Getting to Heaven (Caution: religious discussion)

[EarlSmith]

AAHHAAA, I never flame..and rarely get angry...and never about religion.
First let me say I am not at this moment a Christian. Over the past few months I have started to read the Bible. I have seen examples of true Christians and can find no better people in my experience. So I want to see if there is something real about what they believe and if it could apply to me.
You truly must, if you want to understand, read and study the Bible before you can form a realistic opinion. I have learned things about Christianty that I never had even a hint of before.
My previous post on this subject is a summary of what I learned in the Bible. It may be right or wrong, but it is what I found in the Bible.

[Auda]

Hmm, the bible a good book with some interesting passages in it. Its interesting note how some parts are ignored. I forget were I found this :

Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's
Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to
share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone
tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply
remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an
abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you,
however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow
them.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it
creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my
neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I
smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as
sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think
would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she
is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The
problem is - how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women
take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both
male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring
nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans,
but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.
Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally
obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is
an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than
homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God
if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear
reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some
wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including
the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly
forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead
pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear
gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two
different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing
garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester
blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really
necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town
together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them
to death at a private family affair like we do with people who
sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14).
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am
confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that
God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and
adoring fan.

I would rather be a heathen in a nominally christian country than any other religion, they tend to be more tollerant.

Auda

[syzygy]

don't know how true it is but i've heard that krishnamurti lived in a log cabin in the appalachian mountains, sometime in the '40s, and stuck a stick, that he'd found in the forest, on his mantelpiece & proceeded to worhip it for the next few weeks.

supposedly after a few weeks of devotion to this stick it assumed some importance in his daily life. but it was just a stick!

his point being that we have a superstitious gene & are capable of believing in anything. just look at the john frum cult.

at one time i was on the mailing list for scientology, (not that i was ever a believer). i couldn't believe it when i got a letter from L.ron hubbard telling me he was deceased! i threw it in the bin straight away. later I regretted this as it realised it could be a future religious artifact!

in australia scientology never had tax exemption as a religion until the mid '70s. when someone queried the minister responsible about recognising such a nonsense as a religion, he replied something to the effect that it would be a slippery slope if governments started questioning the bona fides of religion.

also australian farmers & surfies know god by the first name hughie. in a drought farmers will pray for rain by looking to the heavens & asking "send her down Hughie".

enough of my tripe...see youse later

[Guest]

There may not be a God but there sure as hell is a Devil, he's the one who forces those people to send out spam, viruses, trojans, spyware and the like.

[syzygy]

if you define god as omniscient, omnipresent & omnipotent, then the origination of evil is always going to be a blind-spot in your god's eye.

if god created "everything", then god created satan, the source of evil, so god is the original source of evil.

(doesn't norton's incapacipate your system more than any virus could?).

[Ian]

syzgy has a point there, sometimes the cure can be worse than the problem.

It seems that nothing ever changes, take the binary action of a digital computer, this can be related to the beginning of time.

The computer says 'yes' or 'no' does this sound familiar!!

[Pizzasgood]

Evil isn't a thing, it is a choice.

Free will is different from evil. He may have made him and given him free will, but he chose to screw things up. Dad may have given me the rifle (to hunt) but he did not make me shoot the sherrif. (But I swear it was in self defense. Sherrif John Brown always hated me, for what I do not know...)

If I had a kid who grew up and he built a homemade flamethrower from parts from the hardware store, ran around burning stuff, and shot a cop, did I kill the cop? I assure you, I didn't shoot the deputy. (The sherrif was another matter.)

[gliezl]

if god created "everything", then god created satan, the source of evil, so god is the original source of evil.

Did you exaclty read your Bible and conclude in such **** statement?

God did not create Satan, He created Lucifer which means "Light bearer". He is a perfert being. Lucifer choose to be Satan and have chosen the dark side. He allowed pride to rule his heart. Check the book of Isaiah. 14:12-14
"12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

[syzygy]

when i was a kid i used to win prizes for knowing the bible best, at sunday school, even though i had decided it was wrong. i first came to this decision when reading how god was giving the laws to the jews, in old testament, and there was a lesser punishment if a man killed a slave, than if he killed a freeman. (what, god believes in slavery? a theologian told me that it was relevant in those days, to which i responded "what, god's laws change with the times?).

it's a slippery slope when you start supporting your belief with bible quotations, because elsewhere there will be something saying the exact opposite.

most believers take as literal those bits that support their belief, and anything that doesn't, or that states the opposite, they say isn't meant to be read literally, but allegorically.

the classic example that i can think of is when jesus says:-

Luke 14:26 - If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple

now most christians would say that this means not to hate your relatives, but not to love them more than god. (why didn't he just say that?).

on a different tangent there used to be a comedian who used to orate at the speaker's corner, in sydney, dressed all in black & proclaiming that he was the antichrist. people would get upset with him & accuse him of blaspheming. he would respond something like, "my dear fellow, i am the antichrist, of course i'm blaspheming, that's in the selection criteria for the position!".

another thing that he maintained, and i don't think i ever saw anyone come up with a satisfactory refutation was, "satan is the deciever. tell me one instance in the bible where satan ever told a lie?".

this is his website:-

http://www.users.bigpond.com/pontificate/

will i be end up being banished to puppy hell?

[Lobster]

Once you know that 'Lucifer' and the 'morning star; is one of the names for Venus - this is no longer neccessarily based on naughty Angels but has a different angle:

"12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

In Buddhism, the Buddha gained enlightenment with the rising of Lucifer (The morning star). It is one of the stars or planets you can sometimes see at dawn with the naked eye.

[Ian]

You already are in Puppy hell, well, if you choose to read my gibberish on this forum it is a form of hell, or so I have been told, I wouldn't know, I just wake up in the morning and the ideas start to flow.
Even when I am asleep the thought process never stops so I don't know if I am awake, asleep, half awake or half asleep.

On a more serious note as I said before it doesn't matter what your beliefs are so long as you are happy with them, it is the unhappy people who need help and help can come in many forms.

A kind word, a shoulder to cry on, the realisation that they are not alone in the world and that people really do care about them, the offer of faith, any of these things can be a comfort to troubled people.

EXCEPT THE MONGREL WHO STOLE THE BACK SUNSHADE OFF MY CAR IN 1984.!!

[Guest]

A little boy asked his minister if you go to heaven laying nude and spreadeagled and the minister asked why he would ask such a question qandf the little boy replied that the maid was nude and spreadeagled and he thought she was going to heaven when she cried out "God I'm coming" but said his dad saved her by staying on top of her and holding her down.

[syzygy]

regarding lobster's post about lucifer being the morning star, what does this quote mean:-

Revelation 22:16 - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

also satan in old testament wasn't necessarily evil, but was the real "devil's" advocate. see:-

http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/ ... /satan.asp

i particularly like the image suggested by Job 1:6, which is translated in king james version as:

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

it must be my black sense of humour as i always imagine them having tea & scones as they progressively inflict carbuncles & other miseries on job, in order to show how devout he is.

[aahhaaa]

Did you exaclty read your Bible and conclude in such **** statement?

God did not create Satan, He created Lucifer which means "Light bearer". He is a perfert being. Lucifer choose to be Satan and have chosen the dark side. He allowed pride to rule his heart. Check the book of Isaiah. 14:12-14
"12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

Sorry, but this passage is not about Satan, but about the king of Babylon.
Some translations use the word Lucifer here (as a synonym or insult) for the king's primary title- child of Shamash, the sun-god.
Here are 6 different English translations of this passage. Some use use the word Lucifer, some don't.

How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, who laid the nations low! (WEB)

How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst lay low the nations! (ASV)

How great is your fall from heaven, O shining one, son of the morning! How are you cut down to the earth, low among the dead bodies! (BBE)

How art thou fallen from heaven, Lucifer, son of the morning! Thou art cut down to the ground, that didst prostrate the nations! (DBY)

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (KJV)

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (WBS)

How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, that didst cast lots over the nations! (JPS)

How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations. (YLT)

This is clear looking at a fuller passage:
And it shall come to pass in the day that Jehovah shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy trouble, and from the hard service wherein thou wast made to serve, that thou shalt take up this parable against the king of Babylon, and say,

"How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! Jehovah hath broken the staff of the wicked, the scepter of the rulers; that smote the peoples in wrath with a continual stroke, that ruled the nations in anger, with a persecution that none restrained."
The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing. Yea, the fir-trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
"Since thou art laid low, no hewer is come up against us. Sheol from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming; it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
"All they shall answer and say unto thee, "Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?" Thy pomp is brought down to Sheol, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and worms cover thee.

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O day-star, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, that didst lay low the nations! And thou saidst in thy heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; and I will sit upon the mount of congregation, in the uttermost parts of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." Yet thou shalt be brought down to Sheol, to the uttermost parts of the pit. They that see thee shall gaze at thee, they shall consider thee, saying, "Is this the man that made the earth tremble, that did shake kingdoms; that made the world as a wilderness, and overthrew the cities thereof; that let not loose his prisoners to their home?"
"All the kings of the nations, all of them, sleep in glory, every one in his own house. But thou art cast forth away from thy sepulchre like an abominable branch, clothed with the slain, that are thrust through with the sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a dead body trodden under foot. Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because because thou hast destroyed the land, thou hast slain thy people; the seed of evildoers shall not be named for ever."

[noip]

An interesting explanation of the origin of heaven and hell I became aware of recently, is that there was a valley where the dead were placed. Those of station etc had tombs in the caves high up on the valley walls, whereas criminals who had been executed were burnt in fires on the valley floor.

And, I also learnt that just like the Beatles, there were 5 apostles and that the book of Thomas (I think it is) has been ... er .. edited out of the final draft.

GS

ftgs