Puppy 4.2 - Trim the bloat

[zigbert]

These packages uses the old gtkdialog2 (43kb)

/usr/sbin/connectwizard
/usr/sbin/dotpup
/usr/sbin/input-wizard
/usr/sbin/petget
/usr/sbin/pmount
/usr/sbin/pupget
/usr/sbin/puppyinstaller
/usr/sbin/pupscan
/usr/sbin/wakepup2
/usr/sbin/xorgwizard
/usr/sbin/xserverwizard

[lilleguard-liste]

I can see there are many opinions considering making Puppy Linux a stripped down "as small as can be system" (SMALL), or a stripped down 99% functional "ready to use system" (FUNCTIONAL).

I've been using Puppy Linux and reading Barrys blog and the forum now and then for about a year. Today (considering what I have learned the past year) I would prefer a SMALL unfinished system and add the .pets that fill my needs. But, I would never have started to use Puppy Linux if it hadn't been for the FUNCTIONAL Puppy 3.0 which I downloaded and booted in less than 50 seconds and knew how to use without having to read anything else than Barrys short welcome message.

IMHO i think the Puppy community (may I say "we"?) should develop both. If we make a SMALL puppy system and maintain the .sfs/.pet-packages, I assume it would be a <5min job to add the usual packages and remaster a FUNCTIONAL system. Of course to promote Puppy, we could always promote the FUNCTIONAL remaster and let the SMALL puppy hide in the background. Anyone who foresees any problems with such a solution?

Suggestion on how to TRIM puppy furthermore: except than basic html, I do not know anything about building computer programmes or operative systems, so forgive me if this is a stupid suggestion. Is it possible to get rid of nearly all preinstalled drivers in puppy (i dont know if they occupy a lot of space, but I know that puppy has a lot of them considering the great compatibility) so that the SMALL puppy system only boots into a text based OS and automatically runs a "detection programme" which analyzes your computer and builds a list of drivers needed for you to download and install to get a desktop environment...? These drivers could be easily accesible to download and install (with simple commands written in a step-by-step welcome message). In this way unnecessary drivers could be removed from the iso-file (wifi, sound, graphic card...).

Does anyone know approx how much free space we could achieve by doing this?

[J-Bob]

I can see there are many opinions considering making Puppy Linux a stripped down "as small as can be system" (SMALL), or a stripped down 99% functional "ready to use system" (FUNCTIONAL).

I've been using Puppy Linux and reading Barrys blog and the forum now and then for about a year. Today (considering what I have learned the past year) I would prefer a SMALL unfinished system and add the .pets that fill my needs. But, I would never have started to use Puppy Linux if it hadn't been for the FUNCTIONAL Puppy 3.0 which I downloaded and booted in less than 50 seconds and knew how to use without having to read anything else than Barrys short welcome message.

IMHO i think the Puppy community (may I say "we"?) should develop both. If we make a SMALL puppy system and maintain the .sfs/.pet-packages, I assume it would be a <5min job to add the usual packages and remaster a FUNCTIONAL system. Of course to promote Puppy, we could always promote the FUNCTIONAL remaster and let the SMALL puppy hide in the background. Anyone who foresees any problems with such a solution?

Suggestion on how to TRIM puppy furthermore: except than basic html, I do not know anything about building computer programmes or operative systems, so forgive me if this is a stupid suggestion. Is it possible to get rid of nearly all preinstalled drivers in puppy (i dont know if they occupy a lot of space, but I know that puppy has a lot of them considering the great compatibility) so that the SMALL puppy system only boots into a text based OS and automatically runs a "detection programme" which analyzes your computer and builds a list of drivers needed for you to download and install to get a desktop environment...? These drivers could be easily accesible to download and install (with simple commands written in a step-by-step welcome message). In this way unnecessary drivers could be removed from the iso-file (wifi, sound, graphic card...).

Does anyone know approx how much free space we could achieve by doing this?

well, there is puppy 4.1.2 barebones. you could get that and get addon sfs files. and if you want to make addons it's not too difficult.

just unpack your packages into a folder which would look like the "/" directory, when you installed these packages, but without everything else, just the packages filesystem.

then there is a script which you use to turn the folder into a sfs. i tried looking for it but cannot find it. but i'll get back to you if i figure out what command it is that needs to be used.

- J-Bob

[pa_mcclamrock]

I'm now using SkipStone for web browsing and Sylpheed for e-mail, both pretty lean and un-bloated; I wouldn't miss the SeaMonkey components if they were "optional" rather than "required." (I also wouldn't miss AbiWord, I find that TextMaker 2002 works better, but I'm not sure a push to boot AbiWord would have any chance of success.)

A few other things I don't think need to be part of the basic Puppy distro:

fotoxx, GQView (gpicview is all you need for a really basic image viewer)

notecase (almost 900 KB, and for what? Usage is not obvious to the ordinary user!)

Geany (over 1.2 MB is surely a lot more than you need for a basic, user-friendly text editor)

Grafburn (can it do anything that Pburn can't?)

Xsane (not needed by many users who either don't do scanning or, like me, use another program such as VueScan)

Osmo (version 0.2.0 is pretty limited in functionality, and versions after 0.2.0 won't run on Puppy because Puppy doesn't have dbus, which would make it quite noticeably more bloated and slower, according to what I've read). There's got to be a better way to keep track of appointments, things to do, and contacts.

ExpenseTracker (too obscure, no documentation)

Xcalc, Ycalc, xfontsel, xclipboard (inferior, outdated)

PPLOG (all that happens when I try to run it is I get a message saying I need the Hiawatha web server, whatever that is, to be running, and I figure why bother?)

But please do not get rid of the Stardust GTK theme--it looks great, and it can't add that much bloat!

David McClamrock

[aragon]

hi david,

some ideas/notes about your list:

- skipstone: i think an average user expects a 'full'-featured browser like seamonkey/firefox/opera

- sylpheed: i think you're right, but if we stay with seamonkey (for the moment), we could use it's component. i don't use a local mail-client any more (for some years now), so i have no personal experience.

- abiword: i think it's fixed (personal feeling)
- fotoxx: same opinion es you(see former entries in this post)
- gqview: it's not in 4.12?
- notecase: same opinion as you
- Geany: You're right it's big (personally i would miss it)
- Grafburn: it's not in 4.12?
- Xsane: i don't need it but maybe it's essential for a general-purpose-distro
- osmo: i don't need it but maybe it's essential for a general-purpose-distro
- ExpenseTracker: same opinion as you
- Xcalc, Ycalc, xfontsel, xclipboard: same opinion as you
- PPLOG: same opinion as you
- Stardust GTK theme: Maybe we will all have to pay a price for a lean system (it's 9.9 kb)


Some Additions:
- We have 2 Batch-Renamer, do we need 2?
- We have 2 Ripper, do we need 2?
- Do we need gwhere?
- We have 2 GUI and 2 Console Texteditors. That might be too much.
- CHMsee: Do we have any chm-File in standard-puppy?
- MtrTraceroute: I like it, but do we need it?
- Do we need a ftp-server or a webserver in a general-purpose-distro?

Once again, i don't want a barebones-system. But there are some actual posts about user-friendlyness, and unclutter the system is a part of this (my opinion!).

An example:
A new user wants to rip an audio-cd. which ripper should he use and why? he does not know. maybe one of us knows. maybe. the user wants to rip a cd, thats it. he does not want to make a decision. a project leader/we/an expert group/a dictator has to decide which is the best ripper for puppy.

cheers
aragon

[WhoDo]

A few other things I don't think need to be part of the basic Puppy distro:

fotoxx, GQView (gpicview is all you need for a really basic image viewer)

Agreed. Already done for 4.2

notecase (almost 900 KB, and for what? Usage is not obvious to the ordinary user!)

Agreed. Already out of 4.2

Geany (over 1.2 MB is surely a lot more than you need for a basic, user-friendly text editor)

Disagree. Geany is the best all-purpose editor for script programmers and basic text documents alike.

Grafburn (can it do anything that Pburn can't?)

Agreed. Already out.

Xsane (not needed by many users who either don't do scanning or, like me, use another program such as VueScan)

Perhaps, but should be in as basic support in an all-around package.

Osmo (version 0.2.0 is pretty limited in functionality, and versions after 0.2.0 won't run on Puppy because Puppy doesn't have dbus, which would make it quite noticeably more bloated and slower, according to what I've read). There's got to be a better way to keep track of appointments, things to do, and contacts.

If you find the "better way", let me know.

ExpenseTracker (too obscure, no documentation)

Agreed. Already removed in 4.2

Xcalc, Ycalc, xfontsel, xclipboard (inferior, outdated)

Agreed, except for xfontsel. Xcalc and Ycalc already out. Looking at Parcellite in lieu of Glipper. Jury still out.

PPLOG (all that happens when I try to run it is I get a message saying I need the Hiawatha web server, whatever that is, to be running, and I figure why bother?)

Yes, not for the average user BUT it does give Puppy that "Wow" factor with those using the bigger distros. Undecided at this stage but PPLOG and Hiawatha out would save a bit.

But please do not get rid of the Stardust GTK theme--it looks great, and it can't add that much bloat!

Nope. Stardust is in. At the moment my pre-alphas are building at 96Mb with all the Pwidgets/conky/eye candy stuff included. We can do better, but I haven't finished yet!

[pa_mcclamrock]

Osmo (version 0.2.0 is pretty limited in functionality, and versions after 0.2.0 won't run on Puppy because Puppy doesn't have dbus, which would make it quite noticeably more bloated and slower, according to what I've read). There's got to be a better way to keep track of appointments, things to do, and contacts.

If you find the "better way", let me know.

I'm working on it. It's called "WISH HoneyDo." I've already written programs that I use instead of Geany (WISH Supernotepad), HomeBank (WISH Checkbook), ROX-Filer (WISH File Rusher), and Pburn, except for DVDs (WISH CD-Writer). Presumably they won't go into the basic Puppy distro, though, because they require Tcl and Tk (which almost every other Linux distribution has included since time immemorial, so to speak), and a mere 4 MB for these interpreters is thought to be too much for Puppy's delicate under-100-MB constitution.

PPLOG (all that happens when I try to run it is I get a message saying I need the Hiawatha web server, whatever that is, to be running, and I figure why bother?)

Yes, not for the average user BUT it does give Puppy that "Wow" factor with those using the bigger distros. Undecided at this stage but PPLOG and Hiawatha out would save a bit.

They could still get the "Wow" factor after installing the packages, and any big-distro users are sure to look into what add-on packages are available for Puppy.

David McClamrock

[aragon]

Yes, not for the average user BUT it does give Puppy that "Wow" factor with those using the bigger distros. Undecided at this stage but PPLOG and Hiawatha out would save a bit.

WhoDo, i hope that we will newer come to a situation where PPLOG is a Wow-faktor for puppy (my opinion)

cheers
aragon

[tlchost]

An example:
A new user wants to rip an audio-cd. which ripper should he use and why? he does not know. maybe one of us knows. maybe. the user wants to rip a cd, thats it. he does not want to make a decision. a project leader/we/an expert group/a dictator has to decide which is the best ripper for puppy.

Perhaps one approach would be to have a minimal functional version....
One that has enough stuff for the new user to get up and running with something like:
Web Browser
Email Client
Network, including wireless
Word Processing
Printer support
Audio/Video player
CD/DVD burner
Remastering option

Now the "tricky part"....addins for dummys. Some folks, myself included, don't want, don't have the time, don't have the skills to run around checking dependencies....so for we lazy, challenged,unskilled folks, one needs to have a really simple installer (procedure).

It also follows that there needs to be a simple way to uninstall any of the above.

I believe that if a non-geek, non-tekkie version of Puppy could be created, a large number of new users would be happy users.

I work with senior citizens(I are one)...and I have yet to find one who wants to be an OS freak, needs the latest bleeding edge technology and understands/cares about the Linux versus other systems debate. They simply want a way to use a computer to do things that is simple and will not require them to purchase expensive systems.

Thom

[WhoDo]

Perhaps one approach would be to have a minimal functional version....
One that has enough stuff for the new user to get up and running with something like:
Web Browser
Email Client
Network, including wireless
Word Processing
Printer support
Audio/Video player
CD/DVD burner
Remastering option

Now the "tricky part"....addins for dummys. Some folks, myself included, don't want, don't have the time, don't have the skills to run around checking dependencies....so for we lazy, challenged,unskilled folks, one needs to have a really simple installer (procedure).

It also follows that there needs to be a simple way to uninstall any of the above.

I agree with your approach and requirements. That is why ttuuxxx's modified package manager is in 4.2 - it has automatic dependency checking, too.

To your list I would add:
Spreadsheet - we don't all need them, but many do
Organiser - some of us are both old AND still working
Graphics program - hey, even oldies like us have hobbies
Camera download - for grabbing piccies of the grandkids
File finder - where did I put those piccies again?
Text editor/viewer - gotta read those instructions from time to time

We'll get there; maybe sooner than anyone thinks, too!

[Lobster]

May have suggested this before . . .
A viable alternative to Composer?
We could have an off-line html page with the javascript . . .
http://www.openwebware.com/download.shtml

[ttuuxxx]

May have suggested this before . . .
A viable alternative to Composer?
We could have an off-line html page with the javascript . . .
http://www.openwebware.com/download.shtml

Hi lobster I checked out that program, you need to add code to a page before you can even run it, every page you need to add the code to,

The seamonkey package I built for 4.2 does have composer in it already, if people want a better choice then they can use kompozer, its the only currently developed wysiwyg from mozilla, gone are NVU & composer, composer is being replaced with kompozer in the near future in the seamonkey suite, which would be nice but I hope it doesn't over inflate the size.

I've been trying to build a xinha plugin for seamonkey today, I'll keep ya informed how it tuns out
ttuuxxx

[Lobster]

xinha looks better - maybe smaller and better than composer too . . .
look forward to hearing how you get on
http://xinha.raimundmeyer.de/x_examples ... ample.html

[ttuuxxx]

xinha looks better - maybe smaller and better than composer too . . .
look forward to hearing how you get on
http://xinha.raimundmeyer.de/x_examples ... ample.html

Yes I've used xinha many times in the past couple of years and for the size of it, its outstanding sure it isn't kompozer but its 1/10 the size. If you have firefox or firepup handy just give it a shot. Meanwhile I'll see about adapting it. Also fireftp is my other choice for a ftp browser plugin that works really well on firefox, but I do like the way I set up gftp bookmarks with puppy direct link to ibiblio for downloads.
ttuuxxx

[01micko]

Wallpapers puppy users.

Plenty to be trimmed there.

Take a look in the 'Eycandy|Puppy Wallpapers' thread...

[ttuuxxx]

I took the taskbar image from my Citrus theme and made it square then stretched it Just squint your eyes first , LOL
ttuuxxx

[mcewanw]

xinha looks better - maybe smaller and better than composer too . . .
look forward to hearing how you get on :D
http://xinha.raimundmeyer.de/x_examples ... ample.html

Yes I've used xinha many times in the past couple of years and for the size of it, its outstanding sure it isn't kompozer but its 1/10 the size. If you have firefox or firepup handy just give it a shot.

But it is only "really" designed for editing text box fields in web pages as I describe in the second post of this thread here http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=41580

["wiak" is actually a team of four programmers at wiak.org; so that identity is generally used in threads concerned with programming work in wiak to try and keep the general and the technical separated].

But... Codetch, which is mainly what I rave about in the above thread is surely what you are after - but well worth having the two Firefox extensions Xinha and "It's All Text" too (desc in same thread). Who needs ugly Seamonkey just for Composer when you can have the beautiful Firefox with Codetch etc (pity it doesn't work with slim and speedy Opera; the notebook in Opera is pretty similar in function to the excellent, but removed from Puppy, Notecase actually).

"Most users use Kompozer or NVU". Sorry, i think that's not correct. I think, most users did not create homepages very often.

I think that is very true. Most users think that involves coding and don't realise how handy it is to simply write notes in html using a WYSIWYG editor and using such a fast loading local html page as the startup homepage for their browser. With the Codetch Firefox extension, you just need to right click on a displayed page and it becomes instantly editable in another tab of your browser. Or start with a blank page and its just like using a simple wordprocessor. Html isn't just useful for creating big websites... Indeed, I tend to use an old Palm Pilot (well an old Palm m125) as an alarm when I'm baking scones or cooking generally; I also carry a copy of my default browser home page around on that, because I keep all my tech notes on that, and can edit it in any text editor or view it as WYSIWYG using Plucker. Wiki syntax is overated; html is a universal standard and easily translated into other formats (such as Latex, rtf, Plucker, or stripped to bare text). Hence my poorly designed local html homepage template: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=41466

Forget online (slow and out of the user's control) editors and AJAX etc (do you really want to rely on the likes of Google for your own notes?); Codetch is less than 400 kB in size and much nicer to use than Seamonkey's Composer.

It's time Puppy official adopted pretty Firefox and got rid of ugly old Seamonkey (which can never keep up with FF). I'm sure the Seamonkey default puts many potential users off (though I understand it having been chosen - Composer and inbuilt Mail/News - but nowadays we have better, smaller, and more efficient options - in terms of look and feel, Seamonkey also has very poor configurability compared to FF or Opera).

Opera... well, it's great, but it has its problems (despite its speed and general lack of bloat) and the Mozilla Gecko engine is a much used component more generally. Try Codetch! You may fall in love with it.

I'm forever trying to trim the bloat; hence my introducing pjsip to the Puppy community http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 406#206406, (for which I was given no credit -admittedly I was unable to put any time into what followed being faced as I was with a Hague convention family situation much like ecomoney once described... I'm still stuck in that mess almost one year later...), as well producing the Gizmo-mini pet: http://www.puppylinux.ca/tpp/foksyfeyer ... izmo-mini/

I feel like saying lol to emulate ttuuxxx madness (don't know why...)

I must say that I agree with ttuuxxx about gtkdialog (with bash); I've always hated it. I much prefer C programming and a better GUI toolkit that doesn't leave processes running around out of control. gtkdialog is fine for only the simplest of apps (such as Pwget) but anything beyond that and it isn't quite so nice to program as it first seems... very messy.

Vala/Genie (C under the hood) indeed looks like a good way to go for low-bloat application/Puppy-utilities.

[Pelo]

"- 174 kb:
Replace fotoxx-5.0.1 (213 kb) with gpicview-0.1.10 (39kb) or ghunter (39kb) which also has slideshow support. Fotoxx is something in between a image editor and image viewer. Since we have Mtpaint, I don't see any need of more image editors. What we need is fixing the print function in mtpaint."
The future will deny Zigbert. 2016 fotoxx is still alive, ghunter has been forgotten for a long time.
Try a return of ghunter (II)... huum a mi me gusta mucho fotoxx
Nous les français aimons beaucoup fotoxx.

[darry1966]

Why not xpaint??

[Pelo]

Xpaint : i tested it, nothing bad, but i was not enthusiast. but it could be reconsidered. Are screen-shots available with it ? don't remember.
Ghunter is a comic viewer, it's the first time i enconter it in a Puppy (puplite). perhaps it's a jewel...
People should bring them in the sun, from time to time, only to make the menu changed .