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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
AbiWord 2.6.4 - Upgrade wanted
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Sun 03 May 2009, 08:10    Post subject:  

Ttuxxx, your thinking shows your definetely a developer, and very experienced with technical matters. Its classic of the way developers think, and exactly why they should take on suggestions from those with real world experience. If puppy is to be successful, then it needs the Users views to be taken into account too, or it just becomes an excercise in programming for programmers.

My point on this thread is that an Abiword upgrade was unneccesary, as there was very little demand for it. Changing packages that have been tested and already "work as well as they can" brings a risk of introducing more serious bugs...as what happened. Users dont want features they want benefits....the benefit here is "can open almost all M$ word Documents" rather than "Can only open a few M$ Word documents, without workaround".

If a new package is introduced, it should be demonstrated there is a clear demand for the extra features it will bring (in this case .docx support), and that the package introduced has been thoroughly tested (as a .pet from .petget for example). Not straight from source code to puppy.

Off topic, one question....is Seamonkey .01 of a version behind the current release more secure or less secure than Internet Explorer on Windows? If it is more secure (which it is) then it should say it is. Not warn about a theoretical security risk, download an update which doesnt install...that just makes Puppy look incomplete, as well as insecure, and gives people more of an excuse to return to teletubby land. Its about perception.

Previous Seamonkeys were configured in this way (without automatic updates), and changing that has not been a topic of discussion on this board, rather your own personal preference.

You shouldnt take this as complaints Ttuxxx...only as information on how to make a Puppy that more people want and is useful to. Thats everyones goal right?

P.S. Yes the theme in Seamonkey is an improvement.

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disciple

Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 6458
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

PostPosted: Sun 03 May 2009, 16:31    Post subject:  

BTW there is always demand for updated Abiword packages - you must be kidding if you say otherwise. But of course you are right - we should only update if it means things work better on average Smile
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10843
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Mon 04 May 2009, 00:49    Post subject:  

disciple wrote:
BTW there is always demand for updated Abiword packages - you must be kidding if you say otherwise. But of course you are right - we should only update if it means things work better on average Smile

Really if you have a well working abiword, I would keep that and just updated which ever plugins you don't have like docx, you can take that from the package I posted above and drop it in a earlier Abiword compiled on 4 series and it will work. I wouldn't updated all the plugins, because some might give you issues, but I know that the docx plugin works.
ttuuxxx

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mcewanw

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Posts: 2349
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Mon 04 May 2009, 04:30    Post subject: those who can; fix it (Abiword)  

ecomoney wrote:
Ttuxxx, your thinking shows your definetely a developer, and very experienced with technical matters. Its classic of the way developers think, and exactly why they should take on suggestions from those with real world experience. If puppy is to be successful, then it needs the Users views to be taken into account too, or it just becomes an excercise in programming for programmers.


I'm sorry, ecomoney, but, much though I've previously stated how important your kind of endeavour is, the kind of discourse embedded in your above statements is frankly intolerable in this day and age. Yours is clearly an attempt to propagate the message that developers are somehow inherently unable to think beyond the technical, whereas the "manager" (as you appear to imagine yourself) is some other distinct kind of being who has the foresight to see the so-called "bigger picture". Such discourse is at best utter rubbish and at worst a diabolical and deceptive strategy infused with egotistical arrogance.

Admittedly, there are others on this forum (some of whom who have successfully achieved positions of power and status) who like to spout similar forms of discourse, and who, not unsurprisingly, have even cross swords with yourself, the self-aspiring Pretender perhaps to the throne one might say... but that is no excuse for your own sentiments and public behaviour.

What you say in the above quoted paragraph is rather like saying that women cannot understand technical matters or drive cars (properly); many possibly (and perhaps sensibly) don't want to and thus never do, but that is a different matter.

You, and those like you, are clearly trying to create the myth, in the minds of the listener, that only some "sorts of people" are privileged to such forms of knowledge and experience; a discourse and general attitude which is typical of those who want to "manage" for the sake of being in positions of "power". The myth has to be created, because who and what do you "manage" if you don't have anyone willing to obey and who is actually capable of doing the creative work itself.

The proposed myth is complete self-protecting nonsense of course. All humans are perfectly capable of doing most things if they put in the effort and put their minds to it. By far the best so-called "managers or senior administrators" that I have come across have previously themselves been at the top-of-the-tree in the relevant technical area they ended up overseeing, and most of these had remained every bit as capable technically as they had been previously.

Managing the Linux kernel, involving many teams of programmers, with a constant view on what is going on and what is needed in the human world as a whole, is an enormous task in which Linus himself has always maintained a major team managerial presence; had it been some useless manager (the sort generally who portray themselves as somehow superior "people persons") then Linux would no doubt have died off as a piece of junk rubbish a long time ago.

Indeed, I have no doubt that the only reason Puppy Linux is so good is that the only true manager of the project is also its creator and technical lead. It is no accident that much the same can now be said of Tiny Core Linux; these guys know what they are doing and the growing quality of the result demonstrates that. The same goes for Slitaz; their offerings are fantastic because their management teams are incredibly skilled technical experts who clearly also have an exceptional understanding of the needs of the ordinary user.

'Wiser than everybody else' managers, on the other hand, remind me of the old George Bernard Shaw adage: "those who can, do; those who can't, teach"
[and no, I'm not having a go at teachers, most of whom are excellent at their craft precisely because they also have their own copious "real world" experience regardless of what some fools imagine or propagate].

In practice, you may in fact be technically proficient yourself (and I trust that you are), and if not, it would be good if somebody who is would also start using Linux distributions as a model for Internet cafes; their systems would in that case be the better ones and thus better for the community at large.

It was of course the politicians who arranged to have the nuclear bombs dropped on Japan, not the scientists who had been paid to create them (indeed most of them were very outspoken against any such use).

I am not in a position to know one way or the other whether ttuuxxx would be any good as the overall Puppy release coordinator. However, I certainly think that anyone who doesn't have the technical abilities required for such a job wouldn't be. Finding out what users want is very much the easier part of the equation; isn't that the kind of job that all managers (of the "those who can't, teach" sort) are after? [of course such managers even delegate most of that work to low-rewarded underlings who have to go round doing the actual asking].
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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 1104
Location: Vienna Austria

PostPosted: Mon 04 May 2009, 09:48    Post subject:  

mcewanw wrote:

Quote:
Indeed, I have no doubt that the only reason Puppy Linux is so good is that the only true manager of the project is also its creator and technical lead


Hear hear to all of the above post. All this talk of a committee of "managers" to oversee Puppy when Barry finally retires leaves me feeling concerned. Puppy has never in its history been managed other than by a benevolent dictator - recently by WhoDo for 4.2. It's also why WhoDo was so well received as the co-ordinator - he does make a good benevolent dictator.

What irritates me about Ecomoney as well, is his self-appointment to this "managerial" task. The premises that underpin his philosophy of "users to the fore" are simply incorrect.

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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Mon 04 May 2009, 12:58    Post subject:  

Ok....first and foremost, I do not wish to oversee/manage/own Puppy Linux. Ive stated this on many occasions. I do want to see it as a much more used technology. It needs to be a "more used" technology. To do this Ive got to come across as less egotistical....Im not arguing with that.

Ok.....Ive knocked WhoDo and Ttuxxx over the issues with 4.2.0. This wasnt a good strategy. Now they take anything I say as me "getting at them". They did the best they could with the knowledge/experience/background they have....

Ok....the other good point is that anyone "in charge" should have some "Technical" as well as some "user" experience of Puppy Linux, plus a good understanding of its aims and objectives, and of development techniques. Ive got a lot experience as a programmer from a "technical" background too, quite a bit in fact...If someone asks I will tell them, Im an "Open Book". If I post what Ive done programmatically/technically in the past will you all say "egotist" or Im looking to Lead? How can I win?

Ok.....Im worried too about the future of Puppy when BarryK leaves

Our main aim at the moment should be to create something sustainable for the long term development of Puppy, and Im willing to work *with* whoever will make that happen.

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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Location: Vienna Austria

PostPosted: Mon 04 May 2009, 15:07    Post subject:  

ecomoney wrote:

Quote:
To do this Ive got to come across as less egotistical....Im not arguing with that


Well, that's progress at least.

I must admit that I too am guilty of being egotistical on occasions. Most people are like this sometimes. If you see me doing that, you have full permission to pull me up for it!

There must be a help-guide somewhere on the internet that describes a good methodology for getting what you want - but without making it obvious. Sounds like good management practice to me.

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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Wed 06 May 2009, 22:57    Post subject:  

Quote:
There must be a help-guide somewhere on the internet that describes a good methodology for getting what you want - but without making it obvious. Sounds like good management practice to me.


just looking on Amazon under author "William Gates" Laughing

Honestly, I always describe myself to the people I work with IRL as the "Delivery Boy" for Puppy Linux, I write up what I do as an intended encouragement for the puppy developers to continue doing what they do. If Im coming across wrong I will review my writing style.

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bugman


Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 2131
Location: buffalo commons

PostPosted: Wed 13 May 2009, 07:39    Post subject:  

@trio

thanks for the pet, some poor misguided soul sent me a docx file today, and with your help i was able to see the cursed thing

Very Happy

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trio


Joined: 21 Dec 2008
Posts: 1893
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PostPosted: Wed 13 May 2009, 08:01    Post subject:  

cursed that docx Laughing you are welcome bugman
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