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ChurchPup
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LOF


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 115
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon 07 May 2007, 15:35    Post_subject:  ChurchPup
Sub_title: Christian Puppy Derivative Discussion
 

Hey all.

This is the spin-off of the discussion I started on this in Off-Topic.

ChurchPup will be a christian puppy with a variety of Christian software and influences. I cannot do this on my own so hope that some of the community will help and discuss the issues raised in this thread.

First off, the problem with bible software.

Right here's the choices as I see it:
GnomeSword - http://gnomesword.sourceforge.net/ (Gnome)
BibleTime - http://www.bibletime.info/ (KDE)
Sword for Windows - http://www.crosswire.org/sword/ (Windows/WINE)
Bible Desktop - http://www.crosswire.org/bibledesktop/ (I don't quite understand how it works)

Which one?

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iamwm


Joined: 07 May 2007
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Tue 08 May 2007, 01:08    Post_subject: Online Bible
Sub_title: Bible Possibilities
 

There are several bible programs for Windows, but most of them are expensive, even for the basics. One that is free for the basics is Online Bible, which started back when online meant it was on a computer, and the internet was still a thing of Military and Educational institutions (if that).

Another, possibly better idea, would be to reinvent the wheel. Seriously, The world of Bible Software is not actually very good in Linux, and those that do exist are no very portable. United we stand can apply to any group and all Christians everywhere using the same software and primary translation of Holy Scripture may sound like a dream, but it could be a reality. We could even choose a worthy start and help make it great, like
GnomeSword - http://gnomesword.sourceforge.net/

Since it's Free and Open Source, and GTK makes it likely an easy mark to get it working on Windows. Hopefully GTK will be fully functional on OS X soon, but even if it's not, many Mac users have X11 installed and can run the Unix version, or some have Windows or Linux in Parallels, so they could run those versions.

The key is to make the basics simple. It should be as easy as picking up a bible and reading it. Simpler; the Table of Contents, Index, and foot notes / cross references should be clickable, and support labeled bookmarks. Those are the basics for any software Book. Come to think of it, all that can be done in a PDF! Anyone can feel free to run with that Idea. I'll look into it too in my limitted spare time. Then you'd have all the features of your PDF reader, which most support linking.

Then again, maybe another solution would be Flash files that link.

Hey! Now that I think of it, there is already the NET bible in HTML:
http://www.bible.org/netbible/
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=3086

Perhaps HTML versions would work well for all translations (I'm not a fan of copyright on Holy Scriptures, even though I understand it helps assure quality copies which is especially important in the early years of a new translation).


I guess you can tell I'm not planning on going back and rewriting this, I'm writing as I think and I'm brave enough to just post it :-)

----------------- A little of my geek history -------------------
I started on an Apple IIe in 4th Grade, not at home, IN the 4th grade. Worked on them and Mac Plus, Mac SE, then went without a couple years and finally got my own computer... a Windows machine in 1998 and that same year I heard about Linux, bought a CD copy from Staples (they didn't know what it was), and taught myself how to use it (took a couple weeks to find a reference to ls and cp since they're different then DOS and the RedHat manual was as thick as the forest that was cut down to make it), but then I was off like a herd of turtles. I did eventually bring Linux into our Web Design company (company died a year after due to the dot bomb). I tried OS X in 2002, but was too locked into Windows again by then.

Now that Mac has gone Intel I got a MacBook (core Duo) on which I run OS X, Windows XP, and a couple versions of Linux including Puppy, SimplePup, and GraphPup. I also still use that 15" flat panel iMac from 5yrs ago. Works like a champ with the latest OS X on it, just no Parallels since it's not an intel CPU. I even upgraded the iMac to 120 G internal, 600Gig FireWire, and have a 160 Gig internal coming for this MacBook to hold me over till OS X 10.5 comes out this October when I'll hopefully be able to buy a MacBook Pro with Backlit LCD (I sure hope they have LED backlit LCDs by then).

Just recommended Puppy 2 to a friend today to rescue a Linux Partition since his Windows boot drive got formated and Windows wiped out the Boot Loader. There are better ways to solve his issue, but he just wanted the quickest access to his data for now.

Edited_time_total
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Nathan F


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 1760
Location: Wadsworth, OH (occasionally home)

PostPosted: Tue 08 May 2007, 02:49    Post_subject:  

I can't get too involved with the project because of time constraints but I would like to offer some assistance where possible. In fact I've already compiled some packages for Puppy that you may be interested in.

sword-1.5.9 is the framework upon which most bible study programs are built on.

clucene-core-0.9.16a is a text search tool used by at least two of the frontends to sword that I know of.

bibletime-1.6.4 is the KDE frontend to sword.

There are basically three frontends to Sword that are usable right now on Linux. There is Jsword, which requires Java, Gnomesword, built on Gnome, and Bibletime, KDE based. The problem is that all three require heavy overhead for their dependencies. I'm going to look into the other two as well but I don't have a lot of hope for Gnomesword based on the last time I tried to compile Gnome. I'd love to see a desktop independent frontend here.

As I mentioned previously I have fooled around a bit with Dansgaurdian in the past also. It requires a proxy in order to do it's filtering, but rather than Squid someone suggested trying Tinyproxy. When time permits I'm going to try it again. I need something like this installed soon anyway, to keep my daughter away from certain sites she keeps sneaking to when she thinks I'm not looking.

I'd like to offer anything I have done to create Grafpup-2.0 towards this. In particular if there were to be a content filter of any sort it would not make sense to have everybody log in as root, because then your kids (for instance) could just bypass the proxy since root can do anything. But that's just an offer, nothing more. I don't want to control your project in any way.

I'll provide some packages for what I have if you're interested.

Nathan

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ricstef

Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 52
Location: Woodstock, ON. Canada

PostPosted: Tue 08 May 2007, 02:55    Post_subject: Church Pup
Sub_title: candidate for a Bible app
 

Hi LOF,
I think you are starting a worthwhile project that many will benefit from. Looking at your list of canditates, I would suggest 'Bible Desktop' might be a good place to start. The site you point to says that it is Java driven. Therefore, all you need is a Java enabled browser and their software. This app should run on any platform.

Cheers,
Richard.
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Nathan F


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 1760
Location: Wadsworth, OH (occasionally home)

PostPosted: Tue 08 May 2007, 03:16    Post_subject:  

Quote:
Therefore, all you need is a Java enabled browser and their software.

Well, no, not a java enabled browser at all. You need the java runtime (@ 80MB) and the sword framework. This is a component of Jsword actually.

Nathan

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cb88


Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 1169
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue 08 May 2007, 08:08    Post_subject:  

Don't put the NIV or any "modern" trasnslation in. Why, the NIV leaves out tons of stuff (Jesus is left out or changed to somthing "like a good man"about 90 times. They even had the arrogance to leave out entire verses and leave in the verse number with a blank!) There is absolutely nothing wrong or hard to understand about the KJV it fairly acurate and was translated by people who actually cared. If you don't understand the bible don't go changing the Word of God around till it makes sence just ask questions untill you know the answer. When the US goveernment dumbed down math in elementary schools calling it "New Math" we all see(americans anyway) how that turned out very few students can actaully do math in their head or on paper but "need a calculator" well what if you put bad data in the calculator gives you a bad answer how will you check it. well most of you older people or people form other countries will have a pretty good idea what the calculator sould say before you hit enter right. The old way of learning math works. The KJV works. If it ain't broke don't fix it. Please if you value your place in eternity leave out every translation but the KJV (Read the last few verses of Revalations) every other "modern" translation changes the meaning of the words so much I can't even say that it is the Blbie any more

1983 An Inclusive Language Lectionary [ILL]
1985 New Jerusalem Bible [NJB]
1987 New Century Version [NCV]
1986 International Children’s Bible [ICB] (aka The Odyssey Bible)
1986 New American Bible, [NAB]
1989 Revised English Bible [REB]
1990 New Revised Standard Version [NRSV]
1992 Good News Bible [1992 Revision] [GNB]
1992 Today’s English Version [TEV]
1993 The Message
1994 The Inclusive New Testament [INT]
1995 Contemporary English Version [CEV]
1995 New American Standard Bible Update [NASBU]
1995 God's Word [GW]
1996 New International Reader's Version [Nirv] (Note. After negative reaction to the "gender-inclusive" 1995 version of the NirV, in 1998 the NIV crew updated the NirV removing much of the "gender-inclusive" readings.)
1996 New International Version, Inclusive Language Edition [NIVI] published ONLY in Great Britain by Hodder & Stoughton, London
1995 New Testament and Psalms, An Inclusive Version [NTPI]
1996 New Living Translation [NLT]
2002 Today's New International Version [TNIV]
All of the above versions, to some extent:

Incorrectly neuter the clear, masculine Greek text. For example, the singular, masculine, "generic he / his / him" pronouns are incorrectly distorted to read neuter, plural, "they / them / their" or neuter, second person "you". This is done thousands of times.
Incorrectly neuter the masculine Greek text for ‘man / men / mankind" to read "people / self / human / mortal, et al".
Incorrectly neuter the masculine Greek text for "father" to read "ancestors / parents / et al".

these are a few of the "bibles" that do not adhere to the original text.
read more here:http://www.hellpage.com/index1.htm
here is a very very good example of what the NIV and other "modern" tranlations do.
http://www.hellpage.com/tniv.htm

PS I will try out some alpas/betas in vbox(cds are expensive).
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LOF


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 115
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue 08 May 2007, 11:30    Post_subject:  

Right. Firstly, which is the smallest to add to Puppy? KDE, Gnome, Java or Wine?

Also, I think a list of all features is also needed.

- Bible Software
- Parental Controls/Internet Filtering
- Themed Web Browser
- Bible Verse Feature
- Themed desktop/appearance
- Anything else anybody can come up with...

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Nathan F


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 1760
Location: Wadsworth, OH (occasionally home)

PostPosted: Tue 08 May 2007, 12:03    Post_subject:  

Quote:
Right. Firstly, which is the smallest to add to Puppy? KDE, Gnome, Java or Wine?

Actually, that would be wine at around ten or eleven MB, but that limits you to non-native applications, many of which are not at all free. In fact, as was pointed out earlier, a lot of them are rather expensive.

I think Gnome is probably the least likely choice, although Gnomesword could be a starting point for something a little more desktop independent since it is based in gtk+. I had no problems compiling Bibletime for KDE but it crashes when using the search feature. I now have Jsword running and it seems to be a better application.

So from where I'm standing right now, I think it would come down to Wine or Java. Someone should test a few things under Wine to see how usable they would be.

I'll add another novel suggestion now. You could adapt the "fortune" program to use bible verses instead of fortunes, and that way quote a bible verse every time a user logs on. For those unaware of what fortune is it can be found on most BSD unices and Slackware, and gives a (not so) witty fortune from a rather large dtabase each time you log in.

Nathan

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charliet

Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Tue 08 May 2007, 21:52    Post_subject:  

Something I've done, which may be of interest, is installed Wine and the Windows version of E-Sword, which is a phenomenal program and free. It functions well in Puppy, with the only exception being if I minimize the window, I can't get it back again.

I'm not tremendously conversant in Linux, so someone may be able to quickly figure out a solution to that quirk.

Hope this helps,

Charlie T.
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afgs


Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 124

PostPosted: Wed 09 May 2007, 02:30    Post_subject:  

Idea It would be nice if you can also put in a book keeping program (Gnucash maybe?) that tailored to do churches' book keeping. Its just "cash-basis" keeping notes on the donations and expenses basically, like all the social (non-profit) organizations.
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ricstef

Joined: 01 Aug 2006
Posts: 52
Location: Woodstock, ON. Canada

PostPosted: Wed 09 May 2007, 10:46    Post_subject: ChurchPup
Sub_title: Oops ...
 

Oops, Embarassed

Quote:

Well, no, not a java enabled browser at all. You need the java runtime (@ 80MB) and the sword framework.


My mistake, thanks for your kind way of correction, Nathan.

Cheers,
Richard.
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LOF


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 115
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed 09 May 2007, 14:51    Post_subject:  

So what is the general consensus? Wine with ESword or Java with JSword?
Plus: What bugs do people know of in each?

The list as it stands:
- Bible Software
- Parental Controls/Internet Filtering
- Themed Web Browser
- Bible Verse Feature (possibly fortune)
- Themed desktop/appearance
- GnuCash
- Presentation software possibly (thinking about use in church services)

Thanks to all those helping out.

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LOF


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 115
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed 09 May 2007, 15:09    Post_subject:  

Nathan F wrote:
I'll add another novel suggestion now. You could adapt the "fortune" program to use bible verses instead of fortunes, and that way quote a bible verse every time a user logs on. For those unaware of what fortune is it can be found on most BSD unices and Slackware, and gives a (not so) witty fortune from a rather large dtabase each time you log in.


Someone's already done a KJV version. Haven't looked into it yet. http://sourceforge.net/projects/fortunebible/

Also seems to be similar stuff here: http://www.thelinuxlink.net/l4c/programs.html

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cb88


Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 1169
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed 09 May 2007, 15:23    Post_subject:  

E-sword - maybe, but it would probably be really slow on older pc's, it is not "fast" (slow to load) on a sempron 1.8 ghz 512 ram /w XP, means I'am also against java maybe a murgaLua app, that would be portable. It would work no linux and windows. From what I hear it is easy to use and fast/flexible.

murgaLua puppy control center implements a search function and looks good low memory requirements (around 500K way less than java) for murgaLua a plus.

what is needed is a text viewer with indexing, searching and link insertion (directly into the text little butttons for greek, comentary, pronuciation ect...) or per verse links in a separate pane (might be faster link insertion in text might cause rendering issuses-speculation)


KJV is the only english translation,it is the standard, all else is confusion because they are not the standard and alter the meaning conveyed in original text. The devil is the father of confusion therefore all non KJV english translations are of the devil. Don't tell me that it is not confusing when you read out of another translation and the preacher preaches out of the KJV if he is not useing the KJV then let him read the last few verses of Revalations and repent.

The truth may hurt but that makes it no less true.

Linux is not confusion it is mulit-threaded collaboration for fun or profit(monetary or otherwize).

theme christian oriented? no. Themes like icewm vistablack ect... yes.
anybody out there know asm? linux asm games would be great. better size/features ratio.
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afgs


Joined: 30 Mar 2007
Posts: 124

PostPosted: Thu 10 May 2007, 02:25    Post_subject:  

Firefox with bookmarks to "Our Daily Bread" (www.rbc.org/odb/odb.shtml), christian cliparts, sermons and downloadable gospel songs & lyrics (for presentations, sermons, choirs, church bulettins, etc), plus add-ons for streaming gospel radio.
How about DVD and MP3 players to watch "Amazing Grace" the movie and hear the well-known hymn?
And speaking of movies, can it also have a simple photo and movie editing softwares to edit our church archives. It should recognize the camera on connection.
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