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Phoenix CE Base Version for next Community Edition
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Lobster
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan 2008, 22:44    Post subject:  

Quote:
Lobster, I believe my background in the community is the reason why you asked me to head up the community edition in the first place. You obviously had faith that I would make the correct decisions at the time based on that experience, or you would have created the community edition yourself. Why are you now changing your mind about this just because you disagree with a decision you made me responsible for making?


I fully support your decision to make CE for us and to make it reliable and to base it on what is the best available base.
Now it needs to come together. We have a base 2.14r. We have made that decision. We have a browser, Seamonkey. We have made that decision. Initial programs are available.

We now have to start building it. Telling us what we are doing. When an Alpha is available for feedback and so on Smile

If you click on your first thread in this post, you can change the name of the thread to TalkingStickCE (or something more appropriate.)

We are also at the stage were a project leader for a community edition based on Dingo is also required. So I am interested in who is up for that . . .

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Pizzasgood


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PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan 2008, 23:40    Post subject:  

Progress report: I have the technical stuff for syslinux/isolinux done in 3.xx now. The actual images and such will need tweaking, but it all works and I have the install script configured to use it (thought haven't had a chance to test that yet).

I'm done for tonight. Tomorrow I'll go back and work on compiling Pebble statically and maybe using uclib. Then I'll document all this stuff and upload it. Then depending on the time, I might start porting it all to 2.14R. I might have to wait until the weekend for that.

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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Jan 2008, 04:38    Post subject: Re: 2.14  

ecomoney wrote:
...[snip]...takes in old computers, reconditions them and gives them out to the local community, and are used by AVERAGE USERS. We have nearly a hundred computers running puppy in our local community, including homes and businesses....[snip]...My understanding of what a COMMUNITY is however, means users, as well as developers.

Where I think you are missing the point, Robert, is that the "Community" in "Community Edition" is not the user base of Puppy, or any other Linux. It is not your local community of Puppy users either. It is the community of Puppy users who frequent the forums, websites, etc and CONTRIBUTE to the Puppy development cycle. That means by testing, posting bugs, fixing the wiki pages, answering newbie questions, hosting downloads and torrents, etc. etc. THAT is the "Community" of which we speak.

You have broadened the definition to ALL Puppy users because that suits what YOU want to build. And because you are willing to do that, no-one is likely to disagree with you in any determined way ... except someone like me.

That's ok. Disagreement breeds discussion, reflection and hopefully consensus.

ecomoney wrote:
Lobster, I believe my background in the community is the reason why you asked me to head up the community edition in the first place. You obviously had faith that I would make the correct decisions at the time based on that experience, or you would have created the community edition yourself. Why are you now changing your mind about this just because you disagree with a decision you made me responsible for making?

I don't believe this is about Robert "ecomoney" Simpson, or at least it shouldn't be. If you were to take a more objective view of the issue, you might be able to see the problems. By all means develop your stable, reliable, bullet-proof, RetroPuppy. Use all of the resources the community is willing to offer. Call it 2.15CE-Revisited if you like. The point is that is not what the original CE charter that you accepted was about. Is it hard to go bugfixing in 3.01? Sure. I know how hard it was in 2.15CE, so I'm not minimising the issue.

ecomoney wrote:
Whodo you told me when I asked you for guidence that at the end of the day, I was the one making the final decisions (after consultation) because I am the one most qualified to do so.

No, because you are the leader of the project AS IT WAS OUTLINED. There is more than a semantic difference there. Let's draw an analogy you will recognise. A client asks you to develop a program to do a certain job. You accept the commission but part way through you see how big a job it really is and you get jelly-legs over it. So you decide to change the goal post and hope you can convince the customer what you want to do is better than what he asked you to do. Good luck. Sometimes you'll succeed but most times you'll be sacked, and probably not paid for what you've done so far. Is that a fair analogy of what's happening here?

ecomoney wrote:
I was asked to create a community edition, which version upon which it was based was not stated, so I am deciding based not only on the opinion of many of the forum members, but also upon the opinion of the community of users around me IRL.

Umm...sorry but that's not true. Have you visited the CE wiki page at all? Does it not say a "Series 3 CE Edition"? Did you not agree to that and start examining the approach to TS3.03CE? Heck, I'm darn sure I didn't imagine all of that.

Ok, so you decided a 3.xxCE is too hard for you. Fine. Do what you want WITH the community's open and transparent approval. Hold a proper poll. Don't just base your decision on your own predisposition and the plaudits of one or two vocal members. Gee, I sat through hours and hours of IRC chat sessions, emails, PM's, forum threads, etc before I made the final choices. You tried 3.xx on your cafe machines and decided it's too "buggy". Well, duh! That's what is your project leadership role to coordinate the fixing thereof ("Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put" - Winston Churchill Wink ).

ecomoney wrote:
Its been my experience as a developer myself, that to create a good computer program, I must put aside my own personal wishes, and create something that fits the requirements of the people that will eventually use the program. The reason that most computer software projects fail is because this doesnt happen.

...but, Robert, the CE edition isn't for the "people" in general; it's for the "community" in particular. That's my point.

ecomoney wrote:
The best community edition possible, would be one based on 2.14r, with the features identified through user testing as part of the talking stick project. When I was asked to do this job, I took it as a serious responsibility, and I want to create the best possible result I can. As for the name or the number given to it, it really doesnt matter to me.

Well "best" is a subjective term, Robert. If you really don't care about the name and number then I suggest you finish the job and call it 2.15CE Revisited! That way you get your cake and those who want a 3.xx series CE won't have to eat it! Someone else with more, time, energy, determination or whatever will come along to take on 3.02CE, I'm sure. It needs to be fixed; especially since Barry has clearly stated that 3.xx Puppy WILL coexist with 4.xx Dingo in the development cycle, while we all KNOW that the 2.xx series is at an end, developmentally speaking; there will be NO 2.18 version from Barry.

Look, I am truly sorry this has blown up like this. I would have preferred if you had responded to my last PM on the subject. I believe you didn't because you didn't want to "hear" what I "said". It was too far removed from where your mind was already set at the time. That's a pity. I'll say no more about your decision unless you persist in treating it as the original project you were invited to lead. It isn't. That's ok. It's a different project. No problem. Let's leave it at that, ok?

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Lobster
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Jan 2008, 05:22    Post subject:  

Smile Let me put this in another perspective
Not many were willing to take on or had the skills to create an ISO
in the early days . . .

The first community edition 1.09CE, was very much based on Nathan's efforts but with help and feedback from others
He went to create Grafpup

By the time 2.03CE was created, Hacao just went away
translated his version into English and that was the CE

This was the '2.03CE charter'
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/MeatyInfo
What we got and people were pleased with, was a stable Puppy with OpenOffice. There was practically no interaction from the community.
We were a fledgling Puppy.

You kindly stepped forward to help create 2.15CE
You were not well known to the community,
which was a risk that proved worth taking
The first Alphas were massive but the final version was a triumph

I do not expect Robert to manage the project
the way I always like or to make the decisions you would
prefer.

Ecomoney (Robert) deserves a degree of freedom and support.
Just as Barry chose to use JWM through thick and thin
(and it is now a proven window manager)

However I do support the decisions he makes and has made
on our behalf.
That is to use a stable version of Puppy + Seamonkey.

If you decide you would like to be project manager
for DingoCE, I will support you (in my own style)

I would suggest (thinking back) that once decisions start to
be implemented, we need to be with a project . . .

So . . .
Which version of Ezpup should we use?
or should we use the new themes in Dingo JWM as default?

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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Jan 2008, 05:40    Post subject:  

All this who-does-what, to Puppy Linux version x.xx (CE or base) is a side issue IMHO.

Lets look again at the technical situation and where it stands at the moment.

1) 2 and 3 series Puppies are 2 different animals. The most important difference between then is that 3 series has Slackware compatibility. Nothing can be done to a 2 series Puppy version that will turn it into a 3 series version without building it again from scratch.

2) This puts Puppy 3 series in a special position. Even when Puppy 4 becomes a reality, there will be many users who will be happy that in case of necessity, they can always return to 3 series if need be. Same for 2-series afficionados.

3) Given this situation both 2 and 3 series projects should be left an a "stable" state so that any user at any time can go back and select any of these versions as suits their needs at the time. Therefore, both 2 as well as 2 series projects need to be done-and-dusted and signed off, ready to clear the decks for Puppy 4 and its inevitable CE version. The time between now and the arrival of Puppy 4 is the window of opportunity for this.

4) The question of who leads the CE project version of whatever base version, is really determined by whoever has the time, willingness and expertise to undertake the task. It does not have to be a single person who does this. This work could be divided up 2 or even 3 project managers to lighten the load on any one person. What the version no designation of any of these terminating projects is, "ist egal" IMHO

5) I think also, the community as referred to in Puppy CE really refers to the Puppy community. This is a sub-set of the wider community at large. Puppy Linux will never be able to be all thing to all men in the wider community.

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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Jan 2008, 06:11    Post subject:  

Lobster wrote:
I would suggest (thinking back) that once decisions start to be implemented, we need to be with a project . . .

So . . .
Which version of Ezpup should we use?
or should we use the new themes in Dingo JWM as default?

If the community WANTS an IceWM facade, then EZpup-2.17R2 can be updated with wallpaper and stuff from EZpup-3.01 by unpacking it and moving it over. Just don't use the IceWM as it's Slackware-12 only.

Is that what you meant by being "with" the project? Like the Americans are often wont to say "Get with the program"? Razz Very subtle, Lob. Wink

Look, I've had my say. I'm not worried whether Robert agrees with my viewpoint or not. I wish he would coordinate more and control less, but that's me and not him.

Will I offer to front 3.02CE? Probably not, but that's not to say I won't help out. I'd like to see ttuuxxx, Leachim, Gray or Tronkel have a lash at that. All clearly know how to build Puppy from Unleashed. In Jack's (Tronkel's) case we first need to figure out why he can't build from Unleashed on his machine. We know it's not generic because Muppy-008, PuppyRus, and pcPuppyOS are all rebuilds of Puppy 3.01, presumably from Unleashed. Certainly so in the case of pcPuppyOS. I can't imagine Pizzasgood rebuilding with the remaster script alone on a paid job.

On the subject of Dingo, apart from testing it to your heart's content, my advice is to leave it alone. It is still in Alpha (6), so now is not the time to be looking toward fixing niggling usability bugs and bundling software when either may not yet have been "created"! When Barry releases Dingo Final we'll have a potential base for a Puppy-4.0xCE

Barry says 3.0x will continue alongside 4.0x. I have to believe he means what he says about that. In that case the 3.0x series needs the community to get behind it and look for bugs, fix any bugs it finds, select best-of- breed applications to include with a CE version and get on with the job of making it bullet-proof, beautiful and functional. Wow's gDesklets, MU's work on Muppy-008 (especially Build-a-Muppy), and Pizzasgood's development effort on pcPuppyOS are all going in that general direction. It just needs someone to hold the reins, pull it all together and offer up the results for testing. [Notice I said "hold the reins" and not "change horses" - sorry Robert, but I just couldn't resist! Twisted Evil ]

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tronkel


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PostPosted: Thu 31 Jan 2008, 07:53    Post subject:  

WhoDo wrote:

Quote:
In Jack's (Tronkel's) case we first need to figure out why he can't build from Unleashed on his machine.


What I had attempted there was to build a 3.01Retro iso from a normal 3.01 Unleashed framework. This attempt(s) produced an un-bootable iso.

Whether this is caused by something in Unleashed, or is as a result of my hardware setup, I've no idea. Anyone else tried this and found a similar problem?

AFAIK my system would in fact build a normal 3.01 OK. Must try that when I get a mo.

Must say though that my hardware doesn't like full 3.01. No sound for example. So difficult to test the build even if it's successful.

My even older Compaq AMD will run sound under 3.01 but the graphics are hopeless. Also too slow to crunch an unleashed build this side of eternity.

Time to get the shekels out and invest in something else. Pity there is no Walmart here so I could lay may hands on one of their Everex cheapos - ideal for running and buiding Puppies.

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Lobster
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PostPosted: Thu 31 Jan 2008, 08:15    Post subject:  

Quote:
I'd like to see ttuuxxx, Leachim, Gray or Tronkel have a lash at that


Me too. Any possibility guys?

meanwhile . . .
Puppy is flexible, frisky even.
Talking Stick was to be based on 3.02
3.02 not available? OK
we move to what is possible.

I am now going to evolve the wiki
as it is a wiki
all help welcome
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/UsingThisWiki

Cool

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ecomoney


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PostPosted: Thu 31 Jan 2008, 11:34    Post subject: Community Edition  

Whodo, I know of no "Origional 3.03CE Charter" that we are supposed to work to, save this one...the Puppy Linux Mission statement

Quote:
* Puppy will easily install to USB, Zip or hard drive media.
* Booting from CD, Puppy will load totally into RAM so that the CD drive is then free for other purposes.
* Booting from CD, Puppy can save everything back to the CD, no need for a hard drive.
* Booting from USB, Puppy will greatly minimise writes, to extend the life of Flash devices indefinitely.
* Puppy will be extremely friendly for Linux newbies.
* Puppy will boot up and run extraordinarily fast.
* Puppy will have all the applications needed for daily use.
* Puppy will just work, no hassles.
* Puppy will breathe new life into old PCs


The task that was set for me was simply to create the best puppy possible that fits these aims.

My own personal choice of operating system would be ubuntu or one of its derivitives, but the reason I work on puppy is because there is a need for it. 98% of the world still run windows, and puppy give "linux newbs" an opportunity to try linux without risking messing up their current setup or giving them a massive learning curve and a drop in productivity.

Anyway, its obvious there is a lot of disagreement about using 2.14r as a CE base. Let me clarify how this best fits in with the mission statement.

Booting from CD, Puppy will load totally into RAM so that the CD drive is then free for other purposes.

To do this puppy needs to be SMALL. The ISO for 3.01 is 99mb, while the one for 2.14r is 90mb.

Booting from CD, Puppy can save everything back to the CD, no need for a hard drive/ * Booting from USB, Puppy will greatly minimise writes, to extend the life of Flash devices indefinitely.


Puppy does these well enough already (a pretty impressive puppy trick to new users), anyway, next are the real issues

Puppy will be extremely friendly for Linux newbies.

Notice this says "Linux Newbies" not linux developers. 98% of computer users out there are "linux newbies", that is, they have only ever used windows, an OS that has become so popular because it was simple to use by non-techies. This needs to change as its in no-ones long term interest that the internet, the domain of free speech, is controlled by a single bush-funding mega-corporation like Micro$oft. There are bigger issues out there than this one.

One of the main problems for new puppy users when they try it is that they cannot find their files, the things most important to them. 2.14r puts links on the desktop to all of the storage on their computers. This is obvious to them when they first boot. My experience is, if you get a new user to try puppy, you have about ten minutes to impress them. If they dont get instant gratification then they put puppy away and continue using windows. 2.14r also contains other useability enhancements (the classic automatic recovery back into Xwindows after powercut/improper shutdown). This point will be enhanced with the connections/windows files wizards that have been identified to be added to make the CE version thanks to leachim. 2.14r is THE friendliest version of puppy there is.

Puppy will boot up and run extraordinarily fast.

Because 2.14r is smaller, it is also faster to boot. When an OS is "fast", I always include the time taken to learn into account (see above point).

[url]Puppy will have all the applications needed for daily use.[/url]

Here is one of the real show-stoppers. Of all of the many versions of puppy, the 2.14/2.15 series has the biggest number of applications tested and working. Many are not be the latest versions, but they do 99% of the job that the latest ones do.


Puppy will just work, no hassles.

Another show-stopper. Dougal and Pakt, both extremely experienced puppy developers and contributors, have spent the last year ironing out the bugs in 2.14. I agree with whodo, this is hard work and drugery. Why bother to do this with 3.01, when its already been done with 2.14r, this is just duplication of effort? Another reason to use 2.14r is that its base of drivers is a lot more complete than any other puppy (this is a lot to do with the work already invested by Tempestious) . This means that a new user (which puppy is friendly towards) is a lot more likely to be able to boot puppy and have everything on his computer (sound/wireless/graphics) working. This will give them a positive first experience of linux, and they will be a lot more likely to go on and use it, and invest more time learning about it. Some of these users will go on to be developers....

Puppy will breathe new life into old PCs

Disposal of old PC's are big problem, they are polluting containing all kinds of trace metals, zinc, arsenic etc. New ones to replace them take a lot of energy to build and assemble. At the same time, a lot of people in the world cannot afford a new computer, and cannot take part in the new media and the growing "information society" (the "digital divide"). Old ones are available for free because a windows operating system is not available for them. Puppy fills that gap.

Puppy is aimed at older computers, therefore, to be most compatible with their hardware, they need to use older kernels and libraries. Puppy 2.14r has these. If someone has newer pc, and the latest apps, there are plenty of other distributions they can use.

WhoDo, Im saddened that, from you previous post, you seem to think that the decision to use 2.,14r was purely for my own benefit. With refernce to my new middle name. Ecomoney is a non profit company. It hasnt paid me a penny in the last three years. Its merely a mechanism where I can legally bill certain business and community organisations for our operating expenses so we can afford to do what we do. Ive been out giving demonstrations of puppy to businesses and working at the community centre cybercafe the last day and a half, and doing my books and accounts in time for the deadline. I have not been home, or I would have replied to your PM. Personally though I think that all discussion and opinion should be out in the open and expressed freely and respectfully.

Anyhow, all of this discussion is not getting a community edition built.. Lobster is right when he says that we have all of the parts together now and we should get on with assembly. I have asked Ttuxxx (an accomplished packer) to put together a few minor tweaks and app changes to 2.14r which he says he will be doing when he has a window in the next week from his work. Then I will be asking the various feature co-ordinators from the threads marked TS3.03ce to add their packages and wizards to this base. Ive cleared the decks in terms of my (ecomoney's) other work, and will be full-time on the job from now on until it is completed.

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alienjeff


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PostPosted: Thu 31 Jan 2008, 13:16    Post subject:  

Lobster wrote:
We are also at the stage were a project leader for a community edition based on Dingo is also required.

Regardless of development time invested thus far and the number of alpha versions run up the flagpole, Dingo is still in the alpha stage of its first version (ffs!). To start pushing a CE of the first version of Dingo is premature at best and foolhardy at worst. Such an endeavor at this time will be fraught with much of the same problems pushing a CE of an infant version of the 3.xx series has been.

Does anyone else note the peculiarity of v2.15CE being bookended by adjacent version CEs - official or otherwise?

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PostPosted: Thu 31 Jan 2008, 15:45    Post subject:  

I think your absolutely right about the 4 series community edition, it would detract from the current CE edition (s) development. I have always used CE's because theyre bugfixed and stable, 4.xx series is just not ready yet (neither is 3.xx series for that matter).

I hope Barry will continue his enthusiasm for the 4.xx series, and carry on doing what he does best, creating new and innovative ways of packaging linux, rather than having to go back and spend time bugfixing the 3.xx series.

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tempestuous

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PostPosted: Thu 31 Jan 2008, 16:30    Post subject:  

When I suggested that 214R be used as a base for a future CE version, I didn't mean to create a series2 versus series3 situation.
I was trying to consolidate development of "legacy/stable" versions of Puppy, but I won't be unhappy if the community (Puppy community) chooses to focus on the 3series for CE.

Let's just keep some points in mind: I recall that Barry said he would be happy to see the 3series continue to be developed, but he doesn't intend to get involved. I distinctly remember that Barry's reason for moving on to the 4series was dissatisfaction with Slackware 12 library dependencies. By moving back to the T2 development environment, Barry regains control of how the libraries are compiled.

The 3series has more recent GTK2 and glibc than the 2series, but both series should be considered "legacy" since Puppy4 has still further advanced technical features, particularly those related to its modern kernel.

In terms of the Puppy2 series "slipping behind" technically, I'm revealing some information early by saying that the next release of 214R will have the latest ALSA drivers/libraries, and maybe also updated NTFS support.
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JustGreg

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PostPosted: Thu 31 Jan 2008, 20:33    Post subject:
Subject description: I shocked! I agree with AJ
 

I think trying to build a "community edition" on Dingo (Puppy 4) is way too early. Dingo is trying out several new things at once, which is difficult. We are up to alpha 6 and I suspect there will be a couple of more.

I have used Puppy 3.01 since it was released. For me, it is a stable version. I have also on the hard drive next to it, Puppy 2.14R1.01. Puppy 2.14R works well. For my Eee PC, the choice of using Puppy 2.14R or Raffy's breeezy (Puppy 2.13) is a hard one. I keep two SD cards, one with each for demonstrations Which one I use is dependent on the person I am showing. To me, either Puppy 2.14R or Puppy 3.01 is a winner.

I think you should decide on the choice of applications. You, as a group, need to decide what is the most user friendly. For example, I always use PFind and never GTKfind. The same way with Pmount versus MUT. I am not trying to say that Pfind is better than GTKfind or Pmount over MUT. For easy of use, having one choice is easier for new users. The other thing is to stay with them. The change from slypheed to Seamonkey set was a problem with the address book. If dingo goes back, I will be looking at my notes to figure out how to do the conversion between the two. Barry's experimentation is good. It tries new approaches and ideas. I do not mind the problems that occur. However, for a new person, having a stable set of applications is a good idea.

Lastly, the community edition is a volunteer effort. I had done a lot of volunteer activities. It is important that the group come to consensus. However, the person doing the work should the 'last say". If you feel that strongly about a feature, then you should do the effort (programming, coding, testing, etc.) to make the feature successful. Otherwise, the people doing the work get discourage and walk away. They end up feeling "being used" for other person's agenda.

The community edition is a great idea. I think have said enough.

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Everitt

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PostPosted: Thu 31 Jan 2008, 20:42    Post subject:  

Ok, seems everyones doing it, so here's my two cents.
The way I see it is this: the 2.x series has been dropped, it is, from an official development point of view, dead in the water. The later versions started to display some wayward tendencies, and then got left behind as we moved into the 3.x series.
The 3.x series is a significant departure from 2.x, that's why it's a full version higher. Barry left 2.x behind. That doesn't mean we have to. 2.14R is, to mymind, not a step back from 2.17, it's a step ahead. Sure, it lacks some of what 2.17 had, but all that can surely (or already has) been added. So it's got an older kernel? Who cares, it works! Personally I see 2.14R as the natural sucessor to 2.17. I think of it more as an unofficial 2.20.
The 3.x series has had one release, and one bugfix. That's not mature, not at all, and that's not CE material. The slackware compatability is nice, but it's a bit like icing without the cake. The series is too unstable ATM. Perhaps we could bring it up to CE standards, but is it worth it. i personally don't think it is.

What I would suggest is this; base this on the latest 2.x release (2.14R), and, if it's ok with Barry, name it something like 2.18CE, or even 2.20CE (my prefernce is for the latter) official development might have stopped, but why should we?
The 3.x series isn't currently being developed but 4.x is looking very promising. I think that if we base this CE on 2.x, and take the time to really pefect it then it might not be that much of a wait for 4.x to be mature. It's early days yet, but we can busy ourselves with 2.x. One thing at a time huh?
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Boo2themoon


Joined: 15 Aug 2007
Posts: 54
Location: West Country UK

PostPosted: Thu 31 Jan 2008, 21:51    Post subject:  

I think it’s a great idea to have a 2xx base CE.
Its had much additional development too with the likes of Pizzapup and Teenpup etc.
So this could be a great chance to consolidate the 2xx before we leave it behind and you move on to the 4xx series CE. By then the 3xx series will have been further developed and you can create a CE for that too.

Obviously the project cannot be called 2.14rce as this implies its older that 2.15ce and its not 3xx based anymore.
So how about Puppy 2008 RCE (retro)?
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