Indexing of pages in Puppylinux.org

[puppian]

Frames do offer navigational convenience as the navigation bar (left pane) is always visible. However some of the disadvantages ARE important and need to be taken care of. For example, we are now in the sixth place when people search for "puppy" at Google (and the first when search for puppy linux)
That's partly due to the intelligent design of our current site http://goosee.com/puppy which has long pages with a high density of the keyword "puppy" (other reasons include many sites linking to that page, etc). We won't want to lose that high ranking

From: http://searchenginewatch.com/webmasters ... hp/2167901
"most search engine spiders will only see the master page. Just like an old browser, they don't understand the instructions on how to produce the frame layout. These are ignored, and only information within the noframes tags are read (information which a frames-capable browser will ignore).

So what do frame-challenged search engines see in our example? This is pretty typical of some frames-based sites:

Sorry! You need a frames-browser to view this site.

Obviously, we need to provide search engines with a much better description of the site than this. There's also another problem. There are no links within the noframes area to pages within the site. That means the search engines won't crawl past our master page. We could have hundreds of information-packed pages inside the site, but this simple mistake essentially makes them invisible to many search engines."

To illustrate the idea better, the cached version of this page is empty because the site uses frames. In short, the search engine knows there's such a page but doesn't know it's content (and therefore doesn't know what keywords it contain). When people search for a keyword which that page does have, the search engine won't return the page (and links are not followed as well).

You can find some workarounds from the page above, thou I don't know if they work well and whether our ranking would be affected. Anyway, make sure you've read (and understand) that page if you really want frames.

Read more:
Secret Benefits of Search Engine Optimisation: Increased Usability
How to Make Frames Search Engine Friendly

[raffy]

Understand your concern about using frames I myself am reluctant to use frames, but the problem at the moment is how to grab pages from different sites and display them without losing (or reproducing with some delay) one's master index. And I mean an index with lots of links to different pages.

As to search engines, I guess it all boils down to uniqueness. If there is only one Puppy Linux Foundation, then the engine will show that (supposedly). BTW, right now oss-2.com (our committees test site) is on top of Yahoo when one searches for Puppy Linux Foundation.

As to benefits from having multiple occurrences of words, the master index will have that feature.

As to having used sites with frames: yes, and they get indexed well by search engines.

In addition, the individual pages should be able to take care of their own search ranking via their content. Going on top of these "member" pages may not be the real issue at hand - there should be diversity. Plus, being on top will not matter to the master index as it knows that in hundreds of other pages, its own self is linked. (But as you said, if many sites are linked to you, you are driven to the top )

Lastly, search spiders must have evolved rapidly already. I guess now they're learning not to index sites that do nothing else but show Google ads. I just don't know if these spiders are friendly to lobsters - hey, they seem to be so.

[puppian]

...the problem at the moment is how to grab pages from different sites and display them without losing (or reproducing with some delay) one's master index. And I mean an index with lots of links to different pages.

Understand that. People can always open the links in a new tab of the browser if they want however (cms can keep a huge amount of links in an organized way too)

As to search engines, I guess it all boils down to uniqueness.

You are partly right. It's important that when people search for "puppy linux" puppylinux.org is one of the first few results shown. However, it is also VERY IMPORTANT that when people search for "linux" (and maybe "puppy" too), puppylinux.org is ranked high. RedHat, Debian, Gentoo, Slackware and Suse is doing a great job and is ranked top ten (DSL is top 50).

As to having used sites with frames: yes, and they get indexed well by search engines.

Yes, they get indexed, but as I said, the search engine DOESN'T KNOW what's in it.

If I search for the words
"EMINIMA (ICT for Empowerment) Wins Luzon Inventors' Contest"
which are found on your site: http://littlecandle.net/em/
at Google, it returns no results.

If I search for:
"Just letting you know you have saved three old computers at my home ...your Puppy wokeup the unwakeable"
which are found on puppy site, goosee.com/puppy is the first result returned.

Your site get indexed and if I search for the UNIQUE words that you entered in the meta tag of your page

Code: Select all

<meta name="keywords" content="littlecandle, EM, CMS, lampp, server, mini-CD, basic, education, elearning, ecommerce, egovernance, philippines">
<meta name="description" content="littlecandle EM CMS lampp server mini-CD for basic education,  elearning, ecommerce and egovernance, philippines">

For example if I search for "littlecandle, EM, CMS" your page will show up on top. However if I search for "elearning", your page will not be on top anymore. It will be buried in the 10,200,000 results returned. If you want to improve that,
1. the word "elearning" needs to appear many times in your page (high keyword density)
2. the search engine must be able to SEE your page, otherwise it won't help no matter how high the keyword density is

Search engines deside which page goes to the top by counting HOW MANY TIMES the searched keyword appeared in a page. If the search engine can't even see your page, you will never get good ranking.

To show how Google see your site, look at the cached version of it, which is empty now.

In addition, the individual pages should be able to take care of their own search ranking via their content.

Yes, those pages MAY or MAY NOT be showned by the search engines. Pages with similar URL are put in a "Similar pages" link (otherwise when you search for "raffy" it will return ALL the 3XX posts you've posted here ). Moreover, people who enter your site through those pages won't see the navigation bar (the left frame) and so they can't navigate to the other pages

As to benefits from having multiple occurrences of words, the master index will have that feature.

Yes, I think you mean a master index page with a lot of links and serves as the navigation bar (the left pane) and that can do part of the job. Nonetheless I don't think it can have the keyword dencity needed to help puppy site stands out amoung the 481,000,000 search results for the word "linux" (as compared to a content page which has many paragraph) Also, people would expect to see a typical homepage when they do a search, rather than a page full of links. A page with links only won't make sense to most people (especially those who visit the site for the first time) and they will probably just close it.

Anyway, as I have mentioned, there are some workaround that may handle that:
http://searchenginewatch.com/webmasters ... hp/2167901
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/increased-usability
http://www.isedb.com/db/articles/1021/
Please read them.

[EDIT]It seems that searching for ""EMINIMA (ICT for Empowerment) Wins Luzon Inventors' Contest" (words on your site) returns no result is due to the page cached by Google is not current. If it's current that search should give the 'individual page' in the left pane of your site LIKE THIS (I get it by searching for "Looking for EM partners or volunteering to be one?", which is in the outdated cached version). Adding meta-tag like: <meta name="revisit-after" content="10 days"> can avoid that problem. The arguments above are still valid however, google still can't see your main page.

[Pizzasgood]

I like tabs. I probably like tabs too much, as I frequently have more tabs than I have screen space. Frames don't like tabs as much. Say I don't know the page uses frames. I open a link in a tab while I read the main page. Then I close the main-page tab and go to the next one. When I get done, I realize that I can't get back, because it's in another tab, so I can't use back, and the nav-bar is gone. I can still get there through other means, but it's inconvenient.

Another problem with frames (though it doesn't apply in this situation) is that if you have a host that inserts banner adds, the navbar will have a banner in it.

The best bet is to have a single page with the nav-bar, then use php to insert it in all pages. That's what I do in my site. I can add stuff, and I only need to edit the single file. I plan to add a category type deal that only shows categories except the category you're in, where it shows all contents. It will still load from a single variable, but it will have a variable somewhere that keeps track of which page you're in.

I'd suggest that you use my PHnotsoPlacid CMS, but it isn't finished enough for me to trust it. The theming is good, news-posting works (it originated as a simple news engine) and it can manage pages, but it can't edit posts (you can edit the file they are in, though), has issues with permissions, and doesn't have an integrated page-developement system (though you can edit them as straight text, which will be interpreted as html, php, or whatever).

I can donate pieces, or make suggestions/ideas though.

Simple guidelines:
No frames
Keep formatting and content separate (may be possible through xml, I've never tried it. Definately possible through creative php use)
Keep styling separate from content (using CSS)
Keep a single navbar file and include it in all pages (PHP or JavaScript. PHP preffered, as JavaScript can be turned off)
Try to rely on JavaScript as little as possible.
Keep a simple, nice look. Think Google. Nice, clean, and fast.
No ugly tables. If you have to have a table, make it decent looking.

[BarryK]

I don't like frames either.
I hate it when you're on a page with frames and you click on a link to
another site, but it opens inside a frame on the current site.

[raffy]

EDIT: Barry now has a redirection page from the root index.php, so he can direct the index to a directory of his choice. I suggest we use "wikka/" for this. Wikka already functions as CMS, and there should be no issue about formatting 'coz it is a Wiki. Also, we have seen that its pages placed well in search engine rankings. Barry can also restrict access to (some or all) pages, so a degree of control can be achieved (he actually posted about this already).

However, it may be useful to give a few people chance for experimenting with alternative CMS (like Drupal) or a directory script for directing people to Puppy-related pages. I will confine my option/testing to a solution requiring only PHP, so my need will be as before, only access to one directory, call it "simple" as of now. Even the writeable property may be dispensed with.

I suggest Puppian be given a chance to experiment, too. He's been prolific in writing HTML pages inside the Wiki. Maybe you can come up with some collaborative tool for HTML writing, Puppian Will support you there

Cheers!

----------- Original Post below:

Good discussion going. Thanks.

Consider this: http://dsiware.com - a very simple but search-friendly CMS. Its access begins at the root (index.php outside of its folders), so the redirection problem is solved. It also separates formatting and content. However, it does require PHP and MySQL. Barry, you can try it in your pupweb.org site.

Its featured WYSIWYG editors are Htmlarea and Tinymce. Thus, even non-IE browsers will enjoy WYSIWYG.

Using CMS like this will require that the author has access to one MySQL database in the website (the database name, username, and password for that database only).
------------------------------

More EDIT: Puppian, you gave me a good idea there - to keep enriching the NoFrames part of my index page so Google (for example) will have the latest, simplest and most complete info about my website all the time! Puppian, you may not believe in angels, but you've just become one

[puppian]

I can donate pieces, or make suggestions/ideas though.

That would be great!

Simple guidelines:
No frames
Keep formatting and content separate (may be possible through xml, I've never tried it. Definately possible through creative php use)
Keep styling separate from content (using CSS)
Keep a single navbar file and include it in all pages (PHP or JavaScript. PHP preffered, as JavaScript can be turned off)
Try to rely on JavaScript as little as possible.
Keep a simple, nice look. Think Google. Nice, clean, and fast.
No ugly tables. If you have to have a table, make it decent looking.

Very well said Pizzasgood Plus "same look across different browsers/OS/screen resoulution".

I hate it when you're on a page with frames and you click on a link to
another site, but it opens inside a frame on the current site

Me too

Wikka already functions as CMS

That's true. I like using our wiki a lot (I learn how to use it from Lobster, Ian, G2, etc, thanks guys!). Wikka lacks in organizing pages (especially when there are many) and navigational convenience thou, since it won't generate sitemap and navigation bar automatically (that's why we have the sitemap and categories maintained manually). On the other hand, some cms is wiki aware (eZ publish for example, look for "Wiki Aware" under "Flexibility"). Drupal has that as a free add on, but I think Drupal may have too many features for us. If using cms as front page, the system can allow collaborating editing between a group e.g, Barry, you, Lobster, G2, Ian, and a few other foundation members who have expressed interest in documentation (I think they are J_Rey and Seth), while still have wikka for community contribution. But yes you're right it's time to act (in the subject line of your post) , redirect index.php to /wikka at the moment is ok for me.

I like iWare http://dsiware.com you suggested, it's simple, easy to use and has a neat navigation bar (to the left of their demo site) I think I like it! The only concern is that it doesn't have 'Advanced Caching' and 'Page Caching', would performance be affected? I am no expert in that Maybe Pizzasgood can tell us Phpwcms suggested by jcagle is cool too, and PHP-Fusion is another simple one.

I suggest Puppian be given a chance to experiment, too. He's been prolific in writing HTML pages inside the Wiki. Maybe you can come up with some collaborative tool for HTML writing

It's my pleasure [edit: spelling mistake corrected ] to help puppy grow

Puppian, you gave me a good idea there..

You are welcome
Your harddisk install tutorial teach me a LOT too!!

[GuestToo]

the wiki links to Install DotPup software from the main page, which looks like this on my machine

i think many people often do not scroll down a page, so they often see only what is at the top of a page

since that page is about downloading dotpups, i think it might be better if the links to the actual dotpup pages were at the top, more like this

[BarryK]

Guys,
I want to forget all about web pages, wiki and other admin for awhile, and concentrate 100% on getting 1.0.6rc ready.

Lobster is now administrator of the new wiki.

I have just sent a personal message to raffy, giving him FTP details for puppylinux.org. Raffy may choose to delegate this access.

...so, go for it guys!

[raffy]

It's nice G2 posted a note about top links being more helpful to readers. I suddenly recalled that the "documentation wheel" has been taking shape long ago.

Let's not forget that G2, Flash and others have done a lot already for what we're discussing. Check out the sticky posts here.

Puppian, iWare is fast. It's the layout (using tables) that used to have setbacks, but maybe those were fixed already (?). While the admin interface is simple, it's not simple enough to ordinary people, so I had to do simplification to the max (Eminima was the result).

EDIT: This post is only a few minutes behind Barry's above. Will try doing something in 12 hours - my current access is not that secure

[puppian]

While the admin interface is simple, it's not simple enough to ordinary people

Most cms will have separate interface for admin and users (just like our wiki) Users (or you can called them content editors) don't need to know all the config (template, themes, modules, etc) stuff and they probable won't see those options in the user interface. There'll be "access control" in the admin panel as well. I don't know if iWare has these thou.
[edit]Raffy, in Drupal I think what config options a user can see is changed by the admin under "administer-->access control" in the left pane. This can differ with different cms

i think it might be better if the links to the actual dotpup pages were at the top, more like this

I put the 'What's dotpup' session on top as first time user may not know what's dotpup, and I can see the links on my machine (I think I use a higher resolution ). Something can certainly be done (e.g. shortening the 'what's dotpup' session) to improve that
[edit]G2, I have changed the page a bit, see if it's better now ...

Btw, here is the Anchor action of Wikka:
http://wikka.jsnx.com/AnchorAction
which allows linking to different parts of a page without using html within "" ""
That feature has been asked by klh sometime ago when he's editing the DotPupContributions page. The action doesn't come with the default installation and needs to be installed before it can be used however.

[Lobster]

Guys,
I want to forget all about web pages, wiki and other admin for awhile, and concentrate 100% on getting 1.0.6rc ready.

Lobster is now administrator of the new wiki.

I have just sent a personal message to raffy, giving him FTP details for puppylinux.org. Raffy may choose to delegate this access.

...so, go for it guys!

Thanks Barry

There is a lot still to do - so any help with the wiki is helping us get a great wiki and support Barrys concentration on Puppy106rc
Many thanks to those helping with the transfer - more helpers welcome. Good chance to update too. Remember a wiki page is live - can always be improved with the latest info . . .

I have released the following pages (which includes Puppy106) for new owners - If you wish to update and maintain this page then cutting edge info is gleaned from Barrys News page (there was some within the last week or two which needs to be added)

Owning a page does not mean other people can not access and edit it - it means you are the one keeping an eye on it

Puppy106 - would suit a cutting edge type
AboutPuppy - would suit anyone - bit of tweaking maybe?
BurningLinuxIsoBasics - would suit someone wanting to learn about this
SpanishLanguage - would suit a Spanish speaker
FrenchLanguage - would suit a French speaker

I will release more soon - so keep an eye open
The pages Barry "owns" are in reality owned by all of us - I created many pages as have others - but anyone can edit any page from their browser . . .
For some pages you have to login

Never used a wiki - now is your chance
Owning a page is a GREAT way of learning about that subject

[puppian]

Great info Lobster

news-posting works (it originated as a simple news engine

I had visited your site before when I first started my homepage and wanted to find a news engine for it The download link of PHPlacid seems broken however, so I ended up with something called CuteNews (but now I know that I don't have much news to write about really ) I like reading your recipes btw

And what's your favourite cms besides PHnotsoPlacid?

Edit: raffy I have tried the demo of iWare but can't find the WYSIWYG feature (I'm using firefox)
On their demo page it says:
Users wishing to make use of the WYSIWYG content authoring interface will need Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.5+. A plain text / HTML interface is also provided for other web browsers...

[raffy]

Funny demo that one, as TinyMCE is already in the downloaded files of the latest iWare version (5.0.4). I still have to test-run it.

I will also test-run Widgeditor. Will see what happens tomorrow.

[Pizzasgood]

Hmm... I restructured the site a few times since I uploaded that, and I must have missed a spot. It's pretty old though. When I get more caught up with my Puppy projects, I'll go and finish the news-editing, easy-page-creator, and permissions in PHnotsoPlacid then release that. I'm actually going to take a leaf from Mozilla's book and make it modular, so you can just use the parts you want, or the whole thing. They'll still share the same resouces, so installing them separately won't be any less efficient than getting the big one, unlike with Mozilla/Firefox/Thunderbird/etc.

As for the caching, I don't know. I guess it would just speed it up. I'm definately not a CMS expert. I actually made mine based on what I had heard a CMS could do. The closest things to another CMS I've used are the control-panels for my website (cspan, plesk, and vhcs). My knowledge is of how to do stuff by hand, like writing a simple filemanager from scratch, or using PHP and CSS to have pages like this:

Code: Select all

[block]
[title]Browser Load of Coolness[/title]
[text]
Browser Load of Coolness is where I, Pizzasgood, can display my creations. What kind of creations, you ask? Well, how about artwork, LEGOs, ideas, sandwich recipies, and programs for everything from computers to calculators.  Please keep in mind that this site is designed to work on standards compliant browsers.  If something is funny in, say, IE, thats too bad, and I will probably never fix it.
[/text]
[subtitle]State of the coolness on [currentdate]:[/subtitle]
[text]
Cooler than Queso!  Okay, so it's not [i]that[/i] cool yet, but it's getting
there :)
[/text]
[/block]
[=]
[block]
[title]Quote of the Visit[/title]
[text][randomquote][/text]
[/block]
[=]
[updates=5]
[=][=]
[block]
[title]Counter[/title]
[text]
[currentcount]
[/text]
[/block]

turn out like this: www.pizzasgood.com


I kind of like the wiki approach, because that way everything can be kept more up to date. In my experience, the wiki has been somewhat un-unified, but that can be changed, especially if it will be the main substance of the site. If anyone comes up with a general format, I'll go and change all three of my pages to match it

[jcagle]

Sorry for the delay.

Here are a couple of my web sites that are currently using phpwcms

http://www.caglewebcreations.com (excuse the front page, not much on the front, but just click the link to continue...that web site isn't totally complete yet but will be soon

http://www.enclaveonline.org

[Lobster]

I got this - using Flock - never seen that before may be of interest . . .
when visiting the link

Code: Select all

Internal Server Error
The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.

Please contact the server administrator, webmaster@caglewebcreations.com and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.

More information about this error may be available in the server error log.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
Apache/1.3.34 Server at www.caglewebcreations.com Port 80

[Pizzasgood]

Same here with Firefox. It's the server, not us.

FYI puppian, I fixed the link for PHPlacid. If you do try it, keep in mind it can't edit posts, so you have to do that by hand.

[raffy]

No luck with the FTP server, can't even submit support ticket...

Waiting for help from Barry...

[jcagle]

Yeah, this is embarrasing...I found that error tonight when I got home.

I just had all my pages transferred to a different company that is hosting my sites. Now my phpwcms based pages are messed up. I've contacted the company and they should have it fixed soon.