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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
2.16CE_Home_Alpha4 iso is now uploaded to puppylinux.ca
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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Vienna Austria

PostPosted: Thu 17 Jan 2008, 09:22    Post subject:  2.16CE_Home_Alpha4 iso is now uploaded to puppylinux.ca
Subject description: Codename Evergreen
 

2.16CE_Home_Alpha4 now uploaded to:
http://www.puppylinux.ca/tpp/tronkel

Features:

EZpup 3.0 from WhoDo
Upgraded Pmount from 3 series, likewise probedisk/probepart
Midnight commander with mouse support
Mozilla Labs Prism direct desktop web access
Liferea RSS reader
Conky desktop system monitor
Mplayer, nVidia version
NVU html editor
Sylpheed mail client
Latest Firefox 2.0.0.11
Google desktop search installer, including undeb/unrpm

I would like to use WhoDo's latest 3.01 EZpup for the forthcoming CE SOHO version. It is really smart. At the moment it only works with 3.01 for reasons of Slackware compatibility. I'm hoping WhoDo could perhaps repackage EZpup 3.01 with the older Icewm from EZpup3.00, but with all of the later icons, themes and backgrounds. This would give the SOHO version a nice unique user experience.

Also I am trying to get live hotplugging to work as in Puppy 2.14 revisited, but no luck with this as yet. Does anyone know how to package this up properly?

ttuuxxx has also suggested including his goggle DVD player. I'll give this a go when I can locate the package.

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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Thu 17 Jan 2008, 15:34    Post subject: Re: 2.16CE_Home_Alpha4 iso is now uploaded to puppylinux.ca
Subject description: Codename Evergreen
 

tronkel wrote:
I would like to use WhoDo's latest 3.01 EZpup for the forthcoming CE SOHO version. It is really smart. At the moment it only works with 3.01 for reasons of Slackware compatibility. I'm hoping WhoDo could perhaps repackage EZpup 3.01 with the older Icewm from EZpup3.00, but with all of the later icons, themes and backgrounds. This would give the SOHO version a nice unique user experience.

Jack, I'm just hanging out for taz2011998 to recompile IceWM-1.2.35 in Puppy and then we're in business. The IceWM-1.2.34 in EZpup-3.01 was compiled in Slackware. I can't guarantee it won't work in other Puppy versions, but I've already had trouble with it on my Dingo testbed, so I'm guessing it won't. You could try it on a clean install, if you were in a hurry.

As an alternative, you could just unpack the EZpup-3.01 dotpet using pet2tgz command and use whatever themes and icons you like.

Hope that helps.

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ecomoney


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PostPosted: Mon 28 Jan 2008, 21:08    Post subject: CE?  

Community Edition?

This worries me, previous "community editions" have been exactly that, they are more stable versions with added features requested by the puppy community. There is already an extensive specification for a community edition (codenamed TS3.03ce), based on feedback from the forums and from extensive testing in the field from end users. This has been delayed due to the planned 3.02 base not being released, but is back on track, now being based on the extensively tested 2.14R by Dougal and Pakt.

Im concerned that if this remaster is released under the banner of a community edition, then confidence in the puppy linux development (and that of linux as a whole) by the end user community will be eroded. Good software is designed with the end user in mind, based on their feedback and requirements. If linux is going to become mainstream (just as windows has), it needs to have this process as part of its development.

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tempestuous

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PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2008, 03:38    Post subject:  

I agree. Let's not bandy the term "CE" around too much, because it will lose its significance.
I just added a post to ecomoney's thread "TS3.03CE - Review of Base Version for next Community Edition" adding my support for the idea of the next CE being based on 214R.
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ttuuxxx


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PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2008, 04:44    Post subject:  

As "community editions" go, I know we've had a couple of Official releases, Maybe this could be a "Community Effort" edition? or CE, lol when it came to my "Fire Hydrant Inferno" edition I made a forum and asked everyone what they wanted in a release, and basically i gave it to them thats why it was so big:). Really that was a Community Effort edition also, what tronkel has done to 2.16 is amazing, its a great puppy release and should get some proper recognition. excellent work tronkel. Smile ttuuxxx
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WhoDo


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PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2008, 06:50    Post subject: Re: CE?
Subject description: Long Post - My apologies for that.
 

ecomoney wrote:
Community Edition?

This worries me, previous "community editions" have been exactly that, they are more stable versions with added features requested by the puppy community.

Another thing the Community Editions had in common was that they were all based on the LATEST stable edition of Puppy. 1.09CE was based on Puppy-1.08, 2.03CE (created by a single member, Hacao) was based on Puppy 2.02 and Puppy-2.15CE was based on Puppy 2.14 (it was in beta before 2.16a was released). Tronkel's 2.16CE is perfectly in keeping with that lineage, as it is based on the last stable version of the 2.1x series - 2.17 was never really considered stable and gave way to 3.00 in fairly short order.

Although I understand the reasoning behind the decision, Robert, I cannot concede that a "new" Community Edition based on a reworked 2.14R is in the same tradition. The fact is that Puppy 3.01 should be the base, if the project is to remain true to the CE lineage. Instead of waiting for BarryK to consolidate with bug fixes in 3.02, make 3.02 the bugfixed CE version with all the bells and whistles, just as we did with 2.15CE.

My question is, has the community ever been polled as to which Puppy version they want the new CE to be based upon? If it has then I must have missed the post.

IMHO, a true Community Edition is what the community wants, not just what a few members think will be best for attracting new users, or maintaining "stability" on ancient hardware. If it is the latter objectives you want to achieve, create a puplet based on whatever version you like - go all the way back to 1.08 and the 2.4.xx series kernel if you like - and call it PupWin, StablePup or WinPup, or something equally evocative.

As project coordinator for the 2.15CE project, there was never a suggestion of reverting to 2.11 because it was the best prior version on which to base the new CE version. Instead it had a dual purpose; to provide the community with as many of the features they wanted as was feasible, and to consolidate the latest release (2.14) with updates, bugfixes and usuability features where these didn't introduce new bugs. I think it succeeded by virtue of the number of members who STILL use the 2.15CE edition as their daily work horse.

I'm sorry, Robert, but you already know my feelings on this issue. Because it's hard is never a good reason to abandon a project direction. To quote Tom Hanks in A League of Their Own, "Of course it's hard. If it was easy everyone would do it. It's the hard that makes it great!"

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ecomoney


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PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2008, 07:25    Post subject:  

Hi whodo/all

We did have lengthy discussions on the forum about the base for the community edition, and it was decided that 3.02 would make the best base. This was when the 3.xx series was still in Alpha. We felt that the new features in the 3.xx series would be worth waiting for, and that the 3.xx series would be suitably stable by the time 3.02 came out. We would use the time while Barry was bugfixing the 3 series to produce a complete and useable feature set (which has been done). I pm'ed Barry requesting that he make a particular effort with 3.02 to remove bugs and produce a stable base. Unfortunetly, while we were waiting for 3.02 to appear, Barry switched his efforts to the 4.xx series (doesnt this tell us something about the longevity of the 3.xx series?).

Things are a lot different now, largely because of the success of 2.15ce, the 2.15/2.14 2.16.18.1 kernel based series has the most support. From my experience, users are requesting more stability and support. 2.14R has been extensively bugfixed, and has the most support. I realise that this is unconventional (and have mentioned the fact), but at the end of the day the best possible result result is more important than a version number. 2.14R is the most stable, tested and supported version there is currently available, and puppy's niche is ancient hardware. It also has a lot of the newer features from 3.xx backported to it, while remaining stable. The CE editions have always been based on the latest versions of puppy, because they have been up to now the best. This is not the case from what I see at the moment of the puppy landscape (at least until the 4.xx series gets up to speed).

The true challenge of programming I was taught is to make it useful as a day to day tool by the most people. Windows currently has 98% market share because it is made easy to use without specialist knowledge. This is because its developers have an attitude of service to its customers, because if they didnt their software would not be used and they wouldnt get paid. If linux is to gain market share, then it needs to adopt this attitude, or it will forever stay an operating system by developers for developers.

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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2008, 11:08    Post subject:  

WhoDo wrote:

Quote:
Because it's hard is never a good reason to abandon a project direction


Well said WhoDo

Although they are making an excellent job of it, I wonder why the decision to retrench to 2.14 as a candidate for reworking was ever made.

What were the alternatives?
1) Use 2.16.1 as the base. This has been endorsed by Barry in his blog as being an appropriate solution.
2) All the very fine work that Dougal and Pakt have lavished on 2.14 could perhaps better have been directed at 3.01, thus in effect, creating 3.02 - a project that Barry will probably not go ahead with now, since he is, and quite rightly so, occupied with Puppy 4. That decision alone will be in the best interests of Puppy Linux. Lobster in particular, was greatly in favour of holding off the community effort until such times as 3.02, in whatever form, arrives on the scene. IMHO he was right about this.

I originally wanted to base my efforts on 3.01Retro, but unfortunately this was destined not to be. I couldn't get 3.01 Unleashed to build a bootable lSO, so had to retrench to the next best thing and use 2.16.1 (sacrifice of Slackware compatibility for example)

Whatever the pros and cons are of the various base versions, events are about to overtake us now in any case. All of the 2 and 3 series Puppies, whether base or CE versions, have only a very short-tern useful life ahead of them. With the advent of ultra-cheap higher-specified and maybe disposable hardware starting to appear, the old metal that has been so well served by Puppy in the past, is now approaching the end of its life-cycle.

Would it not be a better idea to concentrate all community effort on the 4 series - rather than waste time on versions that clearly will soon become dinosaurs?

The argument as to which version is best for a CE version is now irrelevant IMHO. Events have overtaken us. Main thing is though, that we all get to use and enjoy the various versions of Puppy in whatever form and whoever created them.

ecomoney wrote:

Quote:
If linux is to gain market share, then it needs to adopt this attitude, or it will forever stay an operating system by developers for developers


I don't think the concept of "market share" is relevant here. Software that is free is by definition not part of the market place.

Puppy (also Linux in general), does not necessarily have to become an "everymans" OS in the style of Windows. Its greatest strength is that it is not Windows and never will be.

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Lobster
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PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2008, 11:36    Post subject:  

This is from the Puppy 4 (Dingo) wiki page
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Puppy4

Barry's thoughts about Puppy 3 & Puppy 4:

Quote:

I have tried to clarify the point on my blog that the puppy3 series will continue. I will differentiate them with different names and on my main page where I state the latest version, I'll put both, so there'll be Slappy (or whatever it gets called) v3.02 and Dingo (or whatever) v4.00.

It is good that MU and PuppyRus are using puppy3, it can keep getting developed as long as Slackware 12 remains viable.

We need to emphasise that despite the version number differences these are the latest of each breed. Slappy specialises in Slackware 12 package compatibility, with Gslapt and lots of extra libraries like Tcl/Tk.

Dingo is the latest libraries and packages compiled from source with T2, with a much narrower focus, GTK2 apps only and built for smallness.

From the point of view of hardware detection, startup/shutdown scripts, all the underlying stuff, they will be equivalent.


3.02 has not been released. I believe it will be.

In the mean time it makes sense to concentrate on developing those components that can be tested and developed on an ISO base we have.

As Robert is project leader he must decide, based on how he interprets the communities needs and direction. He has already made a decision.

The next part is to finalise, include and release something as a basis to work, and discuss from.

We have:
A wiki
programs
developers ready and chomping on the bit
some art work
an installer for sfs that needs a hard core coder
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=146033#146033

what else?

Smile

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ecomoney


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PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2008, 14:49    Post subject:  

The project direction of this community edition was always that it should be stable, easy to use by beginners, able to run on old hardware and have plenty of supported drivers and software. Changing to a 2.14R base is not a new direction for these objectives. From what I understand, 3.xx is very similar to the later 2.xx series (compared with the differences between 1.xx and 2.xx), except that it has a better supported kernel for the drivers and software. 2.14R also has the latest features from the 3 series (features matter to users, not kernels), including automount desktop icons and multiple save files, meaning more people can take advantage of one computer (its people having access to the web which is important, not computers on the web). 2.16 has very limited support for drivers, which mean more wasted hardware and frustrated users. 2.14 has been worked on by Dougal and Pakt for nearly a year (long before 3.xx was conceived), has been given an complete makeover and crucial useability features. Doesnt work and cant be operated by an computer user of average technical skill amounts to the same thing....doesnt work. It is far from an old version, but a version for old computers and new linux users, one perfectly in tune with puppy's mission statement.

With the greatest of respect to Barry, he is a genius when it comes to packaging linux in the smallest and fastest way, and an expert with the internals of the linux archetecture. I use puppy regularly in the community with puppy, and I believe I have a good idea of what users want. Barry is an innovator, not a bugfixer or a useability tester. I dont believe 3.02, if it ever does come out, would be considerably fixed to produce a more stable and suitable version as a community edition base than 2.14r.

Newer computers (1000mhz and upwards) are quite frankly already served by other linux distros. Granted the spec at which windows computers are being thrown away is going to go up, but that still leaves a lot of potentially useful computers that will end up as waste, and it will only run faster on newer computers (if theyre not already running ubuntu). I believe it will be some time before the 4.xx series is up to speed, and there is still plenty of life in the older versions of puppy. What is missing from them is useability, and 2.14r addresses that.

Market share was perhaps the wrong term...desktop share would be better. The internet is perhaps the greatest human invention since the wheel in terms of its potential to bring wealth to humankind. I really dont think that this is best left in the control of a company with the ethical practices that Microsoft employ (and in the control of who the fund). If we are to make a viable alternative to Windows, and bring people over to using it, we need linux to be easier to use than windows, and make the learning curve as shallow, and worthwhile, as possible.

It seems were going to have to agree to disagree about this if Barry has asked you to create a CE. We will just have to see exactly how much the extra useability research matters when the different versions are released.

All we need now is a final packager for the modules that have been developed so far (hint hint!) Very Happy

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ttuuxxx


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PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2008, 15:21    Post subject:  

The way I look at the next "CE" edition is that it should be based on 3.1 , Why not take 3.01 and do the final fixes that are posted on here and basically make the 3.02 release, I have found 3.01 extremely stable, I haven't had any problems with it and lets not forget the Slackware aspect which is just incredible, I Personally feel it it should be 3.01 based and have FIREFOX as the default browser. It Should show the world that puppy has the latest kernel? Oh also I only use puppy on my new pc, And I don't run any other Linux's. Puppy isn't just for older pc's it run great on the latest pc's, I even tried it on this quad-core amd server I made for a client, it ran like a charm:) Also I feel that we need to support the 3 series or it might just be replaced with the 4.0 series, which would be a crime.
ttuuxxx

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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2008, 15:41    Post subject:  

ecomoney wrote:

Quote:
All we need now is a final packager for the modules that have been developed so far (hint hint!) Very Happy


I would of course help if asked.

Slight technical hitch:
On the PC that I would need to use for the Unleashed directory, 2.14R will not boot for some reason. I could do the build using another Puppy version, but I need to test the build afterwards. It does boot my other PC though, but that one takes a long time to crunch the Unleashed build, plus I can't configure the graphics very well on that old iron.

I would really like to get 2.14R to boot. Anyone else had this problem? Maybe I should be using an updated 2.14R iso.

My poor long-suffering wife kicked up merry hell about the time I spent making 2.16CE. Rolling Eyes lol ...this new task might give her grounds for divorce!

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WhoDo


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PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2008, 17:35    Post subject:  

ttuuxxx wrote:
Why not take 3.01 and do the final fixes that are posted on here and basically make the 3.02 release, I have found 3.01 extremely stable, I haven't had any problems with it and lets not forget the Slackware aspect which is just incredible,

Precisely. Every consolidation in the 2.15CE version came from user contributions. Bug fixes, updated features, the works. Barry did NOT supply anything for that. He was heavily involved in producing 2.16a at the time. In fact he was pressing us to release quickly so he could get the alpha out early.

Waiting for Barry to produce 3.02 is a pointless exercise. Barry has always released bug fix consolidations AFTER the community has found the bugs AND offered solutions. That is why it is worthwhile that Muppy, PuppyRus and even the latest Pizzasgood project for freidsonj are based on 3.01 - what they find and fix will finally be brought to account in 3.02, which will continue to be supported.

The idea that we'll wait for Barry to do this or that for us is just NOT in the Puppy charter these days.

I applaud, wholeheartedly, what Dougal and Pakt have done with 2.14R - if all I've heard is true then it certainly does represent the peak of development for the 2.1x series of Puppy so far, and rightly so. Like I said, develop it into PupWin or StablePup or whatever, but it doesn't fit the CE model. 3.01 does, and I'm yet to see any real evidence of the instability that ecomoney occasionally refers to. It seems rock solid to me, but I'm not trying to run it on a P1-133MHz machine with 64Mb RAM. Is anybody these days?

Puppy 1.09CE for i486 and P1
Puppy 2.15CE for PII
Puppy 3.02CE for PIII & Pentium M
Puppy 4.0xCE for PIV & Duo Core

Can we see the lineage that I'm talking about here?

Cheers

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alienjeff


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PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2008, 18:59    Post subject:  

Puppy charter? Puh-leez!
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Lobster
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PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2008, 23:36    Post subject:  

tronkel wrote:
ecomoney wrote:

Quote:
All we need now is a final packager for the modules that have been developed so far (hint hint!) Very Happy


I would of course help if asked.



You need asking? Very Happy
Consider yourself asked
Here is the software that needs preparing and is certainly ready for an alpha on any ISO base from 214 onward
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=147854#147854

Keep us informed of how you get on

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