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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
Puppy 4.2 Bling Or No Bling ANNONYMOUS POLL
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droope


Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 814
Location: Uruguay, Mercedes

PostPosted: Thu 12 Mar 2009, 23:08    Post subject:  

01micko wrote:
bugman wrote:
i like it simple

[i've already said too much]


Not enough

I realize there has been a lot of effort put into Pwidgets, and if it's not added it probably will be used a lot less.

But it should NOT, in my opinion be activated at a start. Perhaps already isntalled, but not activated at a start.


I am not aware of the size of Pwidgets, what is it?
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10843
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Thu 12 Mar 2009, 23:33    Post subject:  

last count 503kb compressed pet, for all 4 packages (conky included), you need to also remember that one of the its also the new icon switcher that has all those 133 system links in root/my applications also, Thats why I was thinking it would be great to have all that packaged up in one pet located at root, with a puppy pin to the package from the desktop, you click the icon, it installs, the new and a lot slower fixmenus script, icon switcher, pwidgets, conky, libidn, libxcb, startup shortcut, and any other addon script they have. If it was installed and turned off by default, we would still have the slower fixmenus, all the system links, installed, in a package we would have a choice. But I guess thats what puplets are for Smile
ttuuxxx

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droope


Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 814
Location: Uruguay, Mercedes

PostPosted: Thu 12 Mar 2009, 23:38    Post subject:  

ttuuxxx wrote:
last count 503kb compressed pet, for all 4 packages (conky included), you need to also remember that one of the its also the new icon switcher that has all those 133 system links in root/my applications also, Thats why I was thinking it would be great to have all that packaged up in one pet located at root, with a puppy pin to the package from the desktop, you click the icon, it installs, the new and a lot slower fixmenus script, icon switcher, pwidgets, conky, libidn, libxcb, startup shortcut, and any other addon script they have. If it was installed and turned off by default, we would still have the slower fixmenus, all the system links, installed, in a package we would have a choice. But I guess thats what puplets are for Smile
ttuuxxx


Is it really that much slower?

This is not a very politically correct thread, to say it in a manner. From the way you describe it, only 1 thing comes clear. You don't want it to be included.

Is it really that much of a drag? I mean, 503kb...

Perhaps it's buggy. right?



Maybe it can be added as an installed program, but with no widgets on the desktop... That'd be great for both parties.
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10843
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Fri 13 Mar 2009, 00:05    Post subject:  

droope wrote:
ttuuxxx wrote:
last count 503kb compressed pet, for all 4 packages (conky included), you need to also remember that one of the its also the new icon switcher that has all those 133 system links in root/my applications also, Thats why I was thinking it would be great to have all that packaged up in one pet located at root, with a puppy pin to the package from the desktop, you click the icon, it installs, the new and a lot slower fixmenus script, icon switcher, pwidgets, conky, libidn, libxcb, startup shortcut, and any other addon script they have. If it was installed and turned off by default, we would still have the slower fixmenus, all the system links, installed, in a package we would have a choice. But I guess thats what puplets are for Smile
ttuuxxx


Is it really that much slower?

This is not a very politically correct thread, to say it in a manner. From the way you describe it, only 1 thing comes clear. You don't want it to be included.

Is it really that much of a drag? I mean, 503kb...

Perhaps it's buggy. right?



Maybe it can be added as an installed program, but with no widgets on the desktop... That'd be great for both parties.


When it comes to bling I like it, when it comes to the look of Pwidgets, I love it, when it comes to my system resources and having a slower pc, I don't like it, Pwidgets is based on Conky, thats all and good, but Conky with a transparent background was always not made to run that way and slowed down your desktop somewhat, but Pwidgets is layering this, plus if you open Pprocess you have 3 pwidgets running and one xclock, if you add another widget you'll have another process running, once i had over 8 at once when I added a few features.
ttuuxxx

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disciple

Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 6455
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

PostPosted: Fri 13 Mar 2009, 00:55    Post subject:  

Quote:
but Conky with a transparent background was always not made to run that way and slowed down your desktop somewhat

Is that true for Torsmo too? No wonder I had such a problem with it back in the day...

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gerry

Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 946
Location: England

PostPosted: Fri 13 Mar 2009, 03:29    Post subject:  

As I said somewhere else, TOP shows that the widgets use a total of 14 percent of my 256MB ram, and it shows in speed.

Gerry
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10843
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Fri 13 Mar 2009, 03:57    Post subject:  

gerry wrote:
As I said somewhere else, TOP shows that the widgets use a total of 14 percent of my 256MB ram, and it shows in speed.

Gerry


Yes thats hard to measure on my pc because I have 4gigs of ddr2, so it shows like 1%, but the average user will notice a change. I notice mostly with the dragging of the windows,compiling and fixmenus.
ttuuxxx

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droope


Joined: 31 Jul 2008
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Location: Uruguay, Mercedes

PostPosted: Fri 13 Mar 2009, 14:58    Post subject:  

Then it's a definitive no from me, i guess.
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bugman


Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2131
Location: buffalo commons

PostPosted: Fri 13 Mar 2009, 17:52    Post subject:  

i tried pwidgets once and it seriously killed my computer

[now happily removed]
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trapster


Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 2027
Location: Maine, USA

PostPosted: Fri 13 Mar 2009, 18:12    Post subject:  

Me likes my transparent Gkrellm.
I do use a slim down conky for a calendar, reminders and latest newsfeeds.

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jhecht


Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 142
Location: New York City (Manhattan)

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar 2009, 01:00    Post subject: less is WAY more...  

What makes Puppy so outstanding is Barry K's effort toward lean, clean, and fast software - not only his own work, but what is chosen to include with each iteration of Puppy.

When we deviate from that mindset, we lose sight of the original design concept, and risk devolving into bloatware...

Think the Bauhaus school of design - or - since this is Puppy, perhaps Bowowhaus. 'Form follows function' - that which functions most cleanly and simply is most beautiful...

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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar 2009, 11:31    Post subject:  

"Bling" vs Performance are not always mutially exclusive. Its possible to have something that doesnt look like Windows 3.1 but still runs very nearly as fast as the "3.1-looking" puppys.

Its not enough to have something that "just works", it has to be something that people are able to work easily, and that they actually want to work as well.

Pwidgets adds a lot of usability to puppy 4.1.2, at very little cost to performance. Im not sure about its long term inclusion in standard puppy linux, but I am glad that it was included in 4.2 just to show how attractive and useable puppy linux can be with a few extra tweaks.

I dont think the results of this poll should be taken seriously, as the Puppy Forum a lot more frequented by serious developers than end users. In my experience, a poll of everyone who had ever used puppy linux would show a very different result.

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jhecht


Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 142
Location: New York City (Manhattan)

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar 2009, 11:54    Post subject:  

ecomoney wrote:
"Bling" vs Performance are not always mutially exclusive. Its possible to have something that doesnt look like Windows 3.1 but still runs very nearly as fast as the "3.1-looking" puppys.

Its not enough to have something that "just works", it has to be something that people are able to work easily, and that they actually want to work as well.


You are imposing your own aesthetic judgments on others. I happen to >like< a minimalist look - why should more 'eye candy' be installed in a basic build, when it can easily be added as a .pet package? Or, if it is installed, it should be easily removable.

ecomoney wrote:
Pwidgets adds a lot of usability to puppy 4.1.2, at very little cost to performance. Im not sure about its long term inclusion in standard puppy linux, but I am glad that it was included in 4.2 just to show how attractive and useable puppy linux can be with a few extra tweaks.

I dont think the results of this poll should be taken seriously, as the Puppy Forum a lot more frequented by serious developers than end users. In my experience, a poll of everyone who had ever used puppy linux would show a very different result.


I have not used Pwidgets, so I'm not able to judge it. However, this poll is being answered by Puppy users who care enough to do so. To say it should be ignored is once again, imposing your values on other Puppy users. And how do you propose to contact 'everyone who had ever used Puppy Linux'? Further, what 'experience' do you have that makes you think the results of an expanded poll would be different? You totally have the right to your own opinion - but so does everyone else...

In >my< experience, the most ardent Puppy users, are fluent computerists who want to get away from bloated OSs that include too much decoration. There is no reason to not offer whatever >add-ons< you like, to change appearance - but don't include them in the basic build.

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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar 2009, 13:45    Post subject:  

Quote:
Further, what 'experience' do you have that makes you think the results of an expanded poll would be different?


My experience is in using puppy linux, in head to head competition with windows computer engineers, full time as my primary "job" in my local community over the past five years, looking after the needs of individuals, family homes, small business, schools and charities. I ran a puppy Linux cybercafe for three years, and support around 150 p.c.'s in my local area.

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=12714
http://www.deoss.org/positive/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=42&Itemid=43
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?search_id=1012114686&t=23459

I have an academic and practical background in Computer Programming and Business Computing using Windows for twelve years before that.

Quote:
In >my< experience, the most ardent Puppy users, are fluent computerists


This may well be true, but only because Puppy Linux is currently at an underdeveloped state, and does not yet entirely fulfil the purpose for which it was created. Its mission statement (as stated by Barry Kauler, its origionator) says in its entirety

Quote:
Puppy Linux Mission Statement:

* Puppy will easily install to USB, Zip or hard drive media
* Booting from CD, Puppy will load totally into RAM so that the CD drive is then free for other purposes
* Puppy will be extremely friendly for Linux newbies
* Puppy will boot up and run extraordinarily fast
* Puppy will have all the applications needed for daily use
* Puppy will just work, no hassles
* Puppy will breathe new life into old PCs


Only a tiny fraction of the people I have introduced to puppy linux have ever posted on this board. Generally speaking end users just dont, whatever operating system they use. If it goes wrong, or doesnt do everything they want it to, they just call an engineer. They dont answer polls on message boards.

From a technical perspective, I understand part of puppy linux's speed and "special powers" are derived from its small size. IMHO the fact that is has until now looked like (and I quote from the general public who I meet every day) an obsolete Windows OS, full of strange codes, with common tasks not being automated, has severely held back its uptake as a mainstream operating system. Its recent rise up the rankings at distrowatch are because its automated simple tasks like accessing cd's and pendrives, improved its appearance (slightly), gives warnings about full disks and because it no longer defaults to a black screen full of code if it is improperly shut down. These have required hardly any increase in size to achieve.

Like I say, I think it was a wise choice from whodo to include some extra "bling" in this release, just to show what is possible from any future puppy linux. It is much more usable to, and desired by, the average computer user (who it is aimed at) because of these extra small additions. I am sure his own personal experience in supporting puppy linux based p.c.'s in charities to average end users made him aware of the need for this.

I hope future editions of puppy will spare a few well chosen extra bytes (because thats all it would take) to make it look like a modern operating system, and a lot more suitable to the vast majority of people out their that dont have access to a computer, and are not fluent computerists.

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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10843
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar 2009, 14:11    Post subject:  

ecomoney wrote:


I dont think the results of this poll should be taken seriously, as the Puppy Forum a lot more frequented by serious developers than end users. I


Well then it should be taken even more serious due to the fact that people who are voting actually have an idea how things work, and If its developers voting against Pwidgets then that alone is very important, due to the fact that they know that unnecessary programs that take a lot of system resources by default are bad for the user and bad for puppy's reputation as a OS that just works on older computers. I think as long as Pwidgets is on by default, Puppy should raise its min resources, to 256mb of ram min., forget 128mb or less. Also I take this poll serious because of it, I'm trying to get WhoDo to make 1 extra final unofficial version without Pwidgets and this is the proof I have. Once pwidgets is gone, WhoDo could replace Claws mail with the full Seamonkey suite and still be right around the 100MB area. That should make a lot of people happy. So you can take this Poll VERY serious because the version it will produce will probably end it on your systems that you provide people.
ttuuxxx

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