One year with Puppy Linux (by Mark South)

[Lobster]

My fellow Swiss (I have dual nationality)
has written an interesting feature on this weeks Distrowatch about Puppy Linux
http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20070625

I would comment but I am unable to add comments at distrowatch

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 9060#96858
- kinda of ironic . . .

I think this is a great forum and community . . . Have I been taken in by the FUD?

Suddenly realise I am one of the moderators on this forum.
. . . must admit I do not do much moderating (practically none)

From what I remember Mark's posts are OK - they may well have been moved to better sections. I am glad someone does that - though it may be disconcerting . . . John Murga has a very open forum and to counter spam has added his own security code for us - is it going rogue?


Be Kind (suggestion)

[WhoDo]

I think this is a great forum and community . . . Have I been taken in by the FUD?

Nope. IMHO you are correct ... this is "a great forum and community".

I like Mark South, aka MS2K, but I don't agree with his assessment of the Puppy community. I like amish, too, and I definitely don't agree with an enormous amount of what he says about the community. Alien Jeff (the iconoclast) and I have had our moments, too, and I certainly don't share his cynical viewpoint on many people and issues ... but despite that I hope we have now settled into a sort of respectful truce.

These are all people with very strong opinions about the Puppy community, how it should be managed, and the people who administer its media, systems and communications. We've had ructions and schisms here before, as have many other online communities, and I'm sure we will do so again. Only people who care passionately are bothered to fight for what they believe. Puppy needs that sort of passion to grow and thrive.

That said, any community will be pretty much what YOU make it! The Puppy community is no different. If you behave with consideration and respect, you will be shown consideration and respect. If you insist passionately on YOUR position, to the exclusion of all others, you will likely have excluded only yourself.

I miss Mark. I was one newbie that he was willing to help when I first discovered Puppy. I am very grateful for that help, and I will never forget his kindness in offering it, but I am disappointed that Mark has let what he perceives as an injustice deprive both him and the community of the benefits that could have flowed had he chosen his battles with a little more circumspection. I'm even more disappointed that he has chosen to tar the whole community with the one battered brush of his own experience.

I do not wish to enter into a debate about the pros and cons of Mark's viewpoint expressed at Distrowatch. I only want it known that I disagree vehemently with that viewpoint, FWTW. I choose to believe that the Puppy community is way better than it has been portrayed in that article by one clearly disaffected former community member, however articulate or aggrieved he may be. And before anyone asks the question, no I am not going to reply to the article at Distrowatch. I'd prefer that its flames grow cold for lack of any fuel I might add to that particular fire, and urge others to adopt a similar approach.

[HairyWill]

My fellow Swiss (I have dual nationality)

Ahhh, you're a cheese eating clock watching Lobster.

Marks last post:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=15852
I think it is a shame that Mark posted that but he obviously feels very strongly. He contributed a lot here. Though he talks of 'the community' his beef seems to be with a few individuals. From the evidence available it is hard to get at 'the truth' whatever that is.

Interestingly he talks of being banned which seemed to be inconsistent with this:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 861#117861
GN2 another confrontational ex-member of the community.

I'm starting to wonder if there is a maximum life for here for many people. I suppose it is the same in any club or community that people move on. I think that Barry's development style adds somewhat to the pressure as well. Maybe sometimes those that feel able to contribute don't feel recognised. Why should Barry care, its his distro he can do what he likes with it. Though the interesting situation for Barry now is that the profile of this forum is now so large that it is hard to separate it from his work.

Maybe when I've got to 600 posts I'll feel the same way, I hope not as I've just realised I'm now on 570. It must be hard to feel that your words are being changed or censored but very often it is simpler just to turn your back and not to reply. There are fights you should try to win (your life, someone else's life) and fights that are really not that important. There is the odd person here that irritates me but an awful lot more that don't and I think I'll be staying.

[drongo]

On two occasions when I have posted something here I have noticed that I had the option of making it a "sticky". I notified the mods in my next posting. I think some of the problems experienced may have been down to this sort of intermittent fault giving individuals temporary moderator privileges which they may have misused in some way.

I've seen this bug twice and I'm not a particularly frequent poster.

Just a thought.

drongo

[WhoDo]

Maybe when I've got to 600 posts I'll feel the same way, I hope not as I've just realised I'm now on 570.

I don't think it's like some sort of 7-year-itch, Will. I have made over 1500 posts and I'm staying, too. Heck, Lobster's racked up well over 5,500 posts and he's still here!

[john biles]

Hello Everyone,
I don't know what happen here on this forum before I discovered Puppy in September 2006, but I have found this forum to be the best by along way over any other Linux forum I had joined before coming here.

As always there are two sides to any story in which each party feels they are in the right.

It saddens me to see someone discover Puppy and leave for another Distro not because of Puppy, but for other reasons.

[Sage]

I saw that on DistroWatch. Can't argue with what he says - we've all seen it happen. The GPL stuff bores me, probably because I don't care about it and that, because I don't understand it, either.
No doubt that Mark should be here, here & now. Academically, he outranks everyone else on this forum by a very large margin. John explicitly tells us he isn't banned, vide supra, so where is he?
Many's the time I've had to face down the bete noir of this forum and to account to John for my protestations. No idea what John has been saying to that guy, but apart from the continuing nuisance of random title changes, of which I have complained (not only bad form but also loses the highlighting of threads being followed), I've managed to avoid that moderator recently!
John also made a big mistake about Gn2 in my opinion - that guy outshine everyone else here in the literary and humour stakes.
With a couple of minor adjustments and a couple of apologies, John could probably reinstate this as the best forum of the bunch?
And if he gave us a MeanPup update, who knows.....

[Lobster]

Ahhh, you're a cheese eating clock watching Lobster.

Yes - do not eat this cheese . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilsit_cheese

Yuk!

I do have an affinity to cuckoo clocks (which originate in Bavaria). In fact I did try and get the design changed to a spitting camel - but that is another story . . .

I agree that the community is a great one, with a very few difficult individuals (me for example). We have grown.

For example IRC which I started, had Bladehunter as our first regular. He could be a little irregular but I got on OK with him . . . Now IRC has a larger usage but I am there very rarely. People are complaining of racist and abusive members.

Should racism be tolerated? How about foul language?

Racist bigots, zenophobes (those frightened of Buddhism) homophobes and the foul mouthed (if they had Tourette's syndrome that might be something else - but IRC Tourette's does not exist) are not encouraged or allowed on most IRC channels. It is up to the moderators to kick them off, so the channel can be used by children and the easily impressionable (me for example)

Maybe there is some reason they have not been? Or should we tolerate such unfortunate cases?
Maybe they could have their own little kennel?

[Lobster]

John also made a big mistake about Gn2 in my opinion - that guy outshine everyone else here in the literary and humour stakes.

I totally agree. I thought his posts were brilliant and said as much.

So many things are a question of perception . . . egos are fragile . . . geek egos are ultra fragile . . . Not enough attention and they are capable of all kinds of odd interpretations . . .

[bugman]

My computer has no idea what a GPL is. It just knows that it gets its work done faster with Puppy.

I know what a GPL is. And If I were picking a distro for purely political reasons I would go with something like BLAG or dyne:bolic.

But again, my work gets done faster with Puppy...

[tempestuous]

I have remained aloof of personal comments on this forum, but one can't help be affected by the personal stuff flying around.
And when I see negative comments posted to my own contributions (rare, I'm happy to say), I feel that my personal credibility and the credibility of my technical knowledge is compromised by responding. If I react to a rude comment or silly technical claim, I leave a perception that I may be just as rude or technically inept. I belive that my silence demonstrates that the poor comment is unworthy of my attention.
If nothing else, a flame war is avoided.

WhoDo used an important word: respect. Let's all use it, even when disagreeing.

And with due respect to Sage and Lobster, I disagree about Gn2.
I believe Gn2's negative commentary and disrespectful attitude is something this forum is better without.
Of his 900 or so posts I saw few attempts to help anyone. One has to wonder about the motives of some people for being involved in a forum at all. He reminded me of a forum member back in the ver0.x days called Atang.
It's not my intention to insult Gn2, but to duly criticise.
I belive John demonstrated sound management by banning Gn2, and it augers well for the level of behaviour we may expect in the future.

Whether we wish it or not, the forum is a community.

[Béèm]

I think nobody here has the right or should judge Marksouth2000 on doing the thing he did. It is common usenet practice to start playing on the person and not on the subject in a thread and I hope this wouldn't arrive in this forum.

I have been 'victim' as well from threads displaced or subjet changed by someone, probably a moderator.
Not being adviced of such doing by a simple PM I feel this as an impolite behaviour. At least the reason could be explained.

But I won't start a war for this, there are other means to have finally the answer wished.

I hope this forum (and community) continues as now and as said before in this thread, having respect one for each other will guarantee this.

[Lobster]

WhoDo used an important word: respect. Let's all use it, even when disagreeing.

And with due respect to Sage and Lobster, I disagree about Gn2.

That is the point. A moderator makes the decision and some agree others do not. The decision has a basis and has support (as you indicated). And using that all important word, we respect peoples opinions. Somebody has to make the decisions. Not everyone is kind enough to be a moderator. So I disagree with the decision but it is done. There are reasons for the decision. I am pleased John and Flash (our two main moderators) do such a great job. Others are welcome to be moderators too - just send a private message to John Murga.

[klhrevolutionist]

Everytime someone does something you all do not approve you try and convince yourselves and possibly others that your censoring is not bad and is really a good thing...



Dissent \Dis*sent"\, n.
1. The act of dissenting; difference of opinion; refusal to
adopt something proposed; nonagreement, nonconcurrence, or
disagreement.
[1913 Webster]

censor
n : a person who is authorized to read publications or
correspondence or to watch theatrical performances and
suppress in whole or in part anything considered obscene
or politically unacceptable

[Béèm]

I don't understand your comment, klhrevolutionist.
Wouldn't it be nice to have an attitude of comprehension, respect and tolerance here?

Hope you don't disagree with me.

[WhoDo]

Everytime someone does something you all do not approve you try and convince yourselves and possibly others that your censoring is not bad and is really a good thing...

Censorship for simple dissent is not right, Kenny ... I agree totally. OTOH, some censorship is important, especially in an online community, for the sake of maintaining functional community relations.

It is NOT "politically acceptable" to denigrate others, use racial epithets as weapons of debate, or otherwise devolve into making personal attacks when logic and reasoned argument have failed. Moderation IS important for online communities, if only to keep them functioning instead of imploding. I attribute none of those unacceptable failings to Gn2, BTW. Just making the point.

Society dictates that even Freedom must have its limits. Otherwise individuals would be free to commit murder, rape, incest and a whole host of other things generally abhorrent to most enlightened and caring individuals.

[alienjeff]

Iconoclast? Moi?

-aj

[kirk]

I usually stay out of these kind of things. But I'm going to put in my two cents on this.

I couldn't believe they would put that on their site. Really changes my opinion of Distrowatch. Guess there's no editorial control or sense of responsibility.

I completely agree with Tempestuous. When you have users who seem more interested in making usless snyde remarks, rather than helping other users. Banning people is unfortunate but necessary. It's a dirty job and I glad I don't have to do it. Thanks John.

I've had a post or two disappear, but I don't think it was macilious. Maybe the server crashed after I posted. Who knows. If I posted something with the purpose of agitating someone else and then it disappeared, perhaps I would think differently.

Many forums are not friendly places, people are routinely insulted and put down. Glad this one's is rarely like that.

[WhoDo]

Iconoclast? Moi?

[WhoDo]

I couldn't believe they would put that on their site. Really changes my opinion of Distrowatch. Guess there's no editorial control or sense of responsibility.

Here is Ladislav's response on Distrowatch:

On the subject of the Puppy article, it was a close call. I was reluctant to publish it at first (ask Mark), because it only describes a problem and doesn't offer any solutions. Also, I found the article a bit too long and tedious towards the end. But later I thought that this experience is something that many of us have had at one time or another on a Linux forum, so we can easily associate with this situation. This is indeed something of a problem in the Linux world - some people who try Linux for the first time might easily get disillusioned after interacting on a poorly moderated forum.

...and some people who may otherwise have benefited from finding and using Puppy Linux might instead have been "disillusioned", even before they tried the Puppy forum for themselves, simply because of a biased perspective published as a lead article by an ostensibly "neutral" and formerly respected distro reviewer.