Puppy Linux 2.17 has already been released...

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Gekko
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Puppy Linux 2.17 has already been released...

#1 Post by Gekko »

How can this early release be justified?
Puppy 2.17alpha available
Monday, July 9, 2007, 11:11 AM

Puppy 2.17beta available
Sunday, July 15, 2007, 07:47 PM

2.17-release-candidate
Wednesday, July 18, 2007, 11:55 PM

Puppy version 2.17 released
Friday, July 20, 2007, 12:25 AM
Now let's compare this to the roadmap of KDE4.
* 1 KDE 4.0
o 1.1 August 2006: Technical Preview 1
o 1.2 November 2006: Technical Preview 2
o 1.3 February 2007: Technical Preview 3
o 1.4 Milestones
+ 1.4.1 April 2, 2007: Subsystem Freeze
+ 1.4.2 May 1, 2007: kdelibs Soft Freeze
+ 1.4.3 May 3, 2007: Alpha Tagging
+ 1.4.4 June 1, 2007: trunk/KDE is module frozen
+ 1.4.5 June 27, 2007: Alpha2 Tagging
+ 1.4.6 July 24, 2007: Core Library Freeze
+ 1.4.7 July 25, 2007: Beta1 Tagging
+ 1.4.8 August 20, 2007: Message Freeze
+ 1.4.9 August 25, 2007: Beta2 Tagging
+ 1.4.10 September 23, 2007: Total Release Freeze
+ 1.4.11 September 25, 2007: Release Candidate 1
+ 1.4.12 October 9, 2007: Release Candidate 2
+ 1.4.13 October 23, 2007: Targeted Release Date
Here's a brief release history.

The irony here is this: KDE4 is a desktop environment, and Puppy Linux is an operating system. Desktop environments should be released faster than Operating Systems... the desktop environment doesn't need to be [as] rigorously tested as an operating system for stability and workability, so once again, why release yet ANOTHER version so fast?

It's becoming tediously hard to keep supporting this operating system. If another is released within the next two months, you will not see me again.

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HairyWill
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#2 Post by HairyWill »

Gekko I agree it is hard to keep up but the release cycle makes a lot of sense to me.

Puppy has a much smaller group of testers => they will not find so many bugs.
Once you've tested under every scenario you are going to and fixed all the bugs that you have identified you might as well release

A small(ish) project with a long release cycle will just stagnate.

If there was a way of increasing the size of the test community it would be possible to slow down the release cycle. As it stands puppy needs its main user community to do beta testing.

"publish or be damned"
Will
contribute: [url=http://www.puppylinux.org]community website[/url], [url=http://tinyurl.com/6c3nm6]screenshots[/url], [url=http://tinyurl.com/6j2gbz]puplets[/url], [url=http://tinyurl.com/57gykn]wiki[/url], [url=http://tinyurl.com/5dgr83]rss[/url]

Sage
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#3 Post by Sage »

Whilst agreeing that it's difficult to keep up with the present pace of releases, HW also makes some valid points.
Since receiving a clear statement from Barry, we all have recognise that this is a hobby project for him. We should be grateful. Those who want to work to more rigorous benchmarks, release modified branch versions and generally work to different parameters have not only met no objections from BK but receive his positive support.
With budgets and staffing, not to mention testing pools, the likes of Novell, RH, Mozilla or even KDE operate to different criteria.
Some minor distros, even though a few might be considered 'good', stagnate for a range of reasons, including the need to earn a crust, pressure from 'the other half', illness (Patrick V!!), relocation, you-name-it.
Interestingly, some of the most successful distros are substantially under the direction of a single individual, most notably Barry and Texstar, not to mention MEPIS and Slackware.

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BarryK
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#4 Post by BarryK »

Yes Gekko, I have a different philosophy with regard to releases. You have plastered comments on my blog that are not appropriate. I have always run the Puppy project in this way, and there are usually bugs that are discovered after a final release. Gee, I have often just done a final release without any alphas, betas or anything.

There's a term call "risk management" which refers to how I run the project. It is not ill-considered, it is my choice, but what I have seen recently as more people have come on-board, it rubs them the wrong way.

So, I've made a decision about something. I'm going to forge a schism between my own Puppy project and the "community Puppy project". I'll announce details soon.

jamesbond
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#5 Post by jamesbond »

First - I would repeat what Sage mentioned just now. I am grateful for Puppy - first and foremost to Barry, and then, to the rest of the puppy community.

Now for my personal plea: Barry - I hope the schism doesn't happen. As of today, (my understanding is) everyone is already free to take whatever puppy version, and stick to it - and base their own sub-distribution on it if they wish. Nobody is forcing anyone to use or to upgrade the latest release. Use the one that works, and stick to it. You even make it far enough to ease "partial upgrading" (e.g by installing newer PET packages for older puppy) for those who prefer not to move on.

If you have a separate "personal" puppy and "community" puppy - what would happen would be a loss to most people. Allow me to explain:
I personally find that your approach to problems are original, interesting and pragmatic. If you split the project, there will be two versions of puppy - "leading edge" Barry's puppy, and everyone else's puppy. All the new enhancements, ideas, will be in Barry's puppy, AND hopefully it will trickle down to the community puppy (which will perhaps has a different goal, different release schedule, different preference, etc).

Now let's imagine two possible future:
1. A process-free community puppy (no appointed lead). I foresee that it will simply wander and slowly lost. Improvements in Barry's puppy may or may not make it to the community puppy. In the end, the so-called community puppy won't be much different from the many puplets we have today - here today, gone tomorrow (unless the people behind it is as staunch as Barry). In the end, people will come back to look for Barry's puppy - the split is unnecessary in the first place.

2. A lead-driven community puppy (someone with the same energy and dedication and resources and especially TIME like you - though I think it wouldn't be easy to find), appointed to "guide" over the community puppy. It will probably guarantee that at least some of the new features of Barry's puppy make it to the community puppy , however, I foresee that there will be effort duplication, splitting of focus and resources, and more confusion. Not forgetting one thing: being a managed process, there will always be people whose wants / needs / wishes cannot / will not be accomodated. Again, same issue as today. You can't please everybody.

Either way, not a good future to have. Please re-consider. Everyone today is already free to follow the leading edge, or to stay with what's working for them. There is not need to split it.
Fatdog64 forum links: [url=http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=117546]Latest version[/url] | [url=https://cutt.ly/ke8sn5H]Contributed packages[/url] | [url=https://cutt.ly/se8scrb]ISO builder[/url]

Sage
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#6 Post by Sage »

jb is right. Those of us with a few decades under our belts get heartily sick of committees inventing elephants. They argue incessantly about who should sit in the big chair, where to place the commas, what colour the brochure cover should be & co. Worse, every time new members are elected, they reinvent the wheel. Little is achieved. Hence my observation about the best distros being under the control of individuals. Committees, communities, these are the devices that hold back progress and innovation.

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gray
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Puppy Release cycle

#7 Post by gray »

Do things your way Barry. Personally I love the wild ride ...
You can get seriously addicted to the vibrancy of this forum and how quickly things happen. It's the good old JFDI philosophy of the ADF (Just F* Do It !)

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WhoDo
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#8 Post by WhoDo »

BarryK wrote:I've made a decision about something. I'm going to forge a schism between my own Puppy project and the "community Puppy project". I'll announce details soon.
Interesting situation. I will patiently await your announcement, albeit with some trepidation.

Personally, I find it strange that anyone would complain about the vigour and fervour in Puppy's release schedule. Why withhold valuable new features from a deserving and eager community of supporters?

One of the things I have learned about quality, and quality systems, is that they both depend on a process of continuous improvement. Is anyone seriously suggesting that Puppy 2.17 in its present form will not be an improvement over any previous version?

Barry, FWIW my advice is to ignore the bleats and just keep doing what you're doing and having fun doing it! I for one can appreciate the de Bono style in your approach to innovation in Puppy's development.

Cheers
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headfound
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#9 Post by headfound »

Barry, you're doing a great job and the release schedule keeps everything fresh.
Look how far puppy has come in a year

http://www.puppylinux.com/news/index.php?m=07&y=06
It only just got ntfs support!

I'm constantly surprised by puppy and hope to continue to be. Larger distros stagnate and become comparable to windows, which while a worthy goal in the 'big picture', makes them pretty boring.
Download a better Computer :)
[url=http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=rDTLJYDHX3g]Puppy Linux Song[/url]
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raffy
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some guides

#10 Post by raffy »

I hope what Barry refers to is more of a guide for contributors, specially what they can do on their own and what they can contribute to Barry. There are times when some suggestions touch on basic or strategic issues which would demand time to get sorted. Simply ignoring the issues may not be helpful, hence some guide is needed.

Barry's release schedule is just one of those items. There are more, and am sure Barry would have his list by now.

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drongo
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#11 Post by drongo »

I have XP, SUSE and Puppy on my work laptop. I need to use XP for special test software etc.

SUSE is slick, good-looking, running KDE (see above) supports virtually any hardware you care to throw at it, has books of support documentation, lots of web-presence, etc etc.

I download the latest SUSE as soon as it's stable (!).

I download the latest Puppies before they are stable. Sometimes I download betas, but I rarely find any bugs that someone else hasn't already reported.

Have a guess which Linux I use when I'm not running XP? (Clue, it's small, it boots quickly, it renders GUI windows much faster than the other two OSs and it opens applications instantly.)

Frankly, if Puppy only came out once a year I'd still use it because it's fun. Having a new release to look forward to every two months, new tricks to try, new applications and PETs is just fine by me and many others.

Yes, Puppy doesn't have a normal directory structure. Yes, Puppy runs as root. Yes, it's different. Know what, I don't care. If I wanted a Debian/Slackware/Fedora knockoff with a different wallpaper there's plenty of so-called distributions to choose from.

I don't think Puppy is about mindless conformity to someone else's idea of "how a software project should be run properly". I work for a company that produces software products (amongst other things). We do tons of testing, it takes months, we have a small team of people who do nothing else but test it all year. Guess what, it still has bugs.

Uninstall it and ask for your money back. If you've bought a disk from Barry send me the receipt and I'll give you your money back.

Thanks for all your work on the Forum, everyone appreciates it.

If this sounds a little angry, it is. I don't want Barry to pick up his ball and take it away. You can kick it around as much as you like but don't complain it's not as nice and round and shiny as the one the rich kid in the next street has. It's been a one man project for most of it's short life and every release is usually better than the previous one. It's one of the few software projects around where the hardware requirements get less with each new release.

There is no bug-free software on this planet. Why should Puppy be held to the same standards as big corporate projects? It's better despite the bugs.

drongo

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Eyes-Only
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#12 Post by Eyes-Only »

A very sad day to read those words that BarryK wrote. :cry: I just pray they don't come true as I fear it would be the first nail in the coffin to one of the greatest, most versatile, distros this planet has ever seen.

I likewise support the sentiment discussed here that just because a new distro comes out doesn't mean one has to immediately update to it---or at all for that matter.

Myself? I have Puppy 2.14 on the secondary computer, and Pizzapup 3.0.1 in LiveCD mode on this one. I also have the Community Edition 2.15 and 2.16 on CD. Doesn't mean that I use them. But they're there should I wish to, just like 2.17 will be sometime this weekend. Yet more than likely I'll still remain with what I have because I'm satisfied.

I guess I'm just a "Puppy Collector". ;)

Still though: If BarryK takes this to schism I see nothing but darker days ahead. So I implore you Barry, please don't do this. We've had a hard enough time around here already haven't we?

Amicalement,

Eyes-Only
"L'Peau-Rouge"
*~*~*~*~*~*
Proud user of LXpup and 3-Headed Dog. 8)
*~*~*~*~*~*

Henry
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#13 Post by Henry »

Barry,

I can't add anything to what our friends have said above. Each new version is an improvement, and makes my day. Puppy is superior and unique, and you make it so.

Henry

DaveDX
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#14 Post by DaveDX »

I would dare to say there are many Puppy users who don't post too often or not at all to this forum - for various reasons. I myself don't care for the medium; it's too easy to be misunderstood. Having said that - there are thousands of us who love Puppy Linux, use it daily and like the project just the way it is. The old saying applies nicely: if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it. Some people just need to go away.

I support Barry in what ever he decides. After all, it's his distribution. I'm thankful that he allows others, myself included, to use it for free. I have found it to be the best overall distribution for me.

Someone above noticed that Slackware and Mephis are both led by one person. It's no coincidence that both of these distributions are also excellent. Slackware is, by far, the best full blown linux distribution for the enterprise. Solid, stable and reliable. If that is your need, I can easily recommend it. For home/recreational use - you just can't beat Puppy.

Thanks Barry!

Dave

tony
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#15 Post by tony »

Hi,

I've had a lot of fun with puppy over the last few years, but we do have a tiger by the tail here.

Each new release is improved but underneath a lot of applications could do with updating.

Maybe we should be concentrating on getting a symilar system to apt-get install and apt-get update. Or would this turn a tiger into a carthorse?

Regards Tony.

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Flash
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#16 Post by Flash »

FWIW, I vote for Barry to do things whatever way he likes best, and not change just to please a few. It's what got us this far this fast. :lol: The Puppy community has few resources. Fragmenting it would dilute those resources even more.

jonyo

#17 Post by jonyo »

No doubt there's a time to move forward & a time to step back.
Course that is if one agrees with there's a time & place for everything.. :)
Napoleon & others didn't get it.

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WhoDo
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#18 Post by WhoDo »

tony wrote:Each new release is improved but underneath a lot of applications could do with updating.

Maybe we should be concentrating on getting a symilar system to apt-get install and apt-get update. Or would this turn a tiger into a carthorse?
Have you tried MU's Puppy Software Installer (PSI) yet? I believe the development team are working on ways to integrate that with PETget so there is a one-stop-shop for applications.

Hope that helps.
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iscraigh
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#19 Post by iscraigh »

Why would you need to separate puppy into a community version. I have a mythtv box running KnoppMyth another excellent project (2man) I don't upgrade to every new release I look at the improvements and if they apply to me I upgrade, generally about every 4 months. Puppy I have different machines run different versions or test out a new version to see what I like. Whodoo's look and feel add on is great and from that I add the programs I want and I have my own community version (albeit a community of one). The community has developed a variety of sfs files to make it easy for anyone.
Barry keep doing what you are doing the community is taking care of itself quite well. If I don't feel like upgrading, well guess what I don't have too.
I am all for healthy debate and I like the frequent releases it keeps it interesting (need a new pizza pup soon :))


Craig

jonyo

#20 Post by jonyo »

WhoDo wrote:the development team are working on ways to integrate that with PETget so there is a one-stop-shop for applications.
Outa curiosity, who's on this team?

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