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ttuuxxx
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#76 Post by ttuuxxx »

zigbert wrote:I get rather upset by all the icewm-chat. It could be my absence of knowledge ..... I then apologize.

JWM pet package is 69 kb.
If ttuuxxx can strip down Icewm to only 1500 kb ... then including in the official Puppy :?: :?

Can anyone explain what do we get of new features after adding 1431 kb.

There is a lot of goodies we could add if 1.5 mb were available.

Sigmund
Hi zigbert

One thing you could get is user "willhunts" 176 themes pet package
http://hostfile.org/icepak.pet
Plus just the looks blows away JWM even with gtk2, if you ever seen my my default themes in 3.0.2 with the puppy paws to close pages and golden dog bones to lower or minimize pages, Thats truly unique to puppy and took for ever to design and figure out.
Plus if you want to change the menu button, taskbar, and ,menu background its just 3 simple images and makes the theme look completely different, Its simple to change and no code involved. Which is excellent for new users. Also icewm has a lot more of configurations compared to jwm. for 1.5 mb I think its a keeper, actually I might be able to even make it smaller. maybe 1MB. I personally think its the most user friendly WM available to Linux. You have around 100 options if you want to change settings and the Best part Zigbert is ---------- Gxine works fullscreen, you can change the aspect ratio without borders or crashing. It just generally works much better.
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
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#77 Post by Lobster »

There is a lot of goodies we could add if 1.5 mb were available.
Exactly so
Petch
and Precord
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 508#203508
are two examples that are under 10k.
Do we have others?
Puppy Raspup 8.2Final 8)
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HairyWill
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#78 Post by HairyWill »

@zigbert,
I can completely sympathise with your view on jwm vs ice. In many respects jwm's limited themeability is an asset, I personally like the clean straight lines. I have also invested effort in hacking the jwm source which is fairly easy to understand.

I know of two functional problems with jwm from the puppy perspective. These are fullscreen problems for gxine and flash (I have provided a patch for flash) and lack of support for the gtk SKIP_TASKBAR_HINT. Neither of these are show stoppers but the lack of activity on the jwm mailing list may be a problem in the future.

Personally I don't think an extra 1.5MB for icewm is worth it, but for those that like to demonstrate their themeing skills the cost seems justifiable. Generally the puppy philosophy would seem to be to use the lightest functional complete option. Applying this logic, for the vast majority of people, jwm as default, with icewm in the repository would seem to be the best option. When I'm scraping my rear along the ground trying to run a usable puppy on a 300MHz CPU the last thing I care about is what the window titlebar controls look like.

Here we go again, the window manager wars, openbox anyone
ttuuxxx wrote:It just generally works much better.
What does this mean. I've specifically listed the two functions icewm deals with better than jwm that I am aware of, are there any more or are you just handwaving.
Will
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ttuuxxx
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#79 Post by ttuuxxx »

HairyWill wrote:@zigbert,
I can completely sympathise with your view on jwm vs ice. In many respects jwm's limited themeability is an asset, I personally like the clean straight lines. I have also invested effort in hacking the jwm source which is fairly easy to understand.

I know of two functional problems with jwm from the puppy perspective. These are fullscreen problems for gxine and flash (I have provided a patch for flash) and lack of support for the gtk SKIP_TASKBAR_HINT. Neither of these are show stoppers but the lack of activity on the jwm mailing list may be a problem in the future.

Personally I don't think an extra 1.5MB for icewm is worth it, but for those that like to demonstrate their themeing skills the cost seems justifiable. Generally the puppy philosophy would seem to be to use the lightest functional complete option. Applying this logic, for the vast majority of people, jwm as default, with icewm in the repository would seem to be the best option. When I'm scraping my rear along the ground trying to run a usable puppy on a 300MHz CPU the last thing I care about is what the window titlebar controls look like.

Here we go again, the window manager wars, openbox anyone
ttuuxxx wrote:It just generally works much better.
What does this mean. I've specifically listed the two functions icewm deals with better than jwm that I am aware of, are there any more or are you just handwaving.
Well Hairy lately you've shown that you are generally against anything that I say, If its a personal vendetta, and if so maybe lets work it out as gentleman in PM. If by coincidence you have made 2 negative post in a row against me, then Its ok. any which way, have you figured out the Gxine problem and made a patch??? I have seen tons of users really mad at Gxine or would your solution be add another 5-10 MB and change media players to Mplayer or VLC? or add less than 2MB or even around 1MB and make everybody happy? Plus lets not forget most of our popular derivatives are icewm, Like macpup, My series, lighthouse, some of Mu's, the most popular ce ever 2.15 and soon to be 302, The list is endless, Plus I personally don't think 1MB is going to topple a 300MHz CPU, what is your pc doing a balancing act, what happens when you open a flash game, does it crash? Come on, we aren't talking about 30MB. Icewm is the most popular aftermarket wm that puppy has, look how popular Ezpup is plus my versions like
my lite versions have been downloaded around 800 times
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=27358
then my icewm 4.0 series http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 0de68e6054
which Eric would have the download stats on that, but I am sure its really high also.
So lets summarize the benefits for 1MB_/+
new users will have a OS that the video works properly, They can customize the os by adding one pet theme to make it look like windows 95,98,xp,vista,mac. something they feel comfortable with, Just one pet package, or they can use your route, have something that looks foreign, that is 5+MB larger to actually play video right, and kind of confusing to change a window manager, most need guided help to do that. All for 1MB not a real thought out plan Hairy.
ttuuxxx
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#80 Post by Eyes-Only »

Hi Will! :)

I'm sitting here in my chair waving my hand for Openbox/LXpanel. Do you see me? LOL! Of course that's simply my personal preference and I can't give a reason as to "why" it would be better, yada, yada...

Folks? I've been a supporter of IceWM ever since I came to Puppy a year before I joined the forum (<---listed over there somewhere). But Will and Zigbert both bring up a very valid point here and that is that JWM---which I don't use---is very lite-weight and takes up little room at all to manage the windows. Check in top/htop and compare the difference. Plus as Lobster and others say, you can add more of these helpful programmes in that are lite-weight in place of even the 1meg IceWM. Maybe not the Windows Refugee will be using those little 10kb programmes, yet sometimes we do have to stop and think of US along the way as well, don't we? And it's a lot easier when booting into RAM to fix a disk problem to have those 10kb programmes installed than to take the time to make the connection and HOPE you can get it from one of the repos. (Voice of experience here for when I need to check my reiserfs partitions using 4.0 booting in RAM!)

And yet I've never minded, when wanting to make a major improvement to my Puppy once I've created a pup_save.2fs or hard drive install, to then connect and get my various window managers from the repos if need be. It's always been for me anyway "The Puppy Way": Small on the disk---plentiful in the repos because as a Puppy owner we all have .pets. Okie, bad pun. Lobster started it! :P

Of course, that's just my own opinion and there are 6.5 billion others in the world...

That aside: I'm glad the person (drongo?) brought up about the boot-up sequence! AMEN BROTHER! For those whose first language is not English (You thought mine was? -tsk! tsk!-) that's a dreadfully-frightening sight to behold and then before you can even get through the first two lines---Puppy's up and booting! ACK!

What a wonderful idea he brought up! I set all my English grubs for 60seconds. Hell, I can't even MOVE faster than that! :lol: That gives me time to select which one of the six systems or 5 options I wish to boot into in the morning. Nice! Or, I can accept the default and press "enter". I loved his idea with the "go 1: go 2:..." etc. and the default being RAM so as not to mess up what we have. Go through the Beginner's Section here and how often do you see, "I couldn't read fast enough, the new disk started, and I corrupted my save file..." or similar?

Okie, I've "manger les mots" (chewed the fat) for long enough. Thanks for allowing me the space!

Amicalement mes amis!

jimmi
"L'Peau-Rouge"
*~*~*~*~*~*
Proud user of LXpup and 3-Headed Dog. 8)
*~*~*~*~*~*

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#81 Post by HairyWill »

@ttuuxx
I've got nothing against you personally, please do not misunderstand my intentions.

We are in agreement about the gxine problem.

Because of the problems I know of with jwm, I do not have strong feelings about which window manager should be default and would not make a great deal of effort to push either way.

I do however want to make sure that the matter is debated with full knowledge and am still interested to know what you mean specifically by "generally better". I am interested to know if there any jwm problems or icewm benefits that are not stated specifically here.
Will
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no real problem?

#82 Post by wanderer »

this is really a question

if you use the unleashed system
with pets sfs etc

is there really a problem
with which application
a person prefers
window manager / browser etc
couldn't they all just be made into pets or sfs

the official release puplet or community edition
is really a tribute to the individual guy/guys
who put in the work and expertise to create it

i think most people would want to tweak something or other
just a little to suit their fancy

of course everything would have to be made compatible
for each release

by the way thank you
to Barry K
and all you guys
who are actually doing the work
organizing and building
this is really a great community

wanderer

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#83 Post by Pizzasgood »

JWM does have a feature that I consider Very Handy, along with another I like a lot. You can scroll the mouse wheel on the desktop to change workspaces. IceWM doesn't let you do that. I've considered seeing if I could hack IceWM to add that, but never got around to it. The other feature I like is similar: you can scroll the title-bar to roll up a window. IceWM requires a double-middle-click, IIRC.

The main thing I like about IceWM is the looks. With JWM 2, this is not as big of a deal. The old version was ugly. The latest actually looks half decent. Particularly if you give the title-bar color and a nice little gradient.

IceWM's themes are cool, but that's fluff. As long as we have something that looks reasonable, we're fine.

An advantage that IceWM does have is that it doesn't require restarting the WM to update the menu. On the other hand, that may slow down the menu loading. I haven't done a comparison though, so not sure.


IMHO, JWM is more fitting with the Puppy mentality. IceWM users would probably download a new theme anyways, so downloading IceWM itself isn't that big of a deal.

Changing WM is trivial. In fact, the packager could have the pinstall script offer to set it as the default WM automatically. Key word: offer. Don't want it to just automatically change things. If that same package were to be added to an unleashed tree, you should also ensure that it only prompts if being installed on a running system, and not when Unleashed runs the pinstall scripts.
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#84 Post by alienjeff »

ttuuxxx wrote:... if you ever seen my my default themes in 3.0.2 with the puppy paws to close pages and golden dog bones to lower or minimize pages
I can't say I remember ever "seening" them.

However, when I saw those the first thing that came to mind was, "Who the !*^%#@ designed this theme? Fisher-Price?
Thats truly unique to puppy and took for ever to design and figure out.
Remember that "unique" is not synonymous with "good" or "improved."

I believe you meant "forever." And I assume you were speaking metaphorically, as if they literally took "for ever," you'd still be working on them, wouldn't you?

All that aside, they're fluff. Ask yourself does the form follow function?

I'll leave you with this: I'm running Gxine 0.5.903-1 using xine-lib 1.1.16, built with 1.1.14 under JWM V2.0.1 and have no problem running full-screen. This is with Arch Linux on a dual-Pentium III box.

Though running Puppy 2.12 on a 233-MHz Pentium II Gateway laptop, Gxine runs full-screen just fine, too.

So please stop kicking Joe Wingbermuehle in the groin, mmmkay?
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#85 Post by WhoDo »

Pizzasgood wrote:IMHO, JWM is more fitting with the Puppy mentality. IceWM users would probably download a new theme anyways, so downloading IceWM itself isn't that big of a deal.
Ok, this is exactly what I didn't want ... a debate about what would be the default WM.

Let me state from the outset, JWM will be the default WM in Puppy 4.2 - no debate.

I thought about including IceWM as a second WM, only IF it could be made small enough to justify that, because of the ease with which it can be made to look like Window$. It's a usability thing for refugees; nothing more.

If you think of it that way, and realise that I'm not trying to foist EZpup onto the standard package, then you may just see why I suggested it as a possibility for a second included WM. It could also let relatively inexperienced users quickly get into a GUI interface to fix whatever might have been broken at the last experiment in JWM. Just a thought.

@Zigbert - your point about available space is well made. I have no intention of leaving out valuable functionality to gain a second WM. I hope that puts your mind at ease.

What you have given Puppy is much needed breathing space, in terms of full GUI functionality at an exceptionally low cost in space. That is definitely the Puppy ethos and I have no intention of changing that. Please rest easy on that score.

Cheers.
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suggestions

#86 Post by raffy »

Re the boot prompt, I agree with the suggestion to simplify it, say "Press F2 for advanced options". Related to this, I've made remasters that essentially say "Press i then ENTER to install Puppy or do system maintenance" (else startup is normal, it will use a save file). isolinux.cfg should be easy to change along this idea.

Re JWM, it is really small and functional, so Will's effort to update it is welcome. However, Michael Barnes in his article at desktoplinux.com tells the story that employees who initially find Linux "difficult" to use very quickly relaxed upon seeing a familiar desktop theme. This implies that we'll have to make the change of desktop appearance (to Win-like) more prominent in the menus.

Also, over at the "formal organization" thread, technosaurus is describing the Puppy desktop. This is another possible desktop/theme that can be offered in the menu.

May I also mention the possibility of trimming the menus to show only the most-used applications? Or have "simple" and "full" menus as options in the first boot (the default can be set as "simple"in syslinux.cfg or isolinux.cfg). Of course, if there are really very few applications in the ISO, then there is no other option but "simple", and no parameter is needed.
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Re: suggestions

#87 Post by alienjeff »

raffy wrote:Re JWM, it is really small and functional, so Will's effort to update it is welcome. However, Michael Barnes in his article at desktoplinux.com tells the story that employees who initially find Linux "difficult" to use very quickly relaxed upon seeing a familiar desktop theme. This implies that we'll have to make the change of desktop appearance (to Win-like) more prominent in the menus.
Implies? Have to make the change?

Why?

Because Michael Barnes's "story" - true or otherwise - in an article at desktoplinux.com?

Because some refugees from Windows experience some initial anxiety?

Anxiety addressed below:
























Image

By the proposed philosophy, why don't you just strip this OS down to the desktop and just have one, big, "familiar" icon: say, uh ... the Microsoft flag furled from the top of a puppy's tail.

Click the icon and it opens Wine! Then Barnes's gun shy users can run all their "familiar" Windows apps.

And think how much you can trim the distro down! You might even come close to SliTaz in ISO size (though NEVER come close to SliTaz excellence in documentation).
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#88 Post by cthisbear »

" Well Hairy lately you've shown that you are generally against
anything that I say, If its a personal vendetta "

/////////////

ttuuxxx:

I am sure that deep down you are a nice enough bloke.
I am in fact certain of it.

I for one love your enthusiasm.
And you have without a doubt put out some great releases.

But when you keep putting your head in the mouths
of lions, eventually you may have a nasty experience.

Now I know this is coming from Mr Sarcastic here.
I am only on L Plates 4 Niceness.....
I don't usually discriminate.........I hate everybody.

But cool down.
Back off from the precipice.

Opinions here are OK.
Disagreements are OK as well.
Arguments, hurt feelings are OK.
Bluntness even.
And I'm all for tantrums.
Never put me under a car for more than 5 minutes.
A humiliating and terrifying event for anyone around me.

But let us return to Puppy.

After all of the above, we should declare that
our project is generally for a Nobler Cause.
A little bit of feel good about ourselves.
Maybe some thanks and praise.

We are doing it better than Gates...Bullmer and Jobs.
So we perservere, we are not a team of champions,
we are are champion team.
Old St George Leagues Club saying?

Maybe our newspaper pal gal....Cattylyn Martin
will write a glowing appraisal of our beloved distro.
I've spoilt the moment now haven't I?

So maybe before you post a less than positive memo here,
you might go and look at this vid....
have a scream, loosen the bile...
and then come back to join us in the Good fight.

And no....my suggestions are for others...never moi.

Not happy Jan.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=2akt3P8ltLM

::::::::::::
WhoDo:

I just want puppy to boot up and work.
Click the Icon = works mentality.

But why can't we put 2 fish in the pond.
Didn't Mu in one of his first Muppy releases allow you
to boot the full version....German if you wanted it...
and then the smaller or bigger Muppy?

If we couln't do that....why not 2 dogs out of
the same kennel.
Old Fido....trusty...from our lineage of great past releases,
and a ttuuxxxiated version with some bells and whistles,
but just a few more megs.....5 at the most.

Everybody is happy.
We don't have to be fast...have a date set out in stone.
I really think that it is a way to go.
And the crapola and name calling ends.
A team at Bathurst runs 2 cars.
If one is the more successful, even the winner..
the glory still goes to the team.
Every driver sets up his car differently...even the seat.

Chris.

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#89 Post by Lobster »

WhoDo do you have some preliminary idea of the wish list we are aiming towards?

Do you intend to use Zigberts scheme and maybe cut down/out unpopular eye-candy?
Is there a minimum of 'certain to be in 4.2' options yet?
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#90 Post by WhoDo »

cthisbear wrote:WhoDo:
I just want puppy to boot up and work.
Click the Icon = works mentality.
I'm looking at this as an opportunity to show Barry that we can turn out a "standard" Puppy in the same way he does ... well almost, anyway. I don't want to complicate that objective with a whole slew of newer, bigger, better, brighter ideas. Those have their place, certainly, but only after we prove we can build the base version properly.

I'm hoping people will see the sense in that approach as a first step to weaning ourselves of our total dependence on Barry. That doesn't mean we can't be a little "inventive"; after all, that's part of Barry's approach to constant and continuous improvement. If you don't progress, you'll get left behind, so to speak.

That said, it should be in baby steps at first. Too much change too quickly is unsettling for those who are used to Barry's way - especially the code contributors who happily play away in the background creating the gems that go to make up modern Puppy. We don't want that. There has been enough panic already to last us at least two or three versions, IMHO.

Cheers, mate.
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#91 Post by WhoDo »

Lobster wrote:WhoDo do you have some preliminary idea of the wish list we are aiming towards?
Only the basic list you used for the wiki page, Ed. I'm hoping that people will either collect the ideas touted here, or enter their ideas directly in the wiki page. Just because an idea is there doesn't mean it will go in, but it does give our coders an opportunity see what people are looking for.
Lobster wrote:Do you intend to use Zigberts scheme and maybe cut down/out unpopular eye-candy?
What "unpopular eye candy" is there in 4.1? Apart from the feeling that the default wallpaper needs to be either more Aussie or Puppy related, aren't we generally happy with the current look and feel of 4.1?
Lobster wrote:Is there a minimum of 'certain to be in 4.2' options yet?
I see no fundamental changes from 4.1.1, except maybe version updates, bug fixes, a bit of polish here and there on the usability front, etc. I haven't yet seen any viable alternatives to the current base set of applications - Abiword, Gnumeric, Seamonkey, Osmo, etc. I might try to squeeze in Portabase, since we have no small, easy-to-use database as standard. Other than that, I'm open to reasonable suggestions within the 84Mb - 90Mb weight range of the standard Dingo.

I should also point out that as this is Dingo and not Lassie, or Chihuahua. I'm not looking to add back Qt or tcl/tk apps either. Barry took those out to sharpen our focus for Dingo, and I'm keen to keep 4.2 on that track. If the community sees the need for later versions, we can consider that then. At the moment the challenge is simply to reproduce a Barry-standard Dingo release. That ought to be a monumental enough task for anyone. It certainly is for me! :wink:
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#92 Post by Pizzasgood »

Two isos just makes things more complicated. Rather than making one that's only slightly different, either go all the way and make one that is significantly different (which ttuuxxx is already doing with 5.x) or just make a smaller add on package.

Puppy has a remaster script for a reason.



I think Lobster meant removing unpopular eye-candy from Zigbert's theme, if it were used (i.e. the analog clock widget, and the supposedly scary red colors)
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#93 Post by ttuuxxx »

Something to think about whodo is
wxgtk is extremley useful, SDL is really small compared to wxgtk and should be in by default , The future looks like it will be Qt applications, But the Qt releases that barry did in past were too stripped down and things just didn't work right untill I compiled qt4 and found out puppy was missing a lot of the parts. I looked at the qt4-4.3.2 in the puppy package manager and also the Qt parts in the devx, together they still couldn't get things like Musescore to work. Only once I compiled QT4 did Musescore actually work with all the proper images, what was missing from barry's stripped down versions was the plugins. I wish he didn't do that, It wasted about 20hrs of my time trying to get it work plus about 5 other people who tried.
If we are going to make a repo or something like that, Things like qt could be broken into different parts, like webkit etc.
But you must be able to offer a complete packages to people and not give them false hope.
ttuuxxx
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#94 Post by WhoDo »

Pizzasgood wrote:I think Lobster meant removing unpopular eye-candy from Zigbert's theme, if it were used (i.e. the analog clock widget, and the supposedly scary red colors)
Oh ... kay. I like the clock, but I doubt we could use the gdesklets version in a standard Puppy based purely on size. Maybe we could have one if we used MU's Gtkbasic003 version instead? That has a size penalty too. I don't know that it's that important really.

The red version of Zigbert's theme is probably a little too different for a standard Puppy. I've suggested he consider a blue or green version instead. I certainly like the wallpaper but I'm not committing to anything there yet. There are bigger fish to fry IMHO.
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WhoDo
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Joined: Wed 12 Jul 2006, 01:58
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

#95 Post by WhoDo »

ttuuxxx wrote:Something to think about whodo is
wxgtk is extremley useful, SDL is really small compared to wxgtk and should be in by default.
Ok, so add it to the wish list on the wiki and we'll see. If you post suggestions for inclusion, don't forget to post an estimate of their size for the ISO and unpacked. That will help in the decision-making process.
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