confusing for anybody downloading official packages from 4 series at the repo.
Thats what series 5.0 will be, 4.2 was to show we could continue on and we did, and to call that a puplet your really pushing things. Go take a break, and lose your rude, ungrateful attitude.
ttuuxxx

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playdayz


Joined: 25 Apr 2008
Posts: 3789

PostPosted: Wed 08 Apr 2009, 16:39    Post subject:  

I would like to second this by MU and WhoDo.

MU wrote:
Quote:
4.2 is great work, it allowed the community to add many addons or enhancements to the 4.12 base.
It has a conceptual and artistic focus (make Puppy more appealing, look nicer, offer beautiful addons like pwidgets).

WhoDo wrote
Quote:
Exactly! And don't forget it was also intended to be easier to use for refugees as well. There were quite a number of relatively small usability "tweaks" to that end.

MU wrote:
Quote:
A next step - Puppy 4.3 - might be focusing the "technical core" again.


First, In order to use Puppy on my big machine in a production environment it must have an smp kernel and advanced video capabilities. Wow and MU have got something going on in my opinion, which is why I am using Unanmed and NewYearsPup on that machine and I am very close to having a full production environment on it. I teach online college courses so I must have audio and video production, web production, advanced image editing, and a full office environment at the least. I do not think all of those things have to be built in to a Puppy rather imho they should be one-click install; preferably present in the Puppy Package Manager--the best linux programs for those jobs, carefully tailored to work seamlessly with Puppy the latest stable releases with all features working well. There's some work for some people. So I am advocating a small puppy for my thinkpad and a "Big Dog" with all the soul and style of Puppy for my work.

The presence of just 10 to 20 more of the latest stable versions of the best Linux programs in the Package Manager along with the two official versions of Puppy, big and little, seem to me a sound vision for the future. And if we are really clever then both versions of Puppy can use the same programs! OpenOffice of course, K-Office, Gimp, Scribus, Audacity, Wine, Kompozer, Inkscape... I don't think it would be too hard to make a list and start people working on them (some are already available in the forums of course: Audacity (disciple) etc.


Second...Here's a news flash...WhoDo did not solve all the problems of the linux world in his 4 months supervising the production of Puppy 4.2. But as I said I am a teacher of online courses and I have never seen anyone put such energy into replying honestly and in depth with great patience to so many disparate and often provocative messages. it is a great thing to have seen. It was his to set the vision and his to make the choices and he did. Good. I am glad I got to see it all and I think it is something to be proud of. Now, please, let's go forward.
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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
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Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

PostPosted: Wed 08 Apr 2009, 17:05    Post subject:  

For the record, my intention with Git is to simplify the constructive process of Puppy. It is not a magic bullet. It is not something the average user will know or care about. (The average tester may want to know and care about it, but for only testing, it is optional). The intention is to shift the burden of implementing things off of WhoDo's back and onto the backs of the people who want the things implemented, and to make it easier for people to see into his tree to check that things are as they should be.

It will not in itself make Puppy any better or worse. It will simply alter the way in which a new Puppy is put together, hopefully easing testing a little bit and making implementation a little less error-prone.

So I'm clear: Users and ISO-testers will not be expected to know anything about Git. It's a "dev thing".

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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Apr 2009, 20:51    Post subject:  

Not that Im disagreeing Dougal/anyone...but the point of the thread is to provide a summary of practical suggestions on what can be improved about puppy development in the future.

Can I summerize you as saying Dougal, that regular contributors need to be welcome to contribute to new releases, and in a more easygoing (fun?) environment?

In that case Ttuxxx for everyones sake you need to "rein it in" a little (christ you can even get me riled). Im sure your often valid points will come across better a lot more if you do.

@ Whodo
Quote:
Exactly! And don't forget it was also intended to be easier to use for refugees as well.


A extremely noble cause....Very very nearly there, with the exception of abiword problem.

I agree, firefox 3 is just not stable enough yet. People do want to see the software they want to use in the official repos though (rather than hunting for it on the web). Perhaps .pet installers that will download separately the huge bulk of openoffice/firefox...I believe there is a script (postinstall) to do it? Or would the new package system be able to handle it?

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ecomoney


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PostPosted: Wed 08 Apr 2009, 21:00    Post subject:  

Just a note...Ttuxxxs 4.2 "deeper" thought is essentially a bugfixed 4.2, minus the "bling".

Perhaps an easy way of getting 4.2.1 out of the door and the key devs onward to better things would be to just use Deeper thought and "put the bling back in"....and do a thorough testing cycle (we could use it as a trial run of the new testing procedures...testing the testing?)

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droope


Joined: 31 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Apr 2009, 21:49    Post subject:  

Sorry for the oft, am i the only one who has fun reading ttuuxx explosions? Laughing
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ttuuxxx


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PostPosted: Wed 08 Apr 2009, 22:00    Post subject:  

droope wrote:
Sorry for the oft, am i the only one who has fun reading ttuuxx explosions? Laughing

Ya I've updated the first comment Smile

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ecomoney


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PostPosted: Wed 08 Apr 2009, 22:02    Post subject:  

I guess peoples idea of "fun" depends on the person. Rolling Eyes
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droope


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PostPosted: Wed 08 Apr 2009, 22:02    Post subject:  

Everyone has a bad day Wink
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ecomoney


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PostPosted: Wed 08 Apr 2009, 22:08    Post subject:  

Quote:
Everyone has a bad day


this was one of mine. Wink

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NathanO

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PostPosted: Wed 08 Apr 2009, 22:44    Post subject: New Puppy  

With so many 4.2 threads going on at one time I have loat track of the proper place to post a request for what I would like to see in the next update of Puppy. Which thread should one use?????
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