What does it take to make computers more accessible to women

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GuestToo · #31 Post by **GuestToo** » Thu 08 Mar 2007, 23:26

i don't know ... i just used the configuration files that i had already set up, so it knew all my accounts and buddies

i just tried it with a clean configuration folder (i renamed /root/.gaim) and i set up my Yahoo IM account, id and password, with no problems

amish · #32 Post by **amish** » Fri 09 Mar 2007, 05:04

On the other hand guys, assuming you have a woman in your life, how often does she ask you what you are thinking? That is one of those favorite questions, because she wants to know what makes you tick and get that warm fuzzy feeling that the two of you have a great relationship because you are willing to tell her. How often does it happen that you were just daydreaming, or not really thinking of anything in particular? If you're like me that's more often than not. Unfortunately most women have no frame of reference to this concept because they can't imagine ever having their mind empty and devoid of all the hundreds of things that might normally be taking place there. So what happens? She gets insulted and mad that you aren't willing to let her in and share your innermost thoughts and feelings with her.

from talking with women i've been with, i know they do this as a geniune expression of compassion and concern, and i appreciate that. however, you should not ask questions when you do not want the answer, and if you ask a question and the answer is not something you can handle emotionally, because you are insecure about it -and everyone male and female is insecure about something. the most common insecurity for males? probably size... women? well, let's just say that men never ask "do these trousers make my genitals look small?" but i totally blame society for putting real women up against caricature-like images of women's bodies. give me a plus-size model, really. more realistic than kate moss, no offense. almost every day i walk by a picture of a really beautiful plus size model, and smile, because it's always the same model (they change the sign but it's always her) and she's just great. and she looks like a real person, unlike most models.

anyway, so i refuse to let someone put me in a position where over and over she asks me to say something that might be hurtful. i mean "what are you thinking about?" seems innocuous enough. but then if she's going to be sad because she wanted me to be thinking about a particular thing (and the odds are against it) and it's going to (needlessly) make her sad, yeah i'm not going to make something up. but i will refuse to answer. and it takes a LOT of nerve to refuse. but i see such a line of questioning (to the end of being disappointed as a rule) to be a well-intentioned abuse of the question. and if that question is abused, i will simply remove its ability.

i like to connect with a person, not just be superficial and chatter idly (i love idle chatter too, of course, but not as a rule that's never broken.) and i like to be honest and open, but i do it on my terms. after all, at the end of the day, she's a person, i'm a person, and i don't want to control her life or have her control mine. and that's not an easy thing to express. but if you really insist, and it really matters to you, you will find someone (eventually) that allows you that. so instead of being pried open by force, i let her open me up by honoring my terms, and the result of not abusing the question means: she doesn't have to ask. i am happy to tell her when i'm thinking about her, and it makes more sense to me, and it gives her less to be (needlessly) unhappy about. the real question: does it work? ha, not with everyone. it really works in theory... in practice there is plenty of evidence, but the best indicator is time. it takes being patient enough to find someone who is extremely special. if you're already married, do it with humor. and watch your back

and i didn't tell you anything.

rarsa · #33 Post by **rarsa** » Fri 09 Mar 2007, 11:56

Nathan F wrote:I've developed a habit of stopping every thirty secons or so just to make sure she isn't glaring at me.

I thought it was just me!.

I call it serially multitasking. As oposed to multitasking in parallel.

The answer to the question "what are you thinking" is even worst when you are not thinking about what they are telling you. (because you already had your mind in a different issue).

It is funny because at work I usually prefer a women managers. Besides being better at multitasking, they also seem to know better when to cut a discussion that has been going for too long. We (men) seem to be more selfconscious about being rude and cutting a conversation and more prone to get into the details that may not matter to half the people in a meeting. I learned some time ago to say "let's talk about it off line" but it didn't come naturally to me.

HairyWill · #34 Post by **HairyWill** » Fri 09 Mar 2007, 13:03

rarsa wrote:
Nathan F wrote:I've developed a habit of stopping every thirty secons or so just to make sure she isn't glaring at me.
I thought it was just me!

Ahh but by that time its too late.

women and computers
Seriously, I don't think computers really need to be made more accessible to women, any more than they do for black people, or one legged homosexuals. Generally all users want a computer that 'just works'. With the exception of the few twisted individuals (myself included) that hang about in online forums looking for broken software and that which could be made better. So, we should continue to strive to make puppy just work for the benefit of ALL personkind.

women and the puppy community
Much of the linked material in this thread is discussing the experience of women in communities of computer tinkerers that are mainly male. It is somewhat understandable that they standout out, though they should not be discriminated against or harassed (everyone has a right to expect that).

In general I think this community is welcoming to all newcomers and they get treated fairly by longstanding members. We do have a number of occurances of newcomers appearing to be rude to our community. Sometimes this might be because of cultural misunderstandings. As a whole rude posters are given civilised responses until someone suggests that they might behave differently. There are occasions when I think people are too quick to anger, they might consider not saying anything for 24 hours, there's always the chance that the problem might go away or that OP might apologise.

There is a separate issue of the occasionally more heated debates that take place. These are almost always old sparing partners squaring up for a brawl and tend not to pick on new members. Some people join in, others throw in the odd punch to keep things going or help out their side, others may stand on the side lines and enjoy watching, some shake their heads and others get angry. It is a shame that these events show up in a list of recent postings. It is a bit like going to a bar and seeing people fighting in the street outside, I wouldn't want to go in for a quiet drink and I'm sure my wife/mother/sister wouldn't. Maybe we need a back room or a 'fight club' to allow these testosterone fueled activities somewhere to evaporate.

Don't get me wrong I'm strongly in favour of debate and healthy argument. If you are going to make unsubstantiated claims then you should be asked to justify them.

We all need to remember that some people take it personally and get offended more easily and our female members probably have much more chance of falling into this category than our male members.

kermitfan22 · #35 Post by **kermitfan22** » Fri 09 Mar 2007, 19:18

Just two things:

Will, very well said.

I never ask "honey, what are you thinking", I learned a long time ago that I don't really want to know the answer, anyway. I ask more guided questions like "Do you think we should fix the furnace or buy a new one?" Gives him the chance to snap out of what ever train his thought is on (even if it's sitting at the station waiting to move).

Nathan F · #36 Post by **Nathan F** » Fri 09 Mar 2007, 22:14

I never ask "honey, what are you thinking"

Men sometimes train women also...

Nathan

#37 Post by **Flash** » Sat 10 Mar 2007, 03:36

Is that related to creative incompetence? (the fine art of screwing up just badly enough that you're never asked to do it again.)

cobelloy · #38 Post by **cobelloy** » Sat 10 Mar 2007, 05:12

well, for a thread about women and computers there has been a lot of responding by men!!

surely there are more than just a few of us girls who are interested?

i first tried linux about five years ago, with mandrake 9.2 and it was pretty crap, but despite that I recieved plenty of kind help via forum and irc and managed to get a win/linux crossover network to work, and a dual booting win98/linux computer to work

however the linux was not that useful and I didnt try it again until ubuntu came out

after trying to make ubuntu be useful on an old p2 by reducing it to icewm with idesk i discovered puppy, but did not stick with it as it only had vesa then.

when puppy included the xorg video drivers i really switched to it properly

what i find off-putting:

1) asking a question on an irc tech channel and getting the following answers:
-try googling it (because i already have if im in an irc channel)
-rtfm (without a link to the manual - like kermitfan said)
-or any variation of a statement of question asking ettiquitte

2) people telling me that all i need to do is put the time into it and then I will work it out myself, because i am busy, I have a household to run, a 3yo child I look after on my own - most of the time (my husband works away for two weeks at a time), lots of animals to tend to, a job and the remnants of a life

3) gui's that sacrifice a great deal of sparkle for a little bit of extra speed (one ofthe first things I do with puppy is replace jwm with icewm or xfce, and rox with 2.5 - i believe 2.13/14 have rox 2.5 already)

I have just given one of our old laptops to my mum with puppy installed, she is not even the slightest bit interested in operating systems and their workings, all she cares about is that it starts when you click the on button, and once its on you can send emails, talk on msn and skype, write and print letters, and play with photos, she cares not if it is windows or linux, or for that matter if it fast or slow

for men wanting ordinary women to use linux and not windows, remember they probably dont care either, all they need is someone to set it up ready to use and they will use it

how do you make computers more accessible to women? well I think you dont, women know where computers are, i may as well say how do I make big shopping malls more accessible to men?

jason.b.c · #39 Post by **jason.b.c** » Sat 10 Mar 2007, 05:40

Wich chat room..? #puppylinux-<ending> or ##puppylinux

cobelloy wrote:
what i find off-putting:

1) asking a question on an irc tech channel and getting the following answers:
-try googling it (because i already have if im in an irc channel)
-rtfm (without a link to the manual - like kermitfan said)
-or any variation of a statement of question asking ettiquitte

As well as - Being told:

this is ##pupplinux , not #<certain chat room for my system> .!

hey , go to #<again , that certain chat room> and start talking about puppy linux and see how you are treated there..!

<specific screen name> slaps her ignore button on <my screen name>

Now back on topic...

i may as well say how do I make big shopping malls more accessible to men?

Put a 69 Camaro SS in the lobby entrance...

Billwho? · #40 Post by **Billwho?** » Sat 10 Mar 2007, 10:05

jason.b.c wrote:
i may as well say how do I make big shopping malls more accessible to men?
Put a 69 Camaro SS in the lobby entrance...

Sorry Jason that wont't make them more accessable but it will make them more appealing, much more appealing

kermitfan22 · #41 Post by **kermitfan22** » Sat 10 Mar 2007, 12:46

Quote:
<specific screen name> slaps her ignore button on <my screen name>

Shame on you Jason. How dare you take a quote SOOOOOO far out of context?

I think if you re-read the ENTIRE conversation carefully you will discover that <your screen name> was being quite rude. At least that was how it felt to ME. I RARELY mute someone. But you had us chasing our tails for like 10 minutes trying to figure out why your system wouldn't do something, and after all was said and done, you weren't even in Puppy! How can we help someone if they don't give us all the clues?!?

ANY user at ANY time is alowed to place the ignore on someone else. It has little to NOTHING to do with "What does it take to make computers more accessible to women", but I thank you for attacking me on my very first series of posts in this forum.

NO FREAKING WONDER WOMEN DON'T FEEL WELCOME!!

#42 Post by **Flash** » Sun 11 Mar 2007, 03:47

Maybe Jason has unintentionally provided an answer to the question of why women don't seem to be interested in computers.

kermitfan22, I hope you won't let the rude dogs chase you away from the Puppy forum. Most of us really appreciate active members who are as articulate as you. Perhaps you would consider working on Puppy's Documentation Project?

#43 Post by **Flash** » Tue 01 May 2007, 20:19

This may be a bit off-topic, but I can't find a more appropriate place for it.

If anything qualifies as terrorism, this is it.

The ability to anonymously post in a public forum is apparently more than many people can handle. They go off their meds, post vicious and uncalled-for attacks against people, especially women, and generally behave in a way that makes me pray that there is no God. I'd be scared, as a member of the same race, to ask Saint Peter to let me through the Pearly Gates.

rarsa · #44 Post by **rarsa** » Thu 03 May 2007, 03:06

Flash,

Thanks for posting this. I knew there was some harrasement going on in forums and chat rooms, but I attributed it to overhormonal idiots.

This article shines a totally different light on this dark issue.

Quite sad.

Billwho? · #45 Post by **Billwho?** » Thu 03 May 2007, 09:02

Whats their problem? Are they scared the girls might get their jobs or something? With an attitude like that it's the least they deserve!

slvrldy17 · #46 Post by **slvrldy17** » Sun 06 May 2007, 05:56

Given that life, what with earning a living, running a home, dealing with scheduling issues for a large church, is hectic enough what do I really want? I think Cobelloy said it all with this comment -

I have just given one of our old laptops to my mum with puppy installed, she is not even the slightest bit interested in operating systems and their workings, all she cares about is that it starts when you click the on button, and once its on you can send emails, talk on msn and skype, write and print letters, and play with photos, she cares not if it is windows or linux, or for that matter if it fast or slow

I might add that I really don't have the time or patience to write scripts, tweak the system or applications - I need it to work with a minimum of thought or trouble. Unlike some I could not care less about games or chat - in a windows system the first thing I get rid of is the games and chat - What do I need/use? Office applications that are fully compatible with current MS formats - word, power point and excel. A first rate, easy to use media player - spend some time playing with Windows media player 11 and you will see what I mean - insert a CD/DVD into the drive and it opens ready to play. Or open it from the menu/quick launch - select Library>Artist and select an album to play - done. Add web browsing and a good email client and my basic needs are covered. Once in a while I need to use a photo organizing/editing program and Paint.net and Picasa are all I need - Gimp or Photoshop are overkill. To sum it up I'll use a term my brother is fond of - the KISS system - short for Keep It Simple Stupid!

What do I ask from forums like this? Mostly simple courtesy - when I ask a question its because I really don't know the answer and have likely already Googled and checked FAQ's without finding it. In that this forum is way ahead of most - there are a few that are less than patient but most of you are gentlemen - even if my questions aren't always as clear as they should be. Keep up the good work guys - I'll keep dropping in as time allows - Puppy has great potential and much of what I do through my church involves helping folks who can't afford new high tech equipment - Puppy is ideal for many of them. Thanks for your time.

BladeHunter · #47 Post by **BladeHunter** » Sat 12 May 2007, 09:53

I unchained my woman from the Out house sink

Linux_chick · #48 Post by **Linux_chick** » Tue 15 May 2007, 14:37

How did i come to miss this 'enthralling' thread. I thoroughly enjoyed it and wish i had seen it earlier.
Yes! yes! yes!, It isnt so much as making it simpler....the software just needs to be more appealing, direct (without the zero's and one's jargon). I do not like microsoft....ewwwww 'BARF', but the colouful layout of all grabs youngsters and everyones attention in the first few seconds....eeeeep. The technical aspects and language, you are all used to but for the every day people trying to get to grips...they find it hard to start with and get tempted by the useability and advertising of microsoft. We lose a lot of people who would have been smitten by puppy but got bored working it all out. Soz...hope this dos'nt offend anyone?
Am still here and working in the back ground....teaching my self programming inbetween music work.

Its all 'fantastic', what you all do...keep the momentum, and determination.....and one day we will 'take over the world'......hehehehehehe......

Victoria
xx

Linux_chick · #49 Post by **Linux_chick** » Sun 17 Jun 2007, 22:12

Awww...no one posted to my last thread here, but not to worry..Ive just seen under cybercafe under 30pound thread, that one of the key points has been fulfilled with ex at the cafe we worked in. The soft ware has been changed to make it easier and more workable...part of my dream has come true. Its not making it more accessible to women, its for all ages and it isnt the computers, its the good software that counts...lol.

Yes...keep it coming!!!!!

WhoDo · #50 Post by **WhoDo** » Mon 18 Jun 2007, 01:34

Linux_chick wrote:The soft ware has been changed to make it easier and more workable...part of my dream has come true. Its not making it more accessible to women, its for all ages and it isnt the computers, its the good software that counts...lol.

Yes...keep it coming!!!!!

Hi Vik,

Give EZpup a try. You might like what it does for your Puppy system.

Cheers

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What does it take to make computers more accessible to women

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