Puppy 4.2

[Lobster]

Have now moved the site to the community website:
http://www.puppylinux.org/wiki/archives ... ep-thought

[Brandon]

I suppose my opinion isn't the most important. I haven't been around for a couple months, because I has trying other Linux Distros, to expand my knowledge, but I'm back again, and the minute 4.1 comes out, I'll be installing it, and you can expect a DCL 2009 in early 2009.
I think that any project that ever gets done needs a leader of some kind, maybe we elect them to run the project for a release and we have an election every couple months?
Also having 2 branches of Puppy, 3 and 4, maybe we should have a leader running each, and have them talk to make sure everything stays somewhat similar.
I don't want to see Puppy fall apart, but If it does, it means more cool lightweight, easy to use distros!

[Lobster]

Another logo, this from Rastapix
- who is also working on icons for 4.2 (given enough time - he is busy with work)

[ttuuxxx]

Hey lobster I went to http://www.puppylinux.org/wiki/archives ... ep-thought
and you actually said Use EZpup 4.1/4.2 Eyecandy as default WM
OH my God who voted a 17MB pet package to be the new eye candy standard, LOL man thats needs to be rethinked,
I think the better one is my last 4.0 lite icewm 2mb including 86 new icons that was compiled on 4.0 not 3.0 like ezpup 4.0 was. what about the size issues and complications that would bring?
P.s lobster when you mass email people about 4.2 could you included me in it also I like the wiki page you made up

ttuuxxx

[Lobster]

I would say that JWM is working OK (apparently not currently being developed) and Ezpup or IceWm 2Mb - which does sound more puppian - or even xfce is a matter of choice - so the WM is not a priority

As the info is on a wiki - please add your choice

Whoever is putting together 4.2 (4.1 is not out yet) will be able to make a more informed choice.

[Max Headroom]

Regarding upgrades of packages, including Xorg 7.4, ALSA, SANE, XINE, etc. ... well, perhaps that will be done for 4.2!

Posted on 23 Sep 2008, 19:43 - Category: Puppy

[eightbitz]

Maybe not the right place to say it...But I wanted to say I really appreciate the work you guys have put into this little OS. I've been a lurker of this forum for years and have been watching the progress from the sideline. I think puppy fits a niche for people whom like to tinker/experiment, and doesn't need all of the glam (or high system requirements) of Ubuntu/Vista and such.

On a side note I wonder if it's time to move to ICEWM as default.

Keep up the good work (maybe one day I'll start contributing myself)

[WhoDo]

I think the better one is my last 4.0 lite icewm 2mb including 86 new icons that was compiled on 4.0

@ttuuxxx - I have another small project for you. I am of a mind to include IceWM as an alternative window manager in Puppy 4.2, perhaps preempting a change in 4.3 or or beyond for the default. For the moment, though, JWM will remain the default in 4.2 ... SO, what I would like to see is a seamless, easy, reliable system for switching between the two wm's that newbies can use from the menu at a single click. Are you up for that?

I know that we have had issues before in getting from IceWM back to JWM. RichardA (I think?) tried to integrate the change and had problems he couldn't resolve around restarting X etc. Such a system would be considered a usability add-on in Puppy 4.2 and I'm sure would be welcomed by proponents of both wm's. Waddayasay?

[MU]

The concept is easy.
Do not run from .xinitrc:
exec $CURRENTWM

Instead, run:
exec puppywm $CURRENTWM

puppywm is such a script:

Code: Select all

#!/bin/ash

$1 &

while [ 1 ]
do

sleep 10000

done

So instead of a windowmanager, the last instance is a endless script.
Now you can type in a rxvt:
killall jwm
icewm &

Or:
killall icewm
jwm &

This will not exit X, as X still executes the endless script.

These commands could be run from a script, that is accessable from the menu.
In Muppy, I used a more complicated approach, but if you want just 2 windowmanagers, such a simple solution will be better.
The only problem you might encounter, are timing problems, or problems to kill a WM.
Here is code to help you from Muppy (muppywmchooser):

To kill Icewm:

Code: Select all

	#killall icewm
	pid=`ps | grep " icewm " |grep -v grep | sed -e "s/^ *//" -e "s/ .*//"`
	kill $pid
	killall icewmtray
	sleep 2

To kill JWM:

Code: Select all

	# -- kill windowmanagers


	pid=`ps | grep " jwm " |grep -v muppywm|grep -v grep | sed -e "s/^ *//" -e "s/ .*//"`
	if [ "$pid" != "" ];then
		xmessage -bg orange -center -borderless -buttons "" "jwm shuts down, wait......" &
		mpid=$!
		#jwm needs a focus-change to continue, so build and destroy a second dummy-message
		xmessage -bg orange -center -borderless -buttons "" "jwm shuts down, wait......" &
		dpid=$!


		while [ "$pid" != "" ];do 
			pid=`ps | grep " jwm " |grep -v muppywm|grep -v grep | sed -e "s/^ *//" -e "s/ .*//"`
			kill $pid
			kill $dpid
		done
		sleep 2
		kill $mpid

	fi

Mark

[WhoDo]

The concept is easy.
Do not run from .xinitrc:
exec $CURRENTWM

Instead, run:
exec puppywm $CURRENTWM

Thanks, Mark. I'll give it a try.

[ttuuxxx]

I think the better one is my last 4.0 lite icewm 2mb including 86 new icons that was compiled on 4.0

@ttuuxxx - I have another small project for you. I am of a mind to include IceWM as an alternative window manager in Puppy 4.2, perhaps preempting a change in 4.3 or or beyond for the default. For the moment, though, JWM will remain the default in 4.2 ... SO, what I would like to see is a seamless, easy, reliable system for switching between the two wm's that newbies can use from the menu at a single click. Are you up for that?

I know that we have had issues before in getting from IceWM back to JWM. RichardA (I think?) tried to integrate the change and had problems he couldn't resolve around restarting X etc. Such a system would be considered a usability add-on in Puppy 4.2 and I'm sure would be welcomed by proponents of both wm's. Waddayasay?

Hey WhoDo

I like your thinking, that is an excellent idea!!, I'm glad Mu is leading the way on it, This is going to be great if you implement it. Would make a lot of new & old users very happy.
ttuuxxx

[Lobster]

On a side note I wonder if it's time to move to ICEWM as default.

DSL has two window managers (one of which is JWM - allowing for a more generic Puppy interface)

IceWm is more reliable and configurable than JWM (discontinued?) and remember if Puppy crashes because of the Window manager - who gets the blame?)

In the days before JWM Puppy never crashed - NEVER!
Two major sources of problems have been JWM and Flash (but we need Flash)

So Puppy can do more but at a cost . . .
I think using both Window managers is a great compromise and many people want it. They want their OS to look nice and be configerable.

I hope we have room . . .

[WhoDo]

The concept is easy.
Do not run from .xinitrc:
exec $CURRENTWM

Instead, run:
exec puppywm $CURRENTWM

Thanks, Mark. I'll give it a try.

@MU - Sorry, Mark, but no joy. I created the puppywm and called it from .xinitrc exactly as suggested. It wouldn't let me swap without also killing X and dropping me to a system prompt. Getting back was easy enough ... sometimes. A couple of times I had to run the xorgwizard to rebuild my xorg.conf file!

@ttuuxxx - I am trying to be reasonable and offer choices wherever possible. I'm also counting on you to produce the latest bug-free IceWM compiled on 4.x and taking around 2.5Mb or less. How's that for a challenge!

@Lobster - I hope it fits, too, Ed. It makes sense to offer the choice if we don't compromise the size objective. I'm still aiming for sub-95Mb with Puppy 4.2 and a solid, reliable and usable platform for the versions that follow. Barry has done heaps to get us to the door. All we need to do is to walk on through.

[ttuuxxx]

@ttuuxxx - I am trying to be reasonable and offer choices wherever possible. I'm also counting on you to produce the latest bug-free IceWM compiled on 4.x and taking around 2.5Mb or less. How's that for a challenge!

I can deliver that but it can't be the latest version, the reason why is that the latest version is full of bugs and doesn't compile properly, but I can compile the previous version no problem. has that sound, and for 2.5MB it will be much less
I hope I can keep my min/lower/max window buttons with the paws, I really like them I also can include a couple of new small themes I've been building, I'll try to get the target around 1.5MB or less
ttuuxxx

[01micko]

I can deliver that but it can't be the latest version, the reason why is that the latest version is full of bugs and doesn't compile properly, but I can compile the previous version no problem. has that sound, and for 2.5MB it will be much less
I hope I can keep my min/lower/max window buttons with the paws, I really like them I also can include a couple of new small themes I've been building, I'll try to get the target around 1.5MB or less
ttuuxxx

I love those paws, it's another great puppy innovation. Will they work ok with Zigbert's gtk orangish theme he has you working on?

[ttuuxxx]

I can deliver that but it can't be the latest version, the reason why is that the latest version is full of bugs and doesn't compile properly, but I can compile the previous version no problem. has that sound, and for 2.5MB it will be much less
I hope I can keep my min/lower/max window buttons with the paws, I really like them I also can include a couple of new small themes I've been building, I'll try to get the target around 1.5MB or less
ttuuxxx

I love those paws, it's another great puppy innovation. Will they work ok with Zigbert's gtk orangish theme he has you working on?

Only if we also use icewm. So far I haven't been able to theme JWM min/lower/max buttons, just icewm
ttuuxxx

[seeker]

WhoDo,

A suggestion for puppywm, why not write the chosen window manager to /etc/windowmanager and pop up a notice that the changes will take effect the next time you start Puppy, or something like that. I read about that in another thread and it was reported to work.

Seeker

[MU]

Whodo,
I just tried it in a fresh Puppy 4.1.0.

Here is what I did:
Typed in rxvt:
touch /usr/local/bin/puppywm
chmod 755 /usr/local/bin/puppywm
leafpad /usr/local/bin/puppywm&

Here I entered the code an saved:

Code: Select all

#!/bin/ash
$1 &
while [ 1 ]
do
sleep 10000
done

Then edited the end of /root/.xinitrc like this:

Code: Select all

#exec $CURRENTWM
#v2.11 GuestToo suggested this improvement...
exec puppywm $CURRENTWM
#which $CURRENTWM && exec $CURRENTWM
#[ -x $CURRENTWM ] && exec $CURRENTWM
exec jwm

Now I exited X, and typed:
xwin
to check, that JWM starts as usual.

Then installed icewm:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=31835

Then restarted X from the JWM menu.
Now Icewm starts.

I open rxvt and type:
killall icewm
jwm &

Now jwm starts.

Now back to icewm:
killall jwm
I now must move the mouse outside rxvt, so that jwm exits.
JWM needs a focus change of a window, or will not exit.
In the code to kill jwm that I had posted, this is simulated by displaying another xmessage, this creates a focus change without moving the mouse.

Now I type:
icewm &

And icewm runs.
No restart of X is required.

Can you reproduce that so far?
If not: when does X exit on your system?
Mark

[PaulBx1]

I will throw in a few comments. (BTW, "Puppy Power" is a weird place to put this thread; I had trouble finding it.)

My impression in the past is that Puppy versions were typically left with too many unaddressed bugs before Barry went off in a completely new direction. I'm pleased that it looks like 4.1 is being groomed a bit more (we're getting 4.1.2 shortly) and I hope that trend continues, at least for some releases.

Could the arch linux model of releases (i.e., there are none) apply to Puppy? For example, the iso gets rebuilt every day, or something like that? I don't understand all the implications - far from it - but what I did understand looked pretty interesting to me.

Some mentioned getting rid of gparted. I'd really hate to see that go. It is one of the really solid and professional things about Puppy. At least make it available as a pet.

My sore spot (sorry if I sound like a broken record) is security. It's nice that encrypted pupsaves are available, but cryptoloop is "deprecated". Couldn't we move toward dmcrypt or loop-aes? Or at the very least, put whatever hooks into the compiled OS to make it easy to add those as pets? And we should have pets for gpg, scramdisk or truecrypt, enigmail, etc. Puppy is portable, which at least suggests a little more work to allow users to easily haul around their stuff on a flash drive without worrying about loss. It's like we're "almost there", but haven't taken the last step.

Mark has talked about internationalization. Seems like a good idea. He shouldn't have to spend so much time to get his derivative usable in Germany. He shouldn't have to reinvent the wheel every time he wants a basic OS upgrade for his derivative.

Backup is a pain. Computers should be used for ordinary, everyday, administrative tasks, stuff that people don't want to be bothered with. Backup is the perfect candidate! We shouldn't need to remind ourselves to reboot pfix=ram to copy a pupsave somewhere (that is a 1970's-vintage solution). Backup should happen in the background, without user intervention (except for initial setup) and be there if things go awry. I tried to set something like this up with pbackup in 4.1.1, but no go; it doesn't work from the command line.

I suppose these suggestions would be more for a 5.0. I do agree baby steps are needed first.

[zigbert]

I read this morning about the new approach to icewm, and became VERY upset and frustrated. I took a long trip in the mountains (cross country skiing) to calm down. Can anyone try to explain me in easy words what is so extremely good with icewm that it is worth 1.5-2.5 mb. Is it only the upper buttons and gradiented tray as I got explained last time I asked. I have not used icewm much, simply because I couldn't find the reason for it. Why not include Songbird, inkscape and k3b. They are all much more sophisticated than the Puppy alternatives.

If jwm is crashing, then we really should try to figure out why, and if we need an alternative wm, why not choose blackbox or any other mini solution. Icewm is the big brother, and will never be the alternative. - Jwm will be the logical alternative. And then, I don't see the point of putting any work in a new jwm desktop. I should discontinue my desktop work, and put my effort in something that matters. If you find enough arguments for adding icewm, it MUST be the preferred choice.