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 Forum index » House Training » Beginners Help ( Start Here)
Questions re hd install: frugal vs full, and which format?
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Sit Heel Speak


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2595
Location: downwind

PostPosted: Thu 09 Aug 2007, 00:26    Post subject:  

ICPUG wrote:
However, I think SHS is confused about the usage of pup_save.2fs...From reading Barry's 'How Puppy Works take 2, I would suggest usage of puppy files is as follows...

Sorry for the delay in answering, as I had to handle a multi-day household emergency. I would like Barry to weigh in on this. I believe "How Puppy Works" needs an overhaul.

If you use PUI (Puppy's Universal Installer) to create a full hdd install in 2.17, Puppy at shutdown does ask whether to create a pup_save.2fs. If you say yes, and then reboot into this full install, you can't use rox to mount its pup_save.2fs; you get an error message that it is already mounted and in use by Puppy.

If you use rox to mount the pup_save.2fs from another full hdd install (on another partition), you will see that inside the pup_save.2fs on a full hdd install are the subdirs /etc, /initrd, /lib, /lost+found, /root, and /usr. This led me to the conclusion that this pup_save.2fs is indeed, on a full hdd install, where your personal changes are stored.

vmlinuz is placed in /boot by PUI when doing a full hdd install. Just like in SuSE and Gentoo and I would guess the majority of other full hdd Linux installs.

Quote:
On a frugal it might be in /boot on the real file system.
You may be right; it just dawned on me, I have always created my frugal installs by manually unpacking the .iso. I have never created a frugal install with PUI. Nor have I ever created a frugal install on anything other than a vfat partition.

Late at night here, and I have had an exhausting last three days. I will have to come back and look at it in 24.

Klu9, perhaps you'd better withdraw that new wiki page until this is all straightened out.
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ICPUG

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1305
Location: UK

PostPosted: Sun 12 Aug 2007, 19:49    Post subject:  

SHS

Thanks for the background info. I now totally understand your comments re vmlinuz. Your original words are right. I got myself confused on this one.

Your experience with finding pupsave.2fs on your full hard drive install is very strange considering what 'How Puppy Works' said, but practical experience is much better than words! I have raised a question in the User's section. Hopefully Barry will answer.

I am sure pupsave.2fs works as I said in a frugal setup though.

ICPUG
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Sit Heel Speak


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2595
Location: downwind

PostPosted: Mon 13 Aug 2007, 02:47    Post subject:  

Yeah, but as explained in the other thread you started, I'm convinced now that the pup_save.2fs is not really used; or, rather, some daemons and/or scripts do write into it, and it is auto-mounted if present, but only because the daemons and/or scripts and the init sequence are all hard-coded to mount and write-into the pup_save if one is present, without considering whether they are running from within a normal hdd install or not--therefore they never consider, whether they should write into pup_save or into the regular / directory tree, because the case of the normal hdd install was not considered when written--Puppy was never intended to be run as a full normal install.

The fact that a pup_save.2fs is createable at all in a normal hdd install, is (I believe) in essence nothing more or less than a design oversight in Puppy Universal Installer.

Bedtime for Bonzo here, I will return and revise the above essay in 24.
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_MegadetH_

Joined: 28 Sep 2008
Posts: 221
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Sun 28 Sep 2008, 12:35    Post subject:  

I'm new to PuppyLinux. I read wiki and threads here. I still have some doubts.
I quote comparison from wiki:

"* A Full install runs faster in low-RAM computers; but is very complex/impossible to upgrade (you wipe and replace with a new version of Puppy) and cannot be placed on a Windows FAT32 or NTFS hard drive/partition."

1) Why full install is complex/impossible to upgrade?

"If however you have enough ram for the particular Puppy version, a frugal install is better, because almost everything (i.e. everything in pup_xxx.sfs, but NOT pup_save.2fs) is loaded into ram, therefore called from ram, therefore loads faster."

2) I've 320Mb ram, frugal could be ok, but what happens if I open lot of programs and they fill the whole 320Mb ram I've? Does puppy use Hd memory when ram is full loaded by processes?
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Eyes-Only


Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 1046
Location: La Confederation Abenaquaise

PostPosted: Wed 01 Oct 2008, 12:24    Post subject:  

Hi Megadeth and welcome to the Puppy Kennels Smile

Sorry that it's taken so long for someone to reply to your questions my friend. Sometimes we don't see the question, or sometimes we don't know the answers, etc. As it is, I don't know the exact answers to each of your questions but I'll try my best until someone with far more knowledge comes around, okie? Smile

As to the first question: A frugal install is much easier to upgrade as it only involves taking a few files off from the CD which you have made of the new Puppy version .iso and placing them onto the hard drive where the older-version files were. Then you would use your grub file to start up the frugal install of Puppy in the normal way, Puppy would "see" your "pup_save.2fs" file and upgrade that to the newer version---saving your changes in "/tmp" for anything you would like to replace. (Normally it leaves your software which you've installed alone unless it has a newer version of it, etc.)

But if you have a hard drive install? That's a different story. In the past though BarryK used to have Puppy set up so that it could even update a hard drive install. That was a really nice feature! I thought so anyway. You simply placed the new disk in your CD drive and started with a special command (if I recall correctly) and it found Puppy and asked if you wished to upgrade to the new version. Like the frugal install, this too saved your changes in "/tmp".

I do not know if this second manner of upgrade is done anymore though? Seems so it was done in the 2 Series of Puppy. And of course!---like anything that touches your install---there was always a chance for corrupting your data, just like when installing software from GSlapt into Slackware or from Synaptic into Debian, right? There's always that small chance when finished you won't have a system left. (How I remember those times only TOO WELL!)

Now to your second question? This I CAN answer very easily because I do have a frugal install running as I write this. Wink Make sure that when you do a frugal install that you have what is called a "Linux-swap partition" on your hard drive. Myself? I use the "PartedMagic" CD to make mine as it has a much improved version of GParted on it as compared to the one found in Puppy. But be very careful as partitioning software can ruin hard drives in the hands of the inexperienced. Even I make sure I triple and quadruple check all my settings before I press the "Apply" button and I never resize a reiserfs formatted partition!! The one and only time I did that I lost my entire drive and had to blank/reformat from scratch all over again. Crying or Very sad

Once you have a Linux-swap partition (usually made about twice the size of your RAM) then Puppy will automagically "see and mount it" when booting up. If you fill up your RAM with too many apps then it should---theoretically---start using the swap partition such as mine is doing at this moment by 10megs. Wink

A lot of words and advice. I hope this all helped in some small way my friend? Once again: Welcome to Puppy and we hope to see you here more often! Smile

Amicalement/Cheers!

Eyes-Only
"L'Peau-Rouge"

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_MegadetH_

Joined: 28 Sep 2008
Posts: 221
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Sat 04 Oct 2008, 10:46    Post subject:  

Hi Eyes-only! Thank you for helpful informations, you're very kind! Smile
Sorry for delay, but I couldn't reply before, I had a travel.

Finally I got my full hd installation with some problems with Grub at the beginning, but in the end I solved Grub problem!
Now i discovered the "power" of swap. I've 320Mb Ram and I made a 640Mb swap partition. Strange thing is that in the bar near the clock I see "714M free icon" and not 960M (320Mb of real ram + 640M swap).
Comparing to Live cd with full Hd I noticed a lesser speed to open Seamonkey (few seconds), but the good point is having more free ram to run bigger apps.
To make partitions I used Gparted, it was ok. I "played" a bit with it formatting and resizing partitions. I hope it didn't ruin my hd. You talked about not resizing reiserf partitions. I don't know that format, I formatted my partitions in ext2 I hope it has nothing to do with reiserf.

Anyways I'm loving Puppy Linux! It runs very fast and is stable! Yeah, I will come back to check forum, it is very friendly.
Not always in other linux forum pro-users are as much friendly with newbies as here!Smile

Cheers my friend!
A bientot! Wink
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Béèm


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 11775
Location: Brussels IBM Thinkpad R40, 256MB, 20GB, WiFi ipw2100. Frugal Lin'N'Win

PostPosted: Sat 04 Oct 2008, 10:58    Post subject:  

_MegadetH_ wrote:
Now i discovered the "power" of swap. I've 320Mb Ram and I made a 640Mb swap partition. Strange thing is that in the bar near the clock I see "714M free icon" and not 960M (320Mb of real ram + 640M swap)
The figure in there has nothing to do with available ram, but with available personal space.
In frugal install it indicates how much is left in the pup_save. In a full HD (at least in my case) it indicates how much is left on the HDD. I have a 6GB HDD and the applet says 5,2GB free.

To see about ram/swap you can type the command free in a rxvt terminal.

_________________
Time savers:
Find packages in a snap and install using Puppy Package Manager (Menu).
Consult Wikka
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_MegadetH_

Joined: 28 Sep 2008
Posts: 221
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Sat 04 Oct 2008, 11:22    Post subject:  

Béèm wrote:
_MegadetH_ wrote:
Now i discovered the "power" of swap. I've 320Mb Ram and I made a 640Mb swap partition. Strange thing is that in the bar near the clock I see "714M free icon" and not 960M (320Mb of real ram + 640M swap)
The figure in there has nothing to do with available ram, but with available personal space.
In frugal install it indicates how much is left in the pup_save. In a full HD (at least in my case) it indicates how much is left on the HDD. I have a 6GB HDD and the applet says 5,2GB free.

To see about ram/swap you can type the command free in a rxvt terminal.


Thanks Béèm, I though it was free hd space, but an image in wiki here http://www.puppylinux.org/wiki/archives/old-wikka-wikki/categoryreleases/puppy2 confused me. Tthey wrote Ram space above that icon, but reading details it was refered to storage.
That free command is very useful, I should find a terminal command list somewhere.
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