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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Fri 05 Sep 2008, 20:10    Post subject:  

Pizzasgood wrote:
So, if I understand things right, we need to start figuring out where to put this official Puppy revision-control-server.

We have two options here:

1. puppyweb.org which has a load of free space but problems with intrusions and maintenance.

2. puppylinux.org which has 750Gb of space just to maintain the web site and the wiki.

Is there a way we can make use of puppylinux.org for hosting Unleashed and SVN/GIT for maintenance? I can't imagine it would create huge bandwidth problems for the web site, especially if we maintain the core and packages separately. What do you guys think?

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Caneri

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PostPosted: Fri 05 Sep 2008, 20:26    Post subject:  

Hi Warren,

I may be able to offer a spot soon. I will need to discuss this with a new provider but this should be a low bandwidth situation but lots of storage space will be needed.

Storage is cheap so it may work when/if the provider agrees.

Best,
Eric

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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
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Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

PostPosted: Sat 06 Sep 2008, 01:12    Post subject:  

As far as just development goes, I doubt it would use a significant amount of bandwidth by today's standards, unless we get a bunch of people who all decided to checkout the entire tree at the same time.

Once a person's local copy is set up, all further transfers are done using a .delta/.diff type deal, to minimize bandwidth use.

So the way I see it, people who only plan to do a little here and there would just check out the portion they need for whatever it is they're working on. People who want to work on a lot and keep a fully up-to-date copy for testing would need the full tree, but once they have it they wouldn't need much bandwidth from there out to keep it up-to-date. It would also prevent them from having to wait to download whichever package they plan to work on in it's entirety. They'd just run svn update (or equivalent) to grab the latest updates, and start working.


We could possibly configure it to only allow registered users to checkout the whole tree, but let anonymous people grab individual packages or files. That way people can still get bleeding-edge stuff if they want it. The registered users could probably be divided up and given different bandwidth quotas or something too, so that anybody can sign up and then grab the full tree, but only once per week/month (they could update as much as they want). The developers would have unlimited bandwidth just in case they trash their computer and need to checkout a new copy or whatever. This is all theoretical though. I have no idea if either Git or SVN let you configure things this way.




I was reading up on Git earlier tonight. I get the impression that it's more powerful than SVN. I also read several places that said it has much better branching and merging support, but those comparisons were based on SVN 1.3. SVN 1.5, the current version, has supposedly improved this greatly, so I don't know what the current comparison would be.

Some of Git's syntax looked cleaner than SVN. Also, they use a much more efficient compression algorithm. According to what I read, SVN took 30 times as much space to store Mozilla's repo as Git did.
http://git.or.cz/gitwiki/GitSvnComparsion


Some aspects seem like they might be more complicated though. Mainly I'm thinking of the whole "distributed" aspect. But I don't know enough of how that works out in practice to make an intelligent comment. It seems like it's oriented towards a single person maintaining an "official" version of the repo on his own machine/server, and "manually" merging in the branches that other people work on. Whereas SVN is more of a central-server oriented system, with the server holding the official version and commits committing directly to that.

But like I said, I don't really know enough about Git to know how this would work out in practice. Also, I believe it does support an option to run the way SVN does.



One thing that may make us lean toward SVN would be maintaining consistency between the official repo and the sourceforge experimental repo which would be using SVN. Using SVN for that and Git for the official one could cause some confusion when people switch between them.

In the end, either will do the job. It's just a matter of which will be easier and more efficient.


And it's not like we need to choose now. I'm just regurgitating my thoughts. My thinking is we should start considering this stuff sooner than later, so that people have time to research and find out which system they prefer, what file structure they think will accomplish the job best, etc. Download them and try them out, see how they feel. Then when the time does come to chose, people will be prepared to make an intelligent decision rather than a spur-of-the-moment one.

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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Sep 2008, 01:23    Post subject:  

Oh, yes. Another thing I forgot earlier is that from what I understand, Cubans aren't allowed to develop using SourceForge due to my nation's idiotic laws. Therefor, having the server in a non-US location would probably be a good thing. Less stupidity to deal with. I think this would also help with things like audio codecs?

I believe Canada doesn't mess around with this embargo jazz?

Where is puppylinux.org at? Do they play follow-the-leader?

EDIT: According to whois, puppylinux.org is in Texas.

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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Sat 06 Sep 2008, 02:16    Post subject:  

Pizzasgood wrote:
Where is puppylinux.org at? Do they play follow-the-leader?

EDIT: According to whois, puppylinux.org is in Texas.

Yep. Hostgator.com is hosting us at the moment.

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Lobster
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Sep 2008, 03:35    Post subject:  

Quote:
That is the part that will become hairy


HairyWill is going to become part of the matrix, just for Puppy?
Crying or Very sad a worthy sacrifice

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tombh


Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Sep 2008, 05:01    Post subject:  

*lol* great pun work there Lobster!

Yes, if there's anything I can do to help at puppylinux.org with GIT/SVN I'm happy to oblige, there's loads of space, and bandwidth seems to be holding out well too, though yes it is in America.

So what's being suggested is that Puppy 'lives' on a GIT/SVN server? I guess that makes sense if Barry is no longer the custodian. Then live, up to the minute, snapshots can be accessed by all (who have access), any time from anywhere. But it will live as code, not binary? Will it have its own Makefiles!?

It struck me as odd having an entire operating system on GIT/SVN, "that's a bit much for a versioning system to handle, isn't it?" I thought, but then thinking about it, Puppy is actually smaller than a lot of applications!

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HairyWill


Joined: 26 May 2006
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Sep 2008, 05:11    Post subject:  

Agent Smith wrote:
Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program.

thorny isses here indeed.
How do other large distributed projects manage the trust issue?
How do I get commit access to mozilla or the kernel?
Here is a post from Linus discussing distributed development.

The release repository could be different to the development repository
this means that the development repository can be fairly relaxed about what is allowed to happen in development.

Migration from development to release decided by comittee vote or by single 'release engineer' these could have absolute power or be elected/rotated(this mitigates dependency on a few individuals on a regular basis.

Dev committee could have power to appoint/revoke leader, appoint new members, kick members.

New members coud be appointed after submitting several patches and require sponsorship by an existing committee member.

How does the committee start?
Barry appoints a single person.
Barry appoints a group.
Anyone that wants in (I think this is undesireable)

What is the minimum compentency required for membership.
There appears some tension between those that classify themselves as devs and not as to whether only devs decide on what gets released. Should the code monkeys / art team / hardware gurus rule?

Are the people that want power or responsibilty the best ones for the jo?
Do the people that can make puppy work want to work in this setup at all?
How many people are there that are capable of rebuilding puppy from scratch and I don't just mean building the unleashed tree (I haven't got that far yet; I've never really felt the need)

My understanding was that complicated build systems pulled souce in from a number of different repositories. For example running
svn checkout on pjsip pulls down the tagged release version from the portaudio subverson tree as well. I believe ths means that pjsip can upgrade the version of portaudio used simply by changing a tag in the pjsip repository.

more questions needed....

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Lobster
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PostPosted: Mon 08 Sep 2008, 08:12    Post subject:  

The community of script monkeys (and general purpose monkeys)
already exists:

http://puppylinux.org/wiki/archives/old-wikka-wikki/categorycommunity/puppy-community

People work individually or in a small group, communicating in a variety of ways

We are pretty wide rather than centralised. Makes us adaptable and flexible . . .
So the question is how we improve what we have?

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Last edited by Lobster on Sat 11 Oct 2008, 03:10; edited 1 time in total
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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 6270
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

PostPosted: Thu 11 Sep 2008, 01:56    Post subject:  

Quote:
But it will live as code, not binary? Will it have its own Makefiles!?
Well, what I was talking about would just be the Unleashed tree, so just binaries and scripts. Basically, it's what you get if you take every PetGet package in Barry's official repo, including the ones that make up Puppy itself, and extract them all to their own directories. Plus an extra directory with the scripts used to put them all together into Puppy.

A lot of manual work goes on at this level, that's why I think it needs to be in SVN/GIT.


I haven't used T2 yet, so I don't know what we'd need to do to support that. From what I understand it doesn't exactly spit out material directly usable in Puppy. You have to go through and manually cull out a lot of the fluff to get things stripped down as much as we use. Compiling everything from scratch is something that wouldn't be done nearly as often either.

T2 is used for the non-puppy-specific sources. Stuff like GTK, Xorg, etc. I think that the Puppy-specific projects that need compiling might be best to keep on SourceForge, and then incorporate specific binary releases of those into the overall unleashed tree SVN, along with any tweaks needed to make it play nicely (which could be submitted back to the developers of that app at SF in case they want to modify their "vanilla" release to have them in by default).

So with this model, whenever Zigbert gets around to creating Pkitchensink, he'd have the source version at SF. Every so often he'd have something he wants to release as a package, so he'd compile it and make a .pet, and also host that on SF. The people maintaining Puppy itself would then see the new version and decide they want it, so they'd download the most recent .pet, extract it, import it into the SVN, make any tweaks they need to make, and carry on. If they do anything important they may want to let Zigbert know.

Notes on which version of Pkitchensink was used would need to be included in the comment for that import. Also, doing the little tweaks needed is important to do only after importing it into the repo. That way it's imported in the initial vanilla state, and all modifications are logged by SVN. So we know exactly what has changed. Also, if we wind up in a situation where we need to produce all the changes we've made (somebody questions our GPL-ness or whatever), it could be done by just having SVN output a log (something like svn log <path>/Pkitchensink I believe).



I tried reading up on our embargo, but it wasn't clear to me whether this sort of endeavor would be covered by it. SourceForge involves optional money (donations, hiring people, etc.) and in some cases is used by actual companies. So they fall under it. But I don't know if we'd technically be breaking any kind of laws by letting Cubans or people in "terrorist countries" participate in Puppy, using a US hosted server. It would be really annoying if Uncle Sam came along and confiscated our server while we're in the middle of something, and even more so if he tried fining all the US members of the committee or whatever.

I'm probably just being paranoid. But things like the local laws of wherever the server is located are definitely something to consider. Also the laws of wherever the organization is based. Just in case somebody tries to raise a stink about something.



Quote:
Here is a post from Linus discussing distributed development.
Thanks, that helped somewhat. I'll need to actually install Git and poke around a bit before I understand it fully. I do think that if we went with Git, the structure I've been describing would need to be modified somewhat.

What he said about private branches sounds like one of the bigger pros for Git. That would make some things much cleaner I think.

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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Thu 09 Oct 2008, 16:03    Post subject:  

Hi guys, is this any use?

http://progetti.arstecnica.it/trac+darcs/

looks cool to me, but what do I know Confused Laughing

PS puppyluvr link, requesting terminal/gui downloader

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=33449

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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
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Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

PostPosted: Fri 10 Oct 2008, 20:15    Post subject:  

Quote:
PS puppyluvr link, requesting terminal/gui downloader
That isn't exactly relevant to this. We're discussing a different sort of "repo". The other sort is a whole 'nother can of worms, one that we'll definitely need to look into again before long, if Puppy is to get much more popular. Meanwhile Petch is a half-way answer.

Quote:
Hi guys, is this any use?

http://progetti.arstecnica.it/trac+darcs/
For the Unleashed-reqo, possibly. The thing you linked to, specifically, is a plugin to use Trac with a different version management software than either SVN or GIT. Trac itself seems to be generally for SVN. Whatever we wind up going with, we'll definitely want a good web-based frontend. It makes it easier for somebody to do a quick look at what's going on, or to reference a file in Puppy when not actually running Puppy, among other things.

I don't think it's relevant to the SourceForge SVN though, since I doubt we could install it there, and anyways SF does have a web interface already.




Somewhat back on topic (since the Unleashed-repo is technically off topic), I've started work on a volume setting program, mainly as a way to practice my GTK programming which I've almost never done. But I have also never liked any gui volume mixer that Puppy has used. Xtmix came closest. The only thing really worth using right now is alsamixer, which I do like.

Well, that part is mostly off topic. The on topic part follows:
I'm using the SourceForge SVN for this, and currently it holds my non-functional work-so-far. The functions for setting and reading volume are in, but not bound to anything because I haven't finished the widget yet. Have to write my own, since all of the default ones are worthless when it comes to volume setting. Sure, they seem like they'd work, and do, but are completely non-ergonomic and disgusting.

Besides which, they lack the retro feel I desire.


On cb88's request, I wrote a short guide to using it (the SourceForge SVN repo, that is). Also, I made and uploaded a .pet of SVN, because the one included in Puppy's devx file doesn't support SSL properly, which SourceForge requires. I haven't tried Puppy 4.1 yet, so maybe that one's does, I dunno.
http://www.puppylinux.org/wiki/how-tos/general/subversionguide

I also noticed that there are already some pages in there from the old wiki about an SVN repo that doesn't seem to be around anymore. Maybe those have info that could help people too.

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cb88


Joined: 28 Jan 2007
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Location: USA

PostPosted: Sat 11 Oct 2008, 16:49    Post subject:  

thanks pizzasgood...

didn't know cuba was blocked ....it is a tough issue there..

on what we should be uploading... drivers source etc... should just be uploaded to a regular server not a version control system

the only thing that should be in our version control system is the source for the unleashed system T2 profile and patches (for any external source... if we do you T2 we should actually submit these to their SVN)

and also any puppy related scripts

putting ALL the source in a version control system would be a massive pain and that would really be overkill

also I am pretty sure that we can actually use trac.... we would just need to install it on the source forge host... which i think you have access to pissazgood but i not 100% it is a standard ssh login we can set up a small webpage there as well

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cb88


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PostPosted: Sat 11 Oct 2008, 17:14    Post subject:  

when T2 8.0 comes out... I will upload the T2 base to the SVN so we can work on it and keep it up to date

I was able to install cygwin here at home yesterday so i was able to get the svn downloaded so i can get a little bit done on that front I still have practically no free time though

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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4759
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Sat 11 Oct 2008, 18:13    Post subject: SVN  

Pizzasgood wrote:
On cb88's request, I wrote a short guide to using it (the SourceForge SVN repo, that is). Also, I made and uploaded a .pet of SVN, because the one included in Puppy's devx file doesn't support SSL properly, which SourceForge requires. I haven't tried Puppy 4.1 yet, so maybe that one's does, I dunno.
http://www.puppylinux.org/wiki/how-tos/general/subversionguide

Thanks for the SVN guide (specific to Puppy Linux and sourceforge).

The old SVN page in the wiki refers to rarsa's initiative. We are of course continuing with SVN but now at sourceforge. (Link is given here to help new readers.)

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