[INSERT] kills Seamonkey when posting to forum <KLUDGED>

[otropogo]

I started this thread on July 9th, having reported the problem even earlier elsewhere.

Nothing but kludges have ever been suggested, and no developer has shown any interest in fixing the problem in software or even discussing the feasibility of such a fix.

In the meantime, I've lost dozens of hours of input because of this stupid software glitch, which is incurred all too often on my keyboard as the [INSERT] key is bordered by the [BACKSPACE] key on the left, and the [DELETE] below.

My worst single loss of input, moreover, occurred recently, when I opted to use one of the suggested kludges - to compose my input in a text editor and then paste into Seamonkey.

I entered text into Geany for several hours, and when I minimized the Geany window to look at something else on my desktop, Geany shut down without warning, and without saving my input.

So now, after two months of waiting in vain for a real solution, or even a promise of one, I've decided on a hardware kludge that simply works - I've removed the [INSERT] key from my keyboard, so I can no longer accidentally kill Seamonkey and all my input.

[muggins]

otropogo,

I don't know whether you would consider remapping the insert key a real solution, or a kludge, but xmodmap allows you to remap keyboard keys. I uploaded XKeyCaps, an xmodmap frontend, in this thread.

[KF6SNJ]

I guess my first question is:

What version of puppy are you using?

My second question is then:

What version of seamonkey?


I ask as I am using the beta of ChurchPup 3.01 with SeaMonkey 1.1.2 and I can hit the INS key all day long and nothing happens. Such being the case, I am trying to understand what is happening and why. Once we can clear those hurdles, we can hopefully know how to proceed.

[otropogo]

What version of puppy are you using?

Puppy 4.0 Kernel 2.6.21

What version of seamonkey?

1.1.8

I ask as I am using the beta of ChurchPup 3.01 with SeaMonkey 1.1.2 and I can hit the INS key all day long and nothing happens.

You can't stop progress, I guess....

[otropogo]

otropogo,

I don't know whether you would consider remapping the insert key a real solution, or a kludge, but xmodmap allows you to remap keyboard keys. I uploaded XKeyCaps, an xmodmap frontend, in this thread.

Hi muggins,

Nothing wrong with kludges, especially when there's no prospect of a native solution. I'll definitely have a look at your remapping solution.

Removing the [INSERT] key hasn't been much of a hardship for me, as I rarely use it. I just wish I'd done it weeks ago.

But thanks for the suggestion. There may be others who will find it much superior to the hardware fix I chose.

[Flash]

KF6SNJ, what happens if you hit the insert key while composing a post in this forum? That's when it has happened to me, and under no other conditions except once when I was composing a Yahoo e-mail.

It seems to me that Otropogo has described two unrelated problems. One is that SeaMonkey sometimes closes under certain conditions when he hits the insert key, and the other is that Geany closes when he minimizes it. My guess is that those problems can't be reliably repeated, which is why no one has found their cause or a solution yet.

[otropogo]

KF6SNJ, what happens if you hit the insert key while composing a post in this forum? That's when it has happened to me, and under no other conditions except once when I was composing a Yahoo e-mail.

You're right about the circumstance of the insert key closing Seamonkey. It happens when entering text in the forum post window.
You're mistaken about it being unrepeatable, because several people have reported exactly the same effect in this thread.

In fact, it's also been reported that hitting [PRINT SCREEN] does the same thing. But surely you can test it for yourself. Enter some text in a post window with Seamonkey and then hit the [INSERT] key.

It seems to me that Otropogo has described two unrelated problems. One is that SeaMonkey sometimes closes under certain conditions when he hits the insert key, and the other is that Geany closes when he minimizes it. My guess is that those problems can't be reliably repeated, which is why no one has found their cause or a solution yet.

The problem with Geany occurred only once, and I mentioned it in passing because it was one of the kludges suggested to avoid the [INSERT] crash.

To depict the two issues as equally unreproducible is ridiculous. Note that there's no mention of Geany in either the subject line or the subtitle of the thread.

The reason no one has found a cause or a solution for the [INSERT] key problem is certainly NOT because it "can't be reliably repeated".

[otropogo]

I've edited the thread title and subtitle a second time in order to make the nature of the problem quite clear. My apologies to KF6SNJ and anyone else who may have been confused by my first effort and my inadequate response to KF6SNJ's questions.

On reviewing the thread, it becomes apparent that it took a short while to establish exactly which key it was that kills Seamonkey, and under what circumstances. And it's clear that someone coming upon the thread more than a month later is unlikely to read the whole thing to get to the nitty gritty.

So I've used the limited space of the title and subtitle fields to remedy this as best I could.

[Flash]

...You're right about the circumstance of the insert key closing Seamonkey. It happens when entering text in the forum post window.
You're mistaken about it being unrepeatable, because several people have reported exactly the same effect in this thread.

It seems to me that Otropogo has described two unrelated problems. One is that SeaMonkey sometimes closes under certain conditions when he hits the insert key, and the other is that Geany closes when he minimizes it. My guess is that those problems can't be reliably repeated, which is why no one has found their cause or a solution yet.

The reason no one has found a cause or a solution for the [INSERT] key problem is certainly NOT because it "can't be reliably repeated".

By repeatable I meant that it can be repeated on command, not that it has happened to someone else. Trying to find the cause and fix the problem is a hit or miss proposition if you can't make the problem happen whenever you want. Perhaps a better word than repeatable is duplicatable, but that word doesn't exactly trip off the tongue. Rather, it sort of stumbles.

Anyway, I meant to add something to the report, not get bogged down in a debate over semantics. My computer has been making squeaking noises for several days, and this morning the hard disk drive failed. Since Puppy now has no swap memory, it only reports 72 M free in the little window instead of 560 M. SeaMonkey has taken to closing without warning. It's done it twice so far this morning. Just another data point, for anyone who's trying to figure out the problem.

[otropogo]

...
By repeatable I meant that it can be repeated on command, not that it has happened to someone else. ...

You yourself reported earlier in this thread that you had exactly the same experience as I reported (Seamonkey closing when hitting [INSERT] when text is entered in the forum's post window).

Are you saying now that you can't replicate this? Have you tried?

I can replicate the problem every single time. How many successive replications do you require to consider a BUG "repeatable"?

Furthermore, your suggestion that like reports of a BUG from various respondents has nothing to do with "repeatability" is utter nonsense.

Any report of repeatability that issues from only one source can, and will be, dismissed as either user error or deceit.

Replication of scientific research results doesn't mean that the original researcher can repeat the experiment with the same results. It means other researchers can obtain these results independently by following the protocols of the original researcher.


So the fact that other users on other machines with other configurations have reported experiencing exactly the same problem is ESSENTIAL. And this requirement has been met by posts from various users, including YOU.

Kindly stop trying to sabotage this thread ...

[Sit Heel Speak]

Not the solution, but perhaps a clue which will contribute to finding it:

As otropogo reports: in 4.1-alpha-6, booted from an ATA disk, frugal install...hitting the Insert key in a Seamonkey reply window on this forum, makes Seamonkey vanish. Every. Single. Time.

However: the 4.1-alpha-6 SCSI-1 kernel, booted from an SCSI disk, frugal install, on the same machine...is bulletproof. I can hit the Insert key at will, til my finger gets sore, no problem.

My thinking now is, there is a conflict between the ATA / IDE driver and...the keyboard driver?

Perhaps a buffer "fencepost error" in the way Seamonkey handles the Insert key?

Later today I'll try booting the 4.1-alpha-6 SCSI-1 kernel, frugal, from an ATA disk and see what happens.

[Sit Heel Speak]

Hmm. Curious and curious-er.

Substituting the SCSI-1 kernel for the regular one, when booted from an ATA disk, frugal, does not cure the Insert key problem.

The SCSI-1 kernel only solves the Insert key problem when booted from an SCSI disk, doesn't matter whether frugal or full install.

There is a separate problem, when autoscroll is enabled, that very often middle-mousebutton-click-on-tab to delete the tab causes Seamonkey to vanish, just like the Insert key problem. Using the SCSI-1 kernel on an ATA frugal Puppy 4.1-alpha-6 does indeed banish this autoscroll-tabclick problem. But not the Insert-key-in-forum-reply-window gremlin.

[Flash]

Well that is curious. After my (PATA) HD died yesterday I took it out. Puppy showed about 70 MB of memory "free" and SeaMonkey shut down several times while it was just sitting there doing nothing. It never did that before the HD quit and took 500 MB of swap memory with it.

This morning I added another 256 MB stick of RAM, for a total of 512 MB. Now Puppy shows over 200 MB of memory "free," and SeaMonkey has not shut down all day. It would appear that Puppy needs more than 256 MB of RAM to run SeaMonkey without a hard disk drive.

Otropogo, you were right; SeaMonkey shuts down every time I hit the Insert key, as long as the focus is in the forum's compose window. I tried every key on my keyboard. The only one that causes SeaMonkey to shut down is the Insert key.

[Sit Heel Speak]

Perhaps I should here note, that my test machine has 2 GB of RAM. Freememapplet shows a minimum of 400 MB free, when booted frugal from SCSI, and 931 MB free when booted frugal from ATA.. Either installation is using a 512 MB swap partition as well.

My point is: lack of memory and/or disk space is not an issue with the Insert key Seamonkey vanishment problem, here.

[Sit Heel Speak]

Would everyone who is experiencing this problem do me a favor: power off, unplug the secondary IDE cable from your mainboard, and reboot.

Does the Insert key Seamonkey vanishment problem, still exist?

[Flash]

The insert key causes SeaMonkey to close, but only in the Puppy forum compose window. In addition, SeaMonkey sometimes spontaneously closes if I'm running with only one 256 MB stick of RAM. Whether the two are related I have no idea. It seems reasonable to me to suppose they might be, so I include them both.

Can anyone recommend another phpBB forum I could join, to see if the Insert key closes SeaMonkey there?

[otropogo]

Would everyone who is experiencing this problem do me a favor: power off, unplug the secondary IDE cable from your mainboard, and reboot.

Does the Insert key Seamonkey vanishment problem, still exist?

After strenuous efforts and extreme danger to my hard drive and cables, due to the micromanaged cable routing and bay configuration of my Dell 4300 clamshell tower, I finally managed to disconnect the secondary ide cable from the Motherboard, plug the primary cable into the DVD drive, and boot Puppy 4.0 as requested.

And, I'm sorry to report, the answer is YES. Hitting Insert still closes Seamonkey instantly when in the forum's post window.

BTW - I also tested for this defect with my laptop, running Seamonkey 1.1.2 under Puppy 3.01 Retro, and in that configuration, hitting [INSERT] (or rather, [INS] does NOT close Seamonkey.

[Sit Heel Speak]

OK, thanks for the trial. I asked for it because I discovered that 4.1-alpha-6, scsi-1 kernel, booted frugal from an scsi disk...does have the problem, if I connect my DVD writer to the IDE secondary. Disconnect the secondary entirely, the problem goes away.

My homebuilt has a vintage-2003 Supermicro X5DPE-G2 mainboard. If memory serves, your Dell 4300 has an Intel mainboard of similar vintage. I wonder if your, my, and Flash's three mainboards have the same keyboard controller. Clearly this problem is not very widespread, otherwise the complaint volume would be louder.

Bedtime now; I'll check our keyboard controllers' identities tomorrow. Also will conduct experiments with other devices (e.g. disk drives) on the secondary channel.

[otropogo]

Have just tried Opera in Muppy-Live (using it now), and hitting [INSERT] while text is entered in this post window does only what's expected.

Zooming the display while in the forum works more nicely in Opera too. I find 150% zoom quite comfortable for both reading and entering posts on my 19" monitor.

[otropogo]

Have just tried the [INSERT] key in Seamonkey under Muppy 084 LiveCD, while entering text here. Although the look is different (no search option at the URL field, for instance), the version number is the same - 1.1.8, yet hitting the killer key does nothing.

So presumably the bug is in Puppy, not Seamonkey.

Haven't had any developer feedback on whether this bug has been carried on into 4.1 or 4.1 Retro.

Would be a shame to have to live with it until Puppy 4.2.