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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Hardware » Networking » Dialup
The LINUX BARRIER: Dial Up Modems
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Flash
Official Dog Handler


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 10948
Location: Arizona USA

PostPosted: Wed 19 Oct 2005, 09:20    Post subject: Re: D-link find Linux link here  

aahhaaa wrote:
...But not everybody is a computer enthusiast, just like not everybody is a car enthusiast, climbing under the hood of their car every weekend. That doesn't mean they are dumb, mebbe only that they use their computer for daily work and are more interested in that work than the computer itself. This is the hold Windows has on the OS market, imho.

Exactly put.

aahhaaa wrote:
...I think a solution for most desktop dial-up users is absurdly simple. PCI modem cards are cheap & easy to install. If the Linux community would focus on one card and get it up to Plug & Play in a generic Linux handshake... the maker would sell a lot of cards- to the average user who'd rather just install a supported card than suffer through hours of decyphering an unknown language. It could even ship with a distro or two! Very Happy (Who's got China's phone number?)

For laptops & wireless folks, perhaps a well-heeled distro like Ubuntu could impliment a real solution...

Hmm, see my post here.
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aahhaaa


Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 341
Location: Lower Michigan, North America

PostPosted: Wed 19 Oct 2005, 09:47    Post subject:  

Flash- good thinking on that post. Hope more people join into that thread.
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sling-shot


Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 109
Location: India

PostPosted: Wed 19 Oct 2005, 09:48    Post subject: D-Link internal modem with CD  

We bought a D-Link internal modem for our home computer which came with a CD containing software (drivers+shareware)
Now the booklet says it supports only Windows but in the CD there is a directory which contains Linux drivers.
There are some files there :
hsflin-<some numbers separated by dots>.rpm
hsflin-<some numbers separated by dots>.deb
hsflin-<some numbers separated by dots>.tar.gz
install [a text file]

The install files gives instructions as to what to do regarding installing the modem. There are 3 sets of instructions for rpm and another and the last set for .tar.gz
The last set uses the "make install" command.
Now i could extract the .tar.gz as per instructions given into its own directory. But the next command did not work "make install" Bash says "make command not found" or something like that.

With this info can anybody help me?

Puppy 1.0.5 LiveCD BootUp option i select 3 (Harddisk) pup001 hda7
Intel Celeron 733MHz
D-Link internal modem (works in Win98)

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rarsa


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 3053
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Wed 19 Oct 2005, 11:50    Post subject:  

aahhaaa,

Puppy autodetects many modems, and network devices 'out of the box', As I said before, It includes the most common to keep it small. So most of the users will have a good startup experience.

The same happens with video drivers, mouse, keyboard, printers, etc.

For most devices it wil be seameless, from the rest most will be possible (through downloading or installing something extra) and of course there will be the odd one that's not supported at all.

In your case there isn't even a barrier. You can ask for the CDs from Barry. It includes all the unleashed packages so you would not need to download the modem driver.

I still don't see an alternative. Or you get all the drivers at once in a big download or you get a small download and have to go get the odd driver or you request for the CD's on the mail.

Do you see a feasible alternative to solve the conundrum?
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puppian


Joined: 18 Jul 2005
Posts: 538
Location: PuppyLand

PostPosted: Wed 19 Oct 2005, 13:36    Post subject:  

rarsa wrote:
It includes the most common to keep it small. So most of the users will have a good startup experience.

The problem is, what are the MOST common? (I would add MOST IMPORTANT too. Internet connection is obviously very important.)

Btw, I think the most important thing for an OS is that it WORKS, i.e. all important hardware connected works (and it's more important than "to be small", I'm not saying that the latter is not important thou, it's the second most important Wink). If we can have a Chubby Puppy with Open Office, I don't see why we can't have a Chubby Puppy that all hardware will work.

In other words, the aim of an OS should be: ALL of the users should have a good startup experience.

rarsa wrote:
For most devices it wil be seameless, from the rest most will be possible (through downloading or installing something extra) and of course there will be the odd one that's not supported at all.

I think M$ has given a thorough thought on that and has come to a solution: include the 'basic' drivers for most devices. You may need to download the drivers from the manufacturer's site for the best performance. So something "extra" needs to be downloaded or installed ONLY when he/she wants better performance. This way few people complain that a device doesn't work in Windoz (also, they don't need to "climbing under the hood of their car every weekend", everything works out of the box Wink), and that's a major reason why most people have Windoz as their major OS instead of Linux. In fact, puppy has done a great job when compared to other distros. Everything here works except the modem. So why should modem be an exception?

rarsa wrote:
I still don't see an alternative. Or you get all the drivers at once in a big download or you get a small download and have to go get the odd driver or you request for the CD's on the mail.

We have smart puppies here right? If we can have Puppy which is only 60M as compared to other Linux distro which are 600M+, I say why not "get all the drivers at once in a small to medium download"?

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Flash
Official Dog Handler


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 10948
Location: Arizona USA

PostPosted: Wed 19 Oct 2005, 15:22    Post subject:  

How about this: a live CD (or more probably DVD) with the source code for several different kernels, every application, library and driver known to Linux, and a (compiled) wizard.

You boot the CD, which loads the wizard, which determines whether the CD has drivers for the hardware on the computer and asks which kernel and applications you'd like to use. Then it takes this info, compiles an optimum OS for that computer and burns it to a bootable CD or installs it to the hard drive.

It sounds doable, but not easy. Anybody up for it? Laughing
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rarsa


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 3053
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Wed 19 Oct 2005, 16:38    Post subject:  

You just read my mind, Flash.

This project was in my Todo list.

I'm working on a draft for the wireless wizard and that was one of the solutions I was planning to explore.

I started doing some experiments to add files to the CD. There is another thread where that was resolved using the Multisession CD/DVD. I don't know if that solution will allow to create a non multisession CD image.

Patk was going to send me the Kanotix HW detection scripts for me to study.

Too bad I don't have more time. so if someone else starts the project that would be great. I actually asked Barry for priorities and those projects were there. http://www.murga.org/~puppy/viewtopic.php?t=2796&highlight=.

I am currently trying to get the project I was working on stable (dynamic menus) and start with the wireless. Of course building on what BladeHunter, BlackAddler et all have implemented. None of these projects are a one person's task (unless they are retired).
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aahhaaa


Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 341
Location: Lower Michigan, North America

PostPosted: Wed 19 Oct 2005, 20:37    Post subject:  

rarsa- lemme say first, I fully support PUPPY, and for many reasons. Also, I hear your points and in the abstract agree with them. Smile

I was astounded that Puppy set up everything on my non-standard ITX Epia. I'm not griping about this breakthru distro. Not at all.

that said... how old is Linux now?

I was trying to give a sense of the frustration that a basic function- one which determines whether you can communicate, or get needed downloads - is still so tangled in obscurity and kludging. It's easier to set up the DVD burner.

Take a look at the 'working modems' listed here in the wiki at:
http://www.goosee.com/puppy/wikka/PuppyHardware

these are the only internal ones listed that aren't PCMCIA or ISA:
Actiontec V.90 PCI AKA IBM V.90 PCI.
Actiontec 56K internal PCI Call Waiting Modem
Diamond SupraExpress 336 internal
3Com Megahertz 56K Global Modem pc card, model 3CCM156
1646T00 REA 12 99035 4903835 96 Lucent - - an older PCI modem that is very fast

so I went to eBay...
the Call-waiting 56K Actiontec is listed maybe - the listings refer to a Dell 528UU & V.90- not enough info to be sure what's what.
the 3Com is not PCI, its PCMCIA.
the Diamond 336 is not currently listed
on the last- which sounds the best-
* 7 items found for REA 12
* 48 items found for 12 Lucent
* 210 items found for 12 96
* 1 items found for 99035
12 Lucent give a bunch of telephones, nary a modem in the bunch.

now add in some of the wiki 'working modem' user comments, which I think would initially faze most anybody:
I had to clear config data in BIOS before it worked.
You only need to go through the puppy modem wizard to set it up.
Quick recap: Using the puppy modem wizard froze my system, and it could only be rescued via a hard reboot.
for getting Linmodems working with Linux (not easy)
http://www.linmodems.org/∞

I'm not saying that every driver in existence should be in PUPPY; or that all the VoIP, FAX, etc features should be supported right from the first LiveCD session.

I am saying that according to LINUX COUNTER, there are 29 million people using LINUX. http://counter.li.org/estimates.php

One would think that any modem manufacturer would cater to that number. That they don't may be due to the 'registered driver' hold that MS has on any hardware maker- & the same lockout deal was pulled on the Netscape browser.

According to PC World, in 2000 there were a quarter of a billion people still using dial-up. That's 40% of all net users.
http://pcworld.about.com/news/May022001id48467.htm

I'd guess that the majority of these people are still using their ol' steam computers, for which PUPPY is perfect. So why let the modem stump them?

It's time to fix this problem- somehow. Maybe the tradeoff isn't 60M becoming 80M, its 2000 users becoming 200,000 users... Very Happy
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bobwal


Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 7
Location: Queensland Australia

PostPosted: Thu 20 Oct 2005, 00:51    Post subject: The LINUX BARRIER: Dial Up Modems  

aahhaaa said
Quote:
afterthought- if one of you guys that really knows what you are doing would put half-height & full-height PCI winmodem cards on eBay- with a working driver setup disk for Puppy- I'd buy one of each!


I'de be in that. I could get my User Group members to buy these much easier than to pay out $90.00 to $120.00 for an external dialup modem.

What you say makes a great deal of sense. I read recently - on the Firefox site I think
Quote:
Microsoft has never won a war in development against anyone. But it proved to be a master of Marketing. Dont Repeat The History. Don't Downplay The Marketing.


Successful marketing relies on a product that works for Everyone. Linux must have the same support and choice of Net access that Win has.

Older users don't want to program or use spreadsheets etc. And older users are becoming a significant part of the Market

They want easy, reliable and cheap access to the Net so they can exchange pics, chat with distant friends and chase up their ancestors!

If we can't help them do this, they will stay with Win.
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Sage

Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 4776
Location: GB

PostPosted: Thu 20 Oct 2005, 01:39    Post subject:  

If you want an all singing-dancing Linux DVD with nearly every option/driver known to man on it - Hr dr prof Klaus has already provided it. But Puppy is a very different animal! DSL used Knoppix detection to provide a credit card 50M live CD, whilst BarryK's intention was to redesign a very low inventory, backwards compatible distro with appeal to neophytes. All are successful in their own ways. The problem lies in catering for the huge array of HW, vast armies of putative converts and battling the beast of Remond. Not all things in life are possible. The main issue for all Linux distros remains the yawning communications gap between the gurus and users. This is gradually being address, although many penguin professionals are unable to comprehend that regular folk are incapable of understanding their technospeak, issue console commands, remaster CD s, etc. so are totally dependent on clever guys like Barry, John and colleagues to provide the goods required. For users, stepping outside the box is not an option. Linux drivers for modems with an incomplete complement of components and designed for Windows coding is a bridge too far. Although it presents an interesting intellectual challenge for the cognoscenti, regular users should avoid wasting time and effort, possibly cash too, and buy any external serial modem, as advised above.
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aahhaaa


Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 341
Location: Lower Michigan, North America

PostPosted: Thu 20 Oct 2005, 09:01    Post subject:  

Sage-
why does wanting the existing modem to work always turn into discussing a kitchen-sink distro?
If the Linux community had real working relationships with the hardware makers, how long do you think it would take for them to write a generic* driver? a week? a day?

Whole countries have adopted Linux as their standard platform. What are they doing about the dial-up problem?

Linux doesn't compete with Windows- it mostly competes with itself.

Going back to the car analogy, in the early days there were a bunch of outfits making expensive complicated horseless carriages for the rich.
Ford made a simple sturdy vehicle for everyone else.

PUPPY has a good chance to become our Model T, the distro that works on every computer, unless some other distro solves this problem first.

* by generic, I mean a standard open source driver protocol that modem cards must include to be Linux compliant...
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Sage

Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 4776
Location: GB

PostPosted: Thu 20 Oct 2005, 10:59    Post subject:  

Unfortunately, it isn't like that. Winmodems aren't really modems at all; indeed, another name has them as 'software modems'. They just have a few extra HW components on a card that, in themselves, do not constitute a 'modem'. Each chip manufacturer will devise unique software to enable their own Winmodem chipset to access the (unpublished!!) 'doze APIs; they need these to work. ipso facto, there is no 'universal driver' for these devices. It is only by dint of clever, maybe even a little reverse, SW engineering that some folks make these abominations function under Linux, but every one is different. Indeed, there is one company in the list that specialises in intercepting Lucent Winmodem calls, with the company's approval, and diverting them to penguin-speak. But, they want real money for their troubles.
Like I keep saying - save time, save effort, save money : buy an external serial modem! I could spell that out in caps, if you like?! The little lights also help to identify any rogue incoming, as well as routine problems, if that isn't an oxymoron.
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rarsa


Joined: 29 May 2005
Posts: 3053
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Thu 20 Oct 2005, 14:19    Post subject:  

Quote:
why does wanting the existing modem to work always turn into discussing a kitchen-sink distro?
Because that's the reality wheter you can accept it or not.
Quote:
If the Linux community had real working relationships with the hardware makers, how long do you think it would take for them to write a generic* driver? a week? a day?
Remember that in the minds of the traditional companies, Closed = captive audience, brand recognition.

The modem 'issue' has been like that always, actually it's like that for windows. If Microsoft hasn't been able to do it, what makes you think that Linux can in the short term. As I said before Microsoft solved it by market forces. Vendors create Windows drivers so they can sell.

Your question is highly rethorical as if you were asking: Why can't people just talk their problems and mediate so we wouldn't have wars?

An excelent question. A very easy solution. A very different reality.
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jcoder24


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 601
Location: Barbados

PostPosted: Thu 20 Oct 2005, 15:05    Post subject:  

Sage wrote:

Like I keep saying - save time, save effort, save money : buy an external serial modem! I could spell that out in caps, if you like?! The little lights also help to identify any rogue incoming, as well as routine problems, if that isn't an oxymoron.


It's not as simple as saying buy an external modem. Where I'm from a winmodem is around $12-15 US, whereas an external modem is at least $75US.

Why would a user (esp. a non-technical one) want to switch to an unfamiliar OS, spend $75US and then try to figure out how to install it and get on the internet?

Unlike other newbie issues (which could prob. be solved with the help of an internet connection) most users would not want to be without internet for days while trying to get a dialup connection working.

I do think there is a need to have relatively inexpensive and reliable dialup alternatives to external modems. This is part of the reason I've invested considerable time in compiling conexant hsf and hcf drivers although I no longer use dialup.

Puppy has quite a number of features working for it that can make PCs more cheaply available, can convert more M$ users to linux, can discourage dumping older PCs,.... All of this is done while still providing a positive user experience that Mr. Gates would be envious of. Why should we not try to improve this with better modem support out-of-the-box?

~~~~~~~~

I'm hoping to create a puplet with ALL of the modem (and hopefully wireless) drivers that currently work in puppy. I would have to sacrifice some apps to keep the size around 50MB but they can added once connected to the internet. I was waiting for 1.0.6 before starting the project but it seems like i may need to start sooner.

Last edited by jcoder24 on Thu 20 Oct 2005, 17:38; edited 2 times in total
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sling-shot


Joined: 19 Aug 2005
Posts: 109
Location: India

PostPosted: Thu 20 Oct 2005, 15:50    Post subject:  

[jcoder24]

Fantastic!
Now i had seen the post about your drivers but did not understand if it suited me. Today i found out that my modem is using software/built by the company called Conexant. So may it will work for me.
But you have mentioned that it may be dangerous to use it. Does it mean it will cause permanent damage to my harddisk/filesystem (windows) if there is some malfunction or just that it may destroy Puppy settings (if so that will be ok)???

The financial implications are very much true.

And whatever i have learnt about computers is on the internet. In a setup like my neighbourhood where nobody knows what Linux is i cant get any help except on the net. So connecting to net is imperative with whatever i have.

Yes. your idea about sacrificing some programmes is good. For eg. a Gnumeric or gxine can be sacrificed (or may be some of the duplicate programmes) in favour of a system that will just work first.

I would rather have a Puppy that will connect to the internet on its own and get those apps rather than reboot into Win98 each time i want to do something on the net (including this forum)

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