Puppy 4.2 Bling Or No Bling ANNONYMOUS POLL
binding what could be optional extras into a distribution
Microsoft lead the (bad) way ...
They purposively limited user-choice by binding IE core routines into their OS.
Puppy official forces users to use Seamonkey. But it becomes more than that: the Gecko layout/rendering engine becomes seen as a core part of Puppy so that Puppy developers can expect it to be there for further application development.
Puppy is great, no doubt about it, but no such status remains forever certain.
DSL was mentioned somewhere in the passing by zigbert (as being for embedded systems: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... start=1890). DSL certainly was/is limited and better sometimes for older systems (since using an older kernel). Yet, for most of its life it remained above Puppy in terms of overall popularity (at least if we are to believe Distrowatch). But quite suddenly really, DSL appears to be almost dead, (and look at Puppy sitting high on Distrowatch now).
But out of DSL there is born a new contender (with new kernel) arising out of the ashes of DSL's much publicised internal bickering and breakup. TC isn't high on Distrowatch as yet (such takes time) and its 10 MByte core distribution is by design no full-blown desktop at all - but the concept is there for producing Puplet like TC-based distributions to any specification required.
For now Puppy is best, but I'd hate to see it lose out through repeating any of the (on purpose) "mistakes" of Microsoft.
They purposively limited user-choice by binding IE core routines into their OS.
Puppy official forces users to use Seamonkey. But it becomes more than that: the Gecko layout/rendering engine becomes seen as a core part of Puppy so that Puppy developers can expect it to be there for further application development.
Puppy is great, no doubt about it, but no such status remains forever certain.
DSL was mentioned somewhere in the passing by zigbert (as being for embedded systems: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... start=1890). DSL certainly was/is limited and better sometimes for older systems (since using an older kernel). Yet, for most of its life it remained above Puppy in terms of overall popularity (at least if we are to believe Distrowatch). But quite suddenly really, DSL appears to be almost dead, (and look at Puppy sitting high on Distrowatch now).
But out of DSL there is born a new contender (with new kernel) arising out of the ashes of DSL's much publicised internal bickering and breakup. TC isn't high on Distrowatch as yet (such takes time) and its 10 MByte core distribution is by design no full-blown desktop at all - but the concept is there for producing Puplet like TC-based distributions to any specification required.
For now Puppy is best, but I'd hate to see it lose out through repeating any of the (on purpose) "mistakes" of Microsoft.
Re: binding what could be optional extras into a distributio
See your point there, but what do you suggest?mcewanw wrote:Microsoft lead the (bad) way ...
They purposively limited user-choice by binding IE core routines into their OS.
Puppy official forces users to use Seamonkey. But it becomes more than that: the Gecko layout/rendering engine becomes seen as a core part of Puppy so that Puppy developers can expect it to be there for further application development.
(sorry for off topic!)
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Re: Is bling not bloat because just 222 kB?
It is not enough just to disable what could/should be an optional extra. At the very least there should be a "button" which allows the user to automatically remove any such "extra" entirely01micko wrote: Well yes it is there by default but can be switched off in 4 clicks.
. . .
what do you suggest?
[as indeed Microsoft seems to be offering in Windows 7 when it comes to IE (not that Microsoft's compromised practice is ever the best model to follow with confidence)]
Like I said, not my decision, fair idea though. Maybe `pet-be-gone´ should have been included in the release but it isn´t.
WhoDo is doing what he thinks is best for Puppy. Time is the true test...
WhoDo is doing what he thinks is best for Puppy. Time is the true test...
Puppy Linux Blog - contact me for access
sorry accidentally double posted whilst editing
see next post
Last edited by mcewanw on Mon 23 Mar 2009, 02:30, edited 1 time in total.
stable/essential core + good package management/repository
Yes. Such a facility is every bit as useful/important as the installation part of a package manager + repository; automated removal is every bit as key as automated installation.01micko wrote:Maybe `pet-be-gone´ should have been included in the release.
The Puppy community still has to remain vigilant to the danger of treating default components as "core". If something becomes inherent (such as Gecko) and is then used by developers to create other major parts of the system, it can reach a stage where Gecko could not be removed without damaging the overall operation of much of the distribution. Microsoft always used to argue that they couldn't remove IE for exactly that reason.
There is a danger of such an effect applying to any component/application given the status of system core; hence the importance that all such components are clearly marked in some way as optional or essential.
I am a (relatively) new puppy linux user.
When I saw that screen shot of the fancy analogue clock and desktop graphical interface, I immediately thought of windows vista, and its sidebar.
Ironically, I have only hours earlier installed puppy linux 4.1.2 on a new laptop, because I was fed up with windows vista, and its various annoyances. For example it uses 1G of ram, when no extra applications are open. Also, a large percentage of older applications are incompatible.
I know a little about programming, not much (certainly nothing about linux, and I find I don't understand most of your tutorials ) but it has caused me to appreciate the simple programs which perform their function well much more than the "bling" as you call it. A nice user interface is good, to a point (which I think has already been reached).
I wouldn't complain at all if this bling was optional, and not integrated into the system itself and unable to be removed. But who really wants a fancy analogue clock on their computer?
Its almost as if computers have become a fashion accessory...
When I saw that screen shot of the fancy analogue clock and desktop graphical interface, I immediately thought of windows vista, and its sidebar.
Ironically, I have only hours earlier installed puppy linux 4.1.2 on a new laptop, because I was fed up with windows vista, and its various annoyances. For example it uses 1G of ram, when no extra applications are open. Also, a large percentage of older applications are incompatible.
I know a little about programming, not much (certainly nothing about linux, and I find I don't understand most of your tutorials ) but it has caused me to appreciate the simple programs which perform their function well much more than the "bling" as you call it. A nice user interface is good, to a point (which I think has already been reached).
I wouldn't complain at all if this bling was optional, and not integrated into the system itself and unable to be removed. But who really wants a fancy analogue clock on their computer?
Its almost as if computers have become a fashion accessory...
- yorkiesnorkie
- Posts: 504
- Joined: Mon 04 Jun 2007, 13:11
- Location: George's Island
NO BLING
Absolutely no bling please. Puppy is pleasant and functional.
This dressing up the desktop should be entirely optional.
Here's an example of "blinging" muddying the waters. They just deployed MS Office 2007 here, and it is one piece of &^%$*#$ garbage, but someone thought it looked pretty. When I want a word processor to resemble a tabbed web page I'll ask. Form should follow function. Deploying 07 has just slowed productivity to a crawl company wide. Nobody can find anything, the traditional menu system is gone, and the features are buried, hidden, and command key's renamed. Who needs bling? I don't.
Keep puppy doing what it does best that's why we love it.
Yorkiesnorkie
This dressing up the desktop should be entirely optional.
Here's an example of "blinging" muddying the waters. They just deployed MS Office 2007 here, and it is one piece of &^%$*#$ garbage, but someone thought it looked pretty. When I want a word processor to resemble a tabbed web page I'll ask. Form should follow function. Deploying 07 has just slowed productivity to a crawl company wide. Nobody can find anything, the traditional menu system is gone, and the features are buried, hidden, and command key's renamed. Who needs bling? I don't.
Keep puppy doing what it does best that's why we love it.
Yorkiesnorkie
At uni they spent a year studying whether to "upgrade" to Vista and 2007... in the end they went with 2007 but thankfully not Vista. Now after a year of using 2007 at uni I'm trying to avoid having my work computer upgraded to "a faster (quad core) machine more suitable for CAD", because I'm pretty sure it'll have 2007 If I do end up with 2007 I think I might use OOo.Deploying 07 has just slowed productivity to a crawl company wide.
Do you know a good gtkdialog program? Please post a link here
Classic Puppy quotes
ROOT FOREVER
GTK2 FOREVER
Classic Puppy quotes
ROOT FOREVER
GTK2 FOREVER
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- Posts: 544
- Joined: Thu 22 Jan 2009, 14:20
Functionality first
Functionality first, then some bling
It's almost as if the people at Microsoft were thinking, "These users are getting too good at using our system. Let's really stick it to them. We'll make a completely new interface with everything in a new location so no one can find anything. Let's call it something stupid like 'The Ribbon' and make it so big it covers a third of their screen."Office 2007
Cripes..I have a group of Librarians that are about to burst with frustration with Office 2007.
Not only has it caused a major mess in their daily computer tasks, it has started a very serious conversation about how to get out of the mess Office 2007 has created.
I will be surprised if 2007 survives much longer on the library computers..even after paying for legal copies...big money too.
I think Open Office will soon be getting a MUCH more serious look by many users.
Eric
EDIT: I should add that bling is good...as long as it's not the end all and do all for the OS..remember it's just eye candy. I like eye candy if it makes a user happy. If it interferes then dump it and move on. Pwidgets are really cool..keep it coming.
Not only has it caused a major mess in their daily computer tasks, it has started a very serious conversation about how to get out of the mess Office 2007 has created.
I will be surprised if 2007 survives much longer on the library computers..even after paying for legal copies...big money too.
I think Open Office will soon be getting a MUCH more serious look by many users.
Eric
EDIT: I should add that bling is good...as long as it's not the end all and do all for the OS..remember it's just eye candy. I like eye candy if it makes a user happy. If it interferes then dump it and move on. Pwidgets are really cool..keep it coming.
[color=darkred][i]Be not afraid to grow slowly, only be afraid of standing still.[/i]
Chinese Proverb[/color]
Chinese Proverb[/color]
Form should follow functionality, but there is no reason why it cant be attractive looking to boot! (Why do you think Apple Macs are so popular and expensive?)
Making puppy use colours when drawing the screen, instead of shades of old-looking and boring grey does not cost any extra processing time.
Pwidgets inclusion in puppy does slow it down *somewhat* on a techniclal level, but the time it saves users in being able to find their desktop shortcuts, access their wireless, etc etc and generally decreasing the time for "learning curve" more than makes up for the slightly decreased processing overhead.
Making puppy use colours when drawing the screen, instead of shades of old-looking and boring grey does not cost any extra processing time.
Pwidgets inclusion in puppy does slow it down *somewhat* on a techniclal level, but the time it saves users in being able to find their desktop shortcuts, access their wireless, etc etc and generally decreasing the time for "learning curve" more than makes up for the slightly decreased processing overhead.
Puppy Linux's [url=http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=296352#296352]Mission[/url]
Sorry, my server is down atm!
Sorry, my server is down atm!
Hi ecomoney,
I agree...form and function are like hand and glove.
I set up a lady awhile back on her half broken, overheated machine (hd controllers were gone) using a bootable usb flash and a usb flash drive swap...she used it for about a year and then her son bought a Mac for her.
She still misses her Puppy install as she got used to a basic/understandable setup without bling...except her install was very good looking (EZPup) and in the end the lesson for me was no extras for normal users...just what works, is working enough.
Eric
I agree...form and function are like hand and glove.
I set up a lady awhile back on her half broken, overheated machine (hd controllers were gone) using a bootable usb flash and a usb flash drive swap...she used it for about a year and then her son bought a Mac for her.
She still misses her Puppy install as she got used to a basic/understandable setup without bling...except her install was very good looking (EZPup) and in the end the lesson for me was no extras for normal users...just what works, is working enough.
Eric
[color=darkred][i]Be not afraid to grow slowly, only be afraid of standing still.[/i]
Chinese Proverb[/color]
Chinese Proverb[/color]
- ttuuxxx
- Posts: 11171
- Joined: Sat 05 May 2007, 10:00
- Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia
- Contact:
Yes all I need is nice icons and wallpaper, I have no need for nothing else,when I don't see it once I open a window. I figure if users want something add it on, like wbar or pwidgets or download a puplet with it included. etc simple. I like my system fast and stable, not waiting around for fixmenus to take a min of double of the time it used to.
ttuuxxx
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)
And a nice window boarder too!ttuuxxx wrote:Yes all I need is nice icons and wallpaper, I have no need for nothing else,when I don't see it once I open a window. I figure if users want something add it on, like wbar or pwidgets or download a puplet with it included. etc simple. I like my system fast and stable, not waiting around for fixmenus to take a min of double of the time it used to.
ttuuxxx
The less bling the better. On my old,slow computer 4.1.2 is markedly faster in loading to the desktop than 4.2 rc4 .....seems like it takes forever to get the widgets loaded. I know they can be turned off, but I usually run live without a savefile.Got a spare partition on a faster box waiting for 4.20 to be released though.
- ttuuxxx
- Posts: 11171
- Joined: Sat 05 May 2007, 10:00
- Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia
- Contact:
here guys I made it up, download and info below
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 236#289236
ttuuxxx
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 236#289236
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)