Puppy Linux Discussion Forum

[nap44]

Hello,

I’ve been following the development of Linux distros for as while now, particularly those distros that run from a CD drive, with a view to changing over completely from XP.

My equipment is fairly standard. I have a 3yo P4 with 1gig ram and a Gigabyte GA=8S661FXM-775 motherboard, 160gig HDD and an external 250gig usb HDD. In addition, there are 4xUSB sticks and a 19” Viewsonic monitor. A Logitech Quickcam family webcam and a Canon Pixma MP160 printer completes the setup. All this runs happily using XP.

My requirements for a working environment are the usual candidates. Broadband Internet access. Printing ability. WebCam. Word processor and spreadsheet. Video/DVD and music playing tools. Photo viewing and manipulation. In other words just the mainline things a user expects to have and to work with minimum user intervention.

All of these components of course are included in one way or another in the various Linux distros. But whether they work or not is another question. My experience is that some do and some don’t. When they don’t, it is a nightmare to configure them.

It is a fact that the majority of computer users worldwide use Windows. Therefore, Linux programs need to interface seemlessly with files that Windows users use. In my opinion not enough effort is given by developers to ensure that this happens. Someone needs to sit down and think through the scenario. What happens if a windows user sends me a file in this format or that format. Can the user of my distro open it without resorting to a complicated process of downloading and installing a package simply to open the file and then to be confronted by popups warning of missing dependencies. And TEST it to make sure it works before releasing the distro.

The distro I have been mainly interested in is the Puppy line as it has many features that others omit. With this in mind, I have been trying out all the Puppy variations that developers have contributed. It must be pointed out that I have absolutely no programming experience, just an interest in using computers in a day to day working environment.

My dabbles with Linux, however, have been the most frustrating bitter/sweet experiences I can remember. And this applies to all Linux distros not just Puppy, but I’ll use Puppy as the example, as it is the one I have spent most time examining.

Let me say that of ALL the distros I have downloaded and tried, not one, I repeat, not a single one, has enabled me to get all of my equipment working satisfactorily. I get the impression that many of the developers out there, as smart as they are, have lost the plot. There seems to be a disconnect between what a user is expecting to have and what the developers design. There is a lot of emphasis on kernel design and modification and themes and colours and icons etc but the substance of what a user wants is neglected.

Let me explain using the latest CuPup 2.17.v2 as an example. I’m not picking on this one particularly, just the fact it is the latest release I have downloaded.

This distro boots very quickly and displays a very nice desktop with plenty of equally nice alternatives. Programs are quick to load and as in all Puppies has a very snappy feel. This one I think is the best I have tried. And that’s where my experience turned sour.


Firstly, the Puppy Drive Mounter failed to recognise one of my USB sticks but MUT saw them all. This has been mentioned many times in the forums, so how can a new release still contain this inconsistency. Is the new version built on a flawed base? And why can’t an option be included to mount all drives on boot. Other distros do it, so why not Puppy. I know for some it is seen as bad practice, but not for me. I just want all my drives recognised at boot up. I’m sure many others are as frustrated about this as I am. And while I’m on a roll, why can’t the num lock be turned on by default.

Next, printer setup. I see a lot of comment on the forums about how easy it is to set up a printer. This is simply not true. It might be ok for an old model printer, but for any newer versions it is a nightmare, unless your model is included in the Cups listing. Now I know manufacturers are reluctant to provide drivers, but the Cups listing in the latest CuPup has an old listing that is several years out of date. Even Barry Kauler in his latest Dingo release has managed to update the Cups version, but it is still not the latest, as other Linux distros have my model included and Barry’s does not. Again, why throw a new release out there and include old data. It is a mismatch and indicates to me a lack of attention to detail.

I see this in many new releases. Problems that have been fixed in a past release are again introduced in a newer version, or things that previously worked no longer do so. The forum has many posts alluding to this problem.

After failing to get my printer to work, I turned my attention to video conferencing. I use Skype under windows, so I loaded Skype-1.3.0.5.3.pup. It seemed to install ok but there was no message at the end to indicate it had installed correctly. So I went to a terminal and typed Skype which started the program and allowed me to log in. So far so good. Clicked the echo test and the Skype screen disappeared, leaving only the terminal window open. In this window I noticed beside the cursor, the words “segmentation fault”, whatever that means. So thinking it might be something to do with a warm restart, I went to the menu and clicked Restart X server. At this point my screen went blank and hung the computer. I had to reboot from the reset button. Again why isn’t Skype or Ekiga included either as part of the package or as a download and tested to make sure they work. I’ve tried Ekiga on other packages and get stuck on the “failed security check” message, which I can’t see anyone has resolved. So scratch printing and video mail.

Next I was able to see that wine was included in this version, at last. But I’ve never been able to get say an excel spreadsheet to work in wine. Probably my lack of knowledge on how to do it. There is much discussion in the forums but no clear step by step instructions, just links or referrals to other snip bits of information. All very confusing. I did change the “run with” command to try IMG burn and it opened it ok as expected but in the dialogue window the last line said “No devices detected”. So scratch that too.

And finally, after getting crankier and crankier, I clicked on a jpg image. The image opened up in a giant window but there were no tools to reduce it or manipulate it in any way. This just tells me that this aspect was never tested before release as it would have been seen how lax it was to include this type of imaging package in the distro. Where is the great Fotox package that Barry K has in his versions. Mov files in Gxine were jerky in playback also.

Lastly, on shutting down without saving does not allow you to remove the CD from the drive. The screen just went blank and was not responsive. I had to switch my computer off at the powerpoint.

If anyone wants to see how a complicated operating system can be made to look and work simply, I encourage a look at the magnificent layout of Linpus Linux 9.4 light, a Taiwanese distribution. Unfortunately, it too has some problems, like outdated printer lists and Ekiga that has the “failed security” message, but I think it may have to be purchased to update the program and eliminate these problems.

In summary, I could write a book on the problems with any Linux versions. I believe it will never become mainstream in it’s current form. It seems to be just an experimental tool for developers, with each trying to outdo the other with features that are cosmetic and don’t address the underlying basic user issues.

As I mentioned before, Not one instance of Linux has provided me with a workable machine, setup to do the things I perform daily. Windows XP on the other hand has not failed once to install and run a program. As much as we criticise Microsoft, they do provide a stable and easy to use system which just works. I’m very disappointed that Linux has been unkind to me as I have been promoting it to my friends. However on sampling, they have encountered the very same roadblocks that I have and to a man have ditched it and returned to the comfort of Windows. One can only hope Linux will eventually be as good and just work.



Cheers,
RC

[Sage]

An excellent example of life's biggest lesson: learning to ask the right questions.
Still true today that those taking the king's shilling stand a good chance of getting shot!
Begin by asking why all the HW runs in XP?!
At the end of the day, folks who bolster criminal companies deserve to be locked away themselves. Better they send their $500 to charity.

[oblivious]

I thought that what this guy has to say was interesting and agree with a lot of it: Linux is NOT Windows
http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

The free distros are not consumer products - the developer has done something to suit their own needs. It's great if it also suits somebody else, if it doesn't suit you, well you've got what you've paid for. (If you buy a jumper at the shops, you get to try it on, choose your colour and take it back if there's something wrong with it - it's a consumer product. If your nanna knits you a jumper and it's too big or it's a lurid orange which you don't like, you've got 2 choices - wear it anyway, or don't. Linux is nanna's jumper - she might have come up with a nice aran that fits, or it might be some fairisle in pink and purple that you don't like and think is better suited to polishing the car. You can buy a pattern for a jumper you'd like, buy the wool and pay nanna to knit you another one, but you don't get to criticize her choice of gift).

Much of whether your system works with existing equipment is just luck. I have a HP printer, which worked with all distros I've looked at. I've got a new printer, and it's drivers aren't in there. So, the experience of someone with my other printer is "oh great, it just works", with my new printer "oh, what a pain, what do I do now?". Everything works in this computer, on my new computer lots doesn't work. You'd like automount, I wouldn't. Everybody has different equipment and preferences. You can't really expect them to be catered for by everybody (and windows hasn't catered for everything in vista, and what is catered for has been achieved by dictating to hardware manufacturers)

What you want is available to you - pay someone to set up and maintain a system for you. Buy equipment known to work. Or, learn linux and be in the position to fix, tweak and develop yourself. Alternatively, one of the paid distros might offer what you want, as you'd be entitled to support. (Have you looked at Freespire? That seems to have everything but the kitchen sink, you can get the paid version which presumably comes with support. )

[muggins]

[Lobster]

Muggins try sweet banana, raisins and cinnamon with honey in your porridge - Just had that - choke free . . .

[WhoDo]

[muggins]

I was windows-free for the last few years, but on the current model, winXP came pre-installed. I left it on because I was enrolled in some course, where it was sort of obligatory, but I rarely ever use it. I think I've been puppified, and find certain XP traits absolutely annoying, and just painful to use.

Whereas, I suppose with nap44, the opposite is the case.

[MU]

There are issues with Puppy or Linux in general.
It would be foolish to deny that.

But just don't forget one thing:
while you pay every license of Windows you use, this is not the case with Linux.
So for companies it is more difficult to make money, hence they can engage not as many developers.

This makes clear, that less new hardware is supported than for Windows.
But old hardware often works much better than with Windows.
Using a free system you do not pay for, requires some more recherche when you buy new hardware, to check if it is supported.
Do not go in a discounter, and buy whatever you see.
Instead, if you like a product, go home first, and check in the web, if you find many articles indicating problems or success.

Puppy is even more "somewhat different", because it is optimized for speed and size.
So it does not use the shared mime info database as "the big ones" do, but a stripped down version with a "incompatible" technique based on Rox-Filer Mime-types.

I see that as a problem, and the puplett Muppy 008.3 will use the shared mime info database.
But Muppy also is much larger than Puppy.
You must decide: a high-speed miniature-system, OR a super comfortable system, that will require somewhat faster hardware.

Cups 1.3.5::
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=25919

Webcam:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=183623#183623

Mark

[cthisbear]

Some of this, possibly much of this is fair comment.
But as I re-install, repair XP just a bit....
I feel that some comments are a little high handed.

When your drives die..Windows won't save you..
Goodbye data...unless you have a Live CD of Puppy.
Unremovable viruses...Puppy.
Unwanted updates that stop you booting...MS.
Unwanted spying on your activities...thanks Microsoft.
Dead - dying drives can still run with Puppy installed.

Overpriced overbloated software....MS.
Where's Windows 98 1st Edition....buggy.
98 SE....had a bug at the start....Bill would not call it that,
so didn't he put out a supplemental repair?
98 only worked bug free with 98 Lite...another fiendish Aussie.
Windows NT4?...first patch 203 megs....unheard of then.
Windows Me....Windows what?

..................
A Logitech Quickcam family webcam and a Canon Pixma MP160 printer completes the setup.
All this runs happily using XP.

And a lot of webcams were dogs in XP.
No software seemed to work. Flaky at best.
..........................
Windows XP on the other hand has not failed once to install and run a program.

Don't do a search on that one.....
awesome and woeful might be interchangeable.
............................
Recent Sony Vaio laptop...Sound died on old install
and no way could I fix it..
How many hours looking for that?
So sound driver was the first thing I installed, in fresh XP....
Failure..drivers supposedly install...but in space no one could hear me
scream.....at Sony.

Kept the old Windows install...aka Puppy,
pointed update driver to that and magic happened.
Had all the drivers that Sony won't put out on the net
because of Puppycopying hdden parttion.
...........................

(If you buy a jumper at the shops, you get to try it on,
choose your colour and take it back if there's something
wrong with it - it's a consumer product.

Yeah! But not if it's microsoft.
Vista ready....see your local lawyer...
sue today as hardware is throwaway.
..............................

Twice in the last few months I've had to reinstall a neighbour's
HP printer, after 'doze lost it's configuration.

HP works wonders on an Acer laptop too....if it works.
Can you get a basic small download driver?
Dream on.
.......................
The good news is that when you realise what a terrible mistake you're making, and remember why you were trying Linux to begin with,
we'll still be here ready to welcome you back into the fold.

Yeah! baby.

......................
And don't let your hardware die and install XP on something else....you are
regarded as a Pirate..... OEM systems?
Give uncle Bill some more of your hard earned cash.

BK is out in his mansion at Penjorie...
feeling your pain whilst he counts your donations.
You were right to move on....moan on?

Chris.

[capoverde]

Every time one faces a new situation, some learning is needed: but some like learning, others don't. Problems are everywhere in life, not just in Linux or Windows (yes, there are in Windows too) and sticking to what's already well known is the common choice, as it avoids the need to learn more: that's perfectly understandable and legitimate. Thus, if one feels he's getting what he wants from a given system, he'll rightly stick to it. Why should he go for alternatives?

[quote]As much as we criticise Microsoft, they do provide a stable and easy to use system which just works.[/quote]

But the fact is, Microsoft *do not* provide a stable and easy to use system which just works! I can well understand (alas!) why Muggins almost choked

Ever tried to open, in Word, a .doc file you made the day before just to get a refusal, and later discover that the file is quite OK and is opened regularly by Open Office; then, after being saved again, that same file is finally accepted by Word?
Ever lost half an hour installing some device driver which some day, unpredictably, stops working correctly and never will again, unless you go for a full reinstall of Windows? Etc. etc. etc.

By comparison, Barry's Puppy is solid as iron rock -- no, not perfect or without problems. If that's what one looks for, he'll better realize that, sadly, there's no such thing...

[Sage]

Anyone for an interesting EULA read? Got a lawyer for a son/daughter?

[oblivious]

[hillside]

And then, there are others who will never go back.

I'm no computer guru, but by keeping my eyes open and paying attention, I've been able to make several versions of Linux operate quite nicely. Puppy is, so far, my favorite and the one I use most.

It's a serious enough operating system that I run my business on it. Word processing, spreadsheet, and even the OO database are more than adequate enough for me to do all the work that I need. It's NOT perfect, but it's very good and nothing that I've found yet is perfect -- including Windows.

Granted, my business is what you would call a micro business where my wife and I are the only employees, and we both have other part time jobs to make ends meet, but the tax collectors still say I have to run things like a real business, and Puppy makes that happen.

What I like, and this is really the thing that keeps me with Puppy, is that I can re-use old equipment. It's illegal to put old electronics in the landfill around here, so I don't suppose I'm doing any huge environmental thing, but I think it's still worthwhile. Waste not, want not.

[nap44]

Hi again,

Didn’t mean to offend anyone. Just trying to voice my frustration when I spend days trying to get what I consider fairly basic things to work in Linux, when in Windows they are up and running in minutes. My experience! Maybe I’ve been spoilt or just damn impatient. Or both.

Oblivious gave me a heads up with his reference to Freespire and I’ve had a look at the site a few hours ago. Professional and very well laid out explanations and definitions . Learn’t more from reading info on this site today than I have in bumbling around in the Linux forums during the past few months. Don’t get me wrong. The info is there in the forums but it is in the form of addressing answers to problems rather than encyclopedic style like the Freespire site.

I think what is getting to me is that from a new user’s viewpoint, answers to questions are very cryptic. Assumes that you have a good working knowledge of Linux, which I don’t. Just following the answer trail is sometimes a minefield in itself.

For instance, the answer to a question might be just a link. So you click on the link only to be confronted by an even more cryptic solution with an explanation that is in developer speak. You sit at the screen reading over and over the given solution and wondering to yourself “now what does that mean”. Finally you work out what to do, follow the advice, only to have an error or some other message pop up which is meaningless. Missing libraries, dependencies, failed install etc. another message displayed. Just download and install a pup or pet etc but you can never find them or the link won’t work or at the end of the download there is a message saying there are still some missing files.
Just one problem after another. This might be fun to some but quite an annoyance to me.

I may have been lucky with XP as I’ve never had any problems with programs that failed to install or my machine slowing down over time. I keep and use utilities regularly that probably keeps the system from falling over. Others may not have been so lucky.

I also believe that there is an attempt to commercialise Linux. Just look at Dell and the Asus eePC with Xandros. Wouldn’t it be a coup if Puppy could be the commercial system of choice. Dreamin~ perhaps.

Puppy has all the ingredients to be a great system and I have a real soft spot for it and I’m well aware that it is free and community based. I just wish that more attention to detail could be embraced, so that each new distro is a step forward instead of one forward and two back.

Cheers!

[oblivious]