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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Misc
Is Puppy Green?
Moderators: Flash, JohnMurga
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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Sat 14 Mar 2009, 20:06    Post subject:  

aarf wrote:
sustainability!
there is enough geothermal energy in this planet to last so far into the future that earthlings will have long left for "greener" pastures in another galaxy before it is exhausted, even if it is used in the most inefficient manner available..



Gosh!

And there was me thinking that a lot of this 'global warming' malarky was because it has taken thousands of years of accumulated sunshine to produce the 'fossil fuels' we burn in no time, thus releasing thousands of solar hours worth of heat to;
keep warm
make electricity
run furnaces
cook food
drive vehicles
create work
extend daylight
get entertained
play with technology i.e. PCs/phones/gameconsoles/TVs/ipods
etc

and now we have the geothermal energy to release, too

so no probs, then, Lobster - aarf's got it sussed

[tongue firmly in cheek] Wink

Aitch Smile
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VK6FUN

Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 127
Location: North Baandee, Western Australia

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar 2009, 01:37    Post subject:  

If you really want to see for yourself just how greedy the penguin is, place two identical laptops side-by-side, running on batteries.

One running linux, one running the operating system you hate so much.

Be sure they are both doing the same thing. For many of you this will be impossible because your linux system will be incapable of driving some of your hardware.

Notice which one dies first, and by how long.

Report your results here, if you are not too embarrassed.

When you must conserve every last joule linux is a joke.

cheers

73deVK6FUN
Pete
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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 6270
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar 2009, 02:07    Post subject:  

FYI, Linux itself does support slowing down the processor when it's idling. Unfortunately, last I checked Puppy doesn't have that enabled by default. But it does work in Puppy. I tested it last summer. I don't remember quite what I did, but it involved echoing some stuff into /proc. There are instructions on the forum. You should track them down and try comparing it then.

(Note: I'm not talking about simple throttling - that is easy, but not as slick. With throttleing, you manually tell the kernel how fast to run the processor by echoing a number to /proc/acpi/processor/CPU0/throttling. What I'm talking about above will automatically slow down when idling, and attempt to quickly speed back up when being used.


And to preempt any smart-asciis in the audience, yeah, I know. Fat lot of good it does when you have too dig up obscure commands to enable it. Somebody with nothing better to do should write up (or track down) a gui for it.

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Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. --Muad'Dib

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VK6FUN

Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 127
Location: North Baandee, Western Australia

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar 2009, 02:32    Post subject:  

Note that I have read this

http://johnmeister.com/tmcp.pdf

but my results are VERY different.

I suspect that default MS Windows install was able to drive more hardware like wifi and bluetooth.

apples with apples problem.

or is it just straight-out bs?

73deVK6FUN
Pete
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panzerpuppy

Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 632

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar 2009, 02:55    Post subject: Re: Is Puppy Green?
Subject description: save the planet?
 

ttuuxxx wrote:
I would keep the small version of seamonkey I made, since its smaller than firefox, or opera.


I'd add Opera to the Green Puppy and set it as a default browser.
Opera uses a lot less CPU (and RAM) than SeaMonkey when scrolling and displaying pages.

Web pages with Flash videos are another problem.The videos should be downloaded and played back with MPlayer/VLC/GXine.

I'd enable Xorg 2D/3D/OpenGL acceleration out of the box.2D video acceleration saves a lot of energy.
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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 6270
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar 2009, 02:57    Post subject:  

Quote:
I suspect that default MS Windows install was able to drive more hardware like wifi and bluetooth.
No excuse. If it is capable of running them fine. But it should not actually be running them. If they are enabled and broadcasting when unneeded, then Windows is wasting power.
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VK6FUN

Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 127
Location: North Baandee, Western Australia

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar 2009, 03:17    Post subject:  

a typical smart-arse answer and a cop-out.

You are saying that an operating system's inability to operate hardware is a feature.

cheers
73deVK6FUN
Pete
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panzerpuppy

Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 632

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar 2009, 03:25    Post subject:  

Pizzasgood wrote:
Just look at computers. Every time the processing speed increases, software adds enough bloat to compensate.

Increase the energy available, and we will find a use for it.


Game developers will start to use inefficient languages (i.e. BASIC) to program their latest virtual-reality first person %^$#@ simulators. Smile
CPU power will never be enough.

Take GTA IV as an example - even your shiny new high-end quad core with a monster videocard can't handle the shoddily programmed GTA IV.
But wait - the game flies on a console that's 20 times less powerful than your monster PC.
Now that's what I call progress Very Happy

Last edited by panzerpuppy on Sun 15 Mar 2009, 04:25; edited 7 times in total
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panzerpuppy

Joined: 02 Oct 2007
Posts: 632

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar 2009, 03:55    Post subject:  

Pizzasgood wrote:
FYI, Linux itself does support slowing down the processor when it's idling. Unfortunately, last I checked Puppy doesn't have that enabled by default. But it does work in Puppy. I tested it last summer. I don't remember quite what I did, but it involved echoing some stuff into /proc. There are instructions on the forum. You should track them down and try comparing it then.

(Note: I'm not talking about simple throttling - that is easy, but not as slick. With throttleing, you manually tell the kernel how fast to run the processor by echoing a number to /proc/acpi/processor/CPU0/throttling. What I'm talking about above will automatically slow down when idling, and attempt to quickly speed back up when being used.


And to preempt any smart-asciis in the audience, yeah, I know. Fat lot of good it does when you have too dig up obscure commands to enable it. Somebody with nothing better to do should write up (or track down) a gui for it.


It would be great to enable this by default in a future version of Puppy.
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VK6FUN

Joined: 18 Oct 2008
Posts: 127
Location: North Baandee, Western Australia

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar 2009, 04:09    Post subject:  

maybe developers could have a look here

http://www.lesswatts.org/index.php

for some good tips.

powertop is an eye-opener on intel processors.


cheers
73deVK6FUN
Pete
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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar 2009, 11:24    Post subject:  

Hmm

& I suspect what PG was referring to was probably an implementation of the OnDemand Governor feature in the kernel

http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/lenb/acpi/doc/OLS2006-ondemand-paper.pdf

see sample attached

It seems to me that the whole ethos of linux, [or any *nix] only calling modules as needed must make it more efficient?
[Don't know how a Mac OSX or SunOS (Solaris?) system might compare?]

Interesting topic, no doubt there'll be more changes....

Maybe this will assist? - A benchmarking/testing suite used for comparisons

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=28706

Aitch Smile
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DMcCunney

Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 894

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar 2009, 12:02    Post subject:  

Aitch wrote:
It seems to me that the whole ethos of linux, [or any *nix] only calling modules as needed must make it more efficient?
[Don't know how a Mac OSX or SunOS (Solaris?) system might compare?]

Analogous, since they share a similar design philosophy. Mac OS/X is a BSD variant. So is the original SunOS (no surprise, since Sun co-founder Bill Joy was the chief architect of BSD when he was a grad student at UC Berkeley.) Solaris is the result of an AT&T sponsored effort to create an OS that merged the System V and BSD flavors.

Lots of things are started on bootup by *nix boxes as daemons, just like lots of services are run on Windows.

On laptops, power efficiency is more than just CPU usage. The docs for my Fujitsu Lifebook, for example, recommend things like reducing screen brightness to the lowest comfortable usage level (since screen display is a major power use), and disconnecting things like PCM-CIA cards when not in use because they are powered by the system. (I have a USB 2.0 PCM-CIA card in the Lifebook.)

Linux may be able to do better on default power saving features than it does, but I doubt it can auto-adjust screen brightness to comfortable levels or get users to disconnect power using hardware when they aren't using it... Razz
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Dennis
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rjbrewer


Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 4422
Location: merriam, kansas

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar 2009, 18:55    Post subject:  

My laptop draws 18 watts at desktop and 34 watts when
watching a streaming video.

Decreasing screen brightness from max to minimum saves
2.34 watts of power. If I have the laptop running 24/7 365
days a year, that will save me $2.05 a year.

Having pcmcia cards plugged in seems to be negligible,
unless devices are attached and running.

_________________

Inspiron 700m, Pent.M 1.6Ghz, 1Gb ram.
Msi Wind U100, N270 1.6>2.0Ghz, 1.5Gb ram.
Eeepc 8g 701, 900Mhz, 1Gb ram.
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DMcCunney

Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 894

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar 2009, 19:29    Post subject:  

rjbrewer wrote:
My laptop draws 18 watts at desktop and 34 watts when
watching a streaming video.

Decreasing screen brightness from max to minimum saves
2.34 watts of power. If I have the laptop running 24/7 365
days a year, that will save me $2.05 a year.

The point of Fujitsu's commentary for my machine wasn't cost savings when plugged into an outlet - it was battery life savings when not plugged in.

Obvious, the cost saving method is "Don't watch streaming video..." Razz
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Dennis
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rjbrewer


Joined: 22 Jan 2008
Posts: 4422
Location: merriam, kansas

PostPosted: Sun 15 Mar 2009, 20:14    Post subject:  

My laptop drops from 800mhz to 650 mhz and minimum
screen brightness when running from battery.

_________________

Inspiron 700m, Pent.M 1.6Ghz, 1Gb ram.
Msi Wind U100, N270 1.6>2.0Ghz, 1.5Gb ram.
Eeepc 8g 701, 900Mhz, 1Gb ram.
Full installs

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