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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
Puppy 4.2 Bling Or No Bling ANNONYMOUS POLL
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01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 7841
Location: qld

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar 2009, 00:08    Post subject: Re: no bloat  

mcewanw wrote:
I voted for: no bloat, no bling. Keep adding bloat and you'll soon lose users/market.

I had already stated my opinion about such matters in another thread concerning why people still use old versions of Puppy, so I won't repeat that here; I couldn't care less how old or new the computer is, I loathe bloat (which is in any case easier to add later than to remove later). My opinion is expressed here:

One day we will have to become responsible world citizens. The Modern Desktop: in the future their will be no room for stupid bloat and not having to maintain such extravagance will give us back some free time too! Smile


Hereś something I cannot comprehend. Pwidgets is, and absolutely is unashamed BLING. However it doesn´t make much clang. Is it bloat? 222KB?

This thread is about BLING not BLOAT!

Cool

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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10847
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar 2009, 00:13    Post subject:  

01micko wrote:
Hang on,Mick

Mick its nothing to do with Pwidgets, its more to do with the backend Conky, thats where the resources are being taken, Back in 302CE days I was against conky being installed and I was a co-coordinator, WhoDo knew from the start where I stood on Conky, I did give you a couple of alternatives about 2 weeks ago, which if you guys investigated them you'll notice they take almost no resources and the render layers on the desktop way better than conky and have a better gui, plus they it was made for plugins. It would of been a much better backend system. plus you could of used lots of prepackage plugins. and it was 1/4 the size. If you spent like 1 -2 days trying that system you would notice it would of been worth the switch. Anyways its too late now.
ttuuxxx

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floborg


Joined: 25 Oct 2007
Posts: 194
Location: Fort Worth, TX

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar 2009, 00:18    Post subject: Re: Ummmm...  

Flash858 wrote:
Call me simplistic, but how about 2 separate packages for each release?

Puppy 4.2, and Puppy 4.2B (for "bling")...

Seems like a .pet could be created for all of the extra features.

Just my $.02, adjusted for inflation...


Like EZpup? I guess there will be no EZPup 4.2.

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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10847
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar 2009, 00:18    Post subject: Re: no bloat  

01micko wrote:
mcewanw wrote:
I voted for: no bloat, no bling. Keep adding bloat and you'll soon lose users/market.

I had already stated my opinion about such matters in another thread concerning why people still use old versions of Puppy, so I won't repeat that here; I couldn't care less how old or new the computer is, I loathe bloat (which is in any case easier to add later than to remove later). My opinion is expressed here:

One day we will have to become responsible world citizens. The Modern Desktop: in the future their will be no room for stupid bloat and not having to maintain such extravagance will give us back some free time too! Smile


Hereś something I cannot comprehend. Pwidgets is, and absolutely is unashamed BLING. However it doesn´t make much clang. Is it bloat? 222KB?

This thread is about BLING not BLOAT!

Cool


ahhhhhhh you dropped your conky size down by a lot excellent Smile
pwidgets plus the old conky was around 500kb now it 222kb must of removed a lot of comments to reduce it that much Smile
ttuuxxx

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01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 7841
Location: qld

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar 2009, 00:19    Post subject:  

Quote:
WhoDo knew from the start where I stood on Conky, I did give you a couple of alternatives about 2 weeks ago, which if you guys investigated them you'll notice they take almost no resources and the render layers on the desktop way better than conky and have a better gui, plus they it was made for plugins. It would of been a much better backend system. plus you could of used lots of prepackage plugins. and it was 1/4 the size. If you spent like 1 -2 days trying that system you would notice it would of been worth the switch. Anyways its too late now.



At the late stage of development it was too late then mate Crying or Very sad

Any how, Patriot did significantly Improve Conky, and really now, it isn´t the issue.

Isn´t the issue now to make a bling free puplet?

Cheers

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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10847
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar 2009, 00:24    Post subject:  

01micko wrote:
Quote:
WhoDo knew from the start where I stood on Conky, I did give you a couple of alternatives about 2 weeks ago, which if you guys investigated them you'll notice they take almost no resources and the render layers on the desktop way better than conky and have a better gui, plus they it was made for plugins. It would of been a much better backend system. plus you could of used lots of prepackage plugins. and it was 1/4 the size. If you spent like 1 -2 days trying that system you would notice it would of been worth the switch. Anyways its too late now.



At the late stage of development it was too late then mate Crying or Very sad

Any how, Patriot did significantly Improve Conky, and really now, it isn´t the issue.

Isn´t the issue now to make a bling free puplet?

Cheers


Yes Mick now the issue is to make a unofficial official like puppy version, I was thinking about calling it
'Puppies 4.2 Deeper thought' hows that grab you? lol
ttuuxxx

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01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 7841
Location: qld

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar 2009, 00:27    Post subject:  

ttuuxxx wrote:
01micko wrote:
Quote:
WhoDo knew from the start where I stood on Conky, I did give you a couple of alternatives about 2 weeks ago, which if you guys investigated them you'll notice they take almost no resources and the render layers on the desktop way better than conky and have a better gui, plus they it was made for plugins. It would of been a much better backend system. plus you could of used lots of prepackage plugins. and it was 1/4 the size. If you spent like 1 -2 days trying that system you would notice it would of been worth the switch. Anyways its too late now.



At the late stage of development it was too late then mate Crying or Very sad

Any how, Patriot did significantly Improve Conky, and really now, it isn´t the issue.

Isn´t the issue now to make a bling free puplet?

Cheers


Yes Mick now the issue is to make a unofficial official like puppy version, I was thinking about calling it
'Puppies 4.2 Deeper thought' hows that grab you? lol
ttuuxxx


A little bit cheeky! I bet you were a cheeky kid!lol!

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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10847
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar 2009, 00:34    Post subject:  

01micko wrote:


A little bit cheeky! I bet you were a cheeky kid!lol!


Ya I was always getting slapped for being cheeky as a kid, sometimes my mother would slap me because her hand was hurting because she was slapping me so much for being cheeky, lol Very Happy
ttuuxxx

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brymway

Joined: 08 Dec 2007
Posts: 410

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar 2009, 01:49    Post subject:  

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Last edited by brymway on Mon 23 Mar 2009, 12:22; edited 1 time in total
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10847
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar 2009, 02:03    Post subject:  

brymway wrote:
Quote:
Anybody with a "low" number of post should be carefull. It seems ttuuxxx doesn't really care what you think.


Wow! Your arrogance is astounding. Your edgy response to my positive intentions are really surprising. I was making a suggestion to try and keep peace and you go and become elitist on me. I suppose that all those who have less than four digits shouldn't even bother casting their vote in the poll either? Or is it ok as long as they agree with the poll taker?

The egos of the "high numbers" here lately are really tiresome. It's giving this distro a bad name. You guys use to be helpful and humble, now, not so much.

I'm sorry for my negative attitude. I thought this was an open forum. I'll try and steer clear of you guys.


What are you going on about? did you not read that user at the time was ripping down in the forum and thats how i responded back to his rude comments, it has nothing to do with numbers it had to do with his general attitudes and thanks Trapster for posting a snip and not the whole case at hand, if you really want know what he said to peeve me off. here read this http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=40158&start=75

ttuuxxx

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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 1104
Location: Vienna Austria

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar 2009, 04:59    Post subject:  

ttuuxxx wrote:

Quote:
Ya I was always getting slapped for being cheeky as a kid, sometimes my mother would slap me because her hand was hurting because she was slapping me so much for being cheeky, lol Very Happy
ttuuxxx


In computer science that's what is known as recursion - but can lead to the computer freezing and crashing! - lol Very Happy

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bigbeck

Joined: 27 Feb 2009
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar 2009, 13:29    Post subject:  

My vote goes to bling if puppy's prime audience is the average newbie/enduser.

I'm thinking it only needs Seamonkey,Abiword,a few games,music software and about a hundred wallpapers and themes! Laughing It should also boot into Seamonkey. No questions to answer. Except maybe "how are you feeling today"? Laughing Desktop icons should include: Internet, music, games,write, wallpaper and quit. Sheesh, already it's too complicated! Rolling Eyes What about just Seamonkey? You can then get anything you need from the internet. That's it! Just Seamonkey and Quit icons.
The bling would automatically change each day. Wink

The internet is destroying the whole world! Shocked
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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4798
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar 2009, 18:27    Post subject: software pit approach  

brymway wrote:
The egos of the "high numbers" here lately are really tiresome. It's giving this distro a bad name. You guys use to be helpful and humble, now, not so much.

Are you referring to ttuuxxx? He usually edits out the heat from his posts (ie, after he cools off). If some heat still remains in the posts, then he's still hot. LOL

AFAIK, what Windows users cannot understand in Puppy is that you can use it without touching your hard disk. And speaking of touching your hard disk, the users further expect that they can toss tons of new programs into their system and hope that it still runs nicely.

Puppy's easy-install mode (frugal install or use CD only) limits this software-pit approach to applications because of the limited size of the save file. IMHO, ecomoney has built a large save file for his users following this usage pattern.

So the ordinary/Win refugee problem is not about bling but is about the big software-addition pit. And that translates to an easy to use package management and lots of additional software. What Barry is doing with Woof will help solve this need.

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mcewanw

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 2350
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar 2009, 19:50    Post subject: Is bling not bloat because just 222 kB?  

01micko wrote:

Hereś something I cannot comprehend. Pwidgets is, and absolutely is unashamed BLING. However it doesn´t make much clang. Is it bloat? 222KB?

This thread is about BLING not BLOAT!


The concern is rarely to do with storage size per se. People make a lot of generally unnecessary fuss about keeping the iso down below 100MB, for example, when the real issue is what it expands to, and more importantly, what resources it uses, on installation (RAM usage, number of processes started/CPU usage).

Certainly, time moves on and hardware becomes more sophisticated such that there comes a time when yesteryears hardware isn't worth supporting anymore. But that isn't my concern. Rather it is philisophical in terms of my opinion being that the "best" distribution is the one which gives the user choice (bling or no bling). If you bind the "unnecessary" bling into the system, you are forcing users to use it, when some would rather have as simple and fast a system as they can get. The best solution, I feel, is to keep bling as an add-on. What is the problem with that?!

Arguments about how resource hungry such add-ons are isn't the main point, in other words (though such concerns are important); the argument is about "choice". I sometimes use go-faster-stripes too, or system stats in pretty widgets; life and fun should go together. But bling, more generally, is not always fun, sometimes it is an unnecessary, unwanted pain in the neck(!); suchlike shouldn't be "forced" down peoples throats, but rather it should be offered as a possibly fun, useful, or pretty extra or option.

Bear in mind, however, that "bling" tends to grow in hunger in line with hardware/system developments (hence my earlier reference to the ills of consumerism).
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01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 7841
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PostPosted: Sun 22 Mar 2009, 20:10    Post subject: Re: Is bling not bloat because just 222 kB?  

mcewanw wrote:


The concern is rarely to do with storage size per se. People make a lot of generally unnecessary fuss about keeping the iso down below 100MB, for example, when the real issue is what it expands to, and more importantly, what resources it uses, on installation (RAM usage, number of processes started/CPU usage).


Now this is why I said Pwidgets doesn´t make much clang. I did ram tests before we optimised Pwidgets and they were quite favourable.

Quote:

Certainly, time moves on and hardware becomes more sophisticated such that there comes a time when yesteryears hardware isn't worth supporting anymore. But that isn't my concern. Rather it is philisophical in terms of my opinion being that the "best" distribution is the one which gives the user choice (bling or no bling). If you bind the "unnecessary" bling into the system, you are forcing users to use it, when some would rather have as simple and fast a system as they can get. The best solution, I feel, is to keep bling as an add-on. What is the problem with that?!


Well yes it is there by default but can be switched off in 4 clicks. I am confident it will run on most old clunkers. Personally I wouldn´t care if it was an add on, but that is not my decision and WhoDo has his reasons for including Pwidgets by default.

Quote:

Arguments about how resource hungry such add-ons are isn't the main point, in other words (though such concerns are important); the argument is about "choice". I sometimes use go-faster-stripes too, or system stats in pretty widgets, life and fun should go together. But bling, more generally, is not always fun, sometimes it is an unnecessary, unwanted pain in the neck(!); suchlike shouldn't be "forced" down peoples throats, but rather it should be offered as a possibly fun, useful, or pretty extra or option.

I can see your point but no one is forcing anything down any one´s throat! 4 clicks Wink (I asked zigbert to make it 2)

Quote:

Bear in mind, however, that "bling" tends to grow in hunger in line with hardware developments (hence my earlier reference to the ills of consumerism).


We have actually made Pwidgets smaller and more efficient since the first version. We are not going to add any more default widgets at this stage, but add-ons are available. Smile

Thanks for your comments and observations. All this helps us become better developers! Smile

Cheers

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