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 Forum index » House Training » Users ( For the regulars )
Boot issue after rude shutdown
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
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ScottD

Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Tue 16 Oct 2007, 14:52    Post_subject:  Boot issue after rude shutdown  

If power was removed or somebody forgets to shut down Puppy 3.0 gracefully on the next boot, the system goes into console mode, no message, no nothing. It looks broken. If the person has enough knowledge about linux and tries to run xwin you get a cryptic message about XWIndows crashing and how you need to run the xwizard...

This is all wrong and just the kind of thing that newbies hate about linux.

A dialog coming up with a message about not having been shut down correctly and doing a check disk unless the user says skip it and then booting into X is user friendly. Rudely dumping them to console mode is bad, bad bad!

How do I get rid of this rude behavior and have it automatically boot into X even if it was shut down incorrectly?

thanks, Scott
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paulh177


Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 875
Location: ST862228

PostPosted: Tue 16 Oct 2007, 15:19    Post_subject:  

have a look at this thread for help.

While it doesn't bother me, I tend to agree that users (and puppy) deserve more graceful management of this condition, especially now puppy 3.0 is so slick and professional.

paul
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ScottD

Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Tue 16 Oct 2007, 15:41    Post_subject:  

Interesting thread, with the same issue I have.

That thread is a year old, the solution was not found, and the problem still exists..

It looks like control flags for starting X are being modified from multiple sources and no single individual knew all of them back then.

Hopefully somebody now knows????? Cause its STILL BROKE!

Scott
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Flash
Official Dog Handler


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 11122
Location: Arizona USA

PostPosted: Tue 16 Oct 2007, 15:58    Post_subject:  

While I agree that a modern operating system should be able to handle an unexpected power failure more gracefully than that, it should be noted that Puppy was originally designed to run from a live CD. Puppy's amazing versatility has permitted it to run as a hd install, but perhaps with some rough edges.

I run Puppy from a multisession DVD. If I haven't done anything that I want to save, I just turn off the power. The next time Puppy boots, it is in the same state as the last time it was shut down properly. I don't know what happens if Puppy is run from a live CD with a save file on hd, and the power fails.

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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Tue 16 Oct 2007, 17:48    Post_subject: I agree  

I agree, this issue has, more than any other, stopped puppy being useable by new linux users, and re-enforces stereotypes about linux. It was thankfully fixed by whodo when he managed the last community edition project 2.15ce. The fix will definetly be in the next 3.02ce edition as well. Its a shame it hasnt been integrated into mainstream puppy yet.
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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11130
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Tue 16 Oct 2007, 21:40    Post_subject: Re: Boot issue after rude shutdown  

ScottD wrote:


How do I get rid of this rude behavior and have it automatically boot into X even if it was shut down incorrectly?

thanks, Scott


How can you justify shutting down ANY operating system improperly?

I suggest try Vector Linux with a reisferfs filesystem, you'll probably be happy with it because its a good distro. Also, it will try and recover from your disorderly shutdowns without bothering you as much. And the damage will be a little less because of the filesystem type.
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d4p


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 407

PostPosted: Tue 16 Oct 2007, 22:30    Post_subject:  

add pfix=ram in your menu.lst
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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11130
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Tue 16 Oct 2007, 23:23    Post_subject:  

Flash wrote:


I run Puppy from a multisession DVD. If I haven't done anything that I want to save, I just turn off the power. The next time Puppy boots, it is in the same state as the last time it was shut down properly. I don't know what happens if Puppy is run from a live CD with a save file on hd, and the power fails.


In your case the hard disk is probably not even mounted and writes to the pup_save file are buffered in RAM.

When running on the hard disk, disk writes that are happening will not happen and usually end up with a corruption of sorts. Also, writes, deletions, unmounting devices and other things that happen in an orderly shutdown won't happen.

The ext2 filesystem we run Puppy on is the most susceptible Linux filesystem for corruption. On the other hand, its also the fastest.

I liken Puppy to a hot rod car. It doesn't have electric windows and other automatic features, but it gets up and goes. It can also be a bit delicate, so keep spare parts around. (meaning backups)
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Wed 17 Oct 2007, 05:40    Post_subject: Puppy shutdown  

Puppy is running on about 100 computers in my local area, Ive been using it for 2 1/2 years. I have NEVER known anything be corrupted after an improper shutdown (which can happen, intended or not). This behavior just makes puppy seem fragile and complicated to the *majority of people*. Puppy is a distribution for Linux Newbs!!!

I agree that shutting down properly is a practice that should be encouraged. On ecopup, the screen that comes up on the next boot after an improper shutdown makes the user wait for about as long as it would have taken them to have shut down the computer in the first place!

If puppy is going to make it as a mainstream distribution it needs common real world scenarios like this handling gracefully, otherwise it will just become another distribution by developers for developers.

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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11130
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Wed 17 Oct 2007, 06:03    Post_subject: Re: Puppy shutdown  

Ecomoney,

This problem is very, very rare for me. I suppose because I do shut it down in an orderly manner, and Los Angeles rarely has power outages.

But I do think I've seen the 'problem' a couple times and all I need to do is type in xwin.

I want to know if we are on the same page. Is this what we are talking about?

Bruce
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ScottD

Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Wed 17 Oct 2007, 08:03    Post_subject:  

>>How can you justify shutting down ANY operating system improperly?

Personally I can't but we're talking users here. If I'm going to deploy Puppy it needs to be user friendly even when the unwashed public screw up. A pissing contest about how to shut a PC down won't solve the problem.

I'm looking for solutions not opinions.

thanks,

Scott
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ScottD

Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Wed 17 Oct 2007, 08:05    Post_subject:  

>>add pfix=ram in your menu.lst

How would that fix it??

Scott
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ScottD

Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Wed 17 Oct 2007, 08:07    Post_subject: Re: I agree  

ecomoney wrote:
I agree, this issue has, more than any other, stopped puppy being useable by new linux users, and re-enforces stereotypes about linux. It was thankfully fixed by whodo when he managed the last community edition project 2.15ce. The fix will definetly be in the next 3.02ce edition as well. Its a shame it hasnt been integrated into mainstream puppy yet.


Well I guess I can download 2.15ce and search for the changes..

Scott
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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11130
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Wed 17 Oct 2007, 11:07    Post_subject:  

ScottD wrote:
>>How can you justify shutting down ANY operating system improperly?

Personally I can't but we're talking users here. If I'm going to deploy Puppy it needs to be user friendly even when the unwashed public screw up. A pissing contest about how to shut a PC down won't solve the problem.

I'm looking for solutions not opinions.

thanks,

Scott


Scott, if you read up, I offered the best solution I can think of. Maybe you didn't recognize the sincerity of it.

I installed Puppy for a friend. His wife would turn the computer off like she does the television. I was getting too many complaints. I installed Vector Linux as I suggested above and haven't yet a problem or complain from them.
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HairyWill


Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 2949
Location: Southampton, UK

PostPosted: Wed 17 Oct 2007, 11:41    Post_subject:  

ScottD wrote:
>>add pfix=ram in your menu.lst

How would that fix it??

Scott

it won't
adding the following line to /etc/rc.d/rc.local will though
Code:
rm -f /etc/.XLOADED

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