Puppy 2.15CE "Viz" - Development Ideas/Requests

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WhoDo
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#286 Post by WhoDo »

pupshock wrote:any other ideas how to get it done?
How about providing a link to Survey Monkey? Their polling features are way more sophisticated than you could reasonably expect in any BB software, and it's free to use AFAIK.
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richard.a
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#287 Post by richard.a »

veronicathecow - a set of very good points.

But, may I make the observation that all Community Editions historically appear to have been different in detail from the base version puppylinux distributions, and also from each other, as they all fulfil specific and different purposes.

And because of its completely modular nature, Linux in general is fragmented into hundreds of different arrangements of applications, utilities, and the bits and pieces which make each different group of users happy.

Discussion has occurred over browsers, email clients, and so on, for this particular Community Edition. In discussion changes from the "norm", it is essential that we should make sure that changes should only be "best practice". May I use as an example your thoughts on Networking; imho this is something which should not be tampered with, because we have finally got to the point where it works seamlessly, "with a minimum of fuss" as an airline used to say in its advertising.

What do I mean? Just that ethernet (using Cat5e cable) is the standard around the world, slowly being superceded by wireless.

If you ask specifically for USB connection, this is something not often encountered in professional installations, and is very different for setting up and so on, because it is technically a "poor man's LAN" type of connection.

In five short years of my networking experience, I've only seen one example of an USB networking connection, and that was done on the cheap by a fellow who had little expertise or experience in this field, and used second-hand hardware which had been discarded.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not being critical of USB connections, merely this fellow's choice of hardware and his practical way of installing and setting up.

So I believe we should be very careful before polling what we would personally like to use, but rather (as the 2.15ce team leader -WhoDo - has pointed out), it must be our opinions of what the project should achieve.

Individually we can always apply add-ons to the programs in the standard puppy developed by Barry to suit what we want to use ourselves.

I hope nobody takes offence at the points I raised.

Richard in Adelaide.
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pupshock
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#288 Post by pupshock »

Yessir, I'll look into a SurveyMonkey survey.
I think it'll be useful to give developers an idea
of what is important in puppy, and repeated surveys
can show how it evolves in time.
It's not aimed specifically for 1.5CE, or even CE at all.

pup2learn222
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puppy 2.15ce

#289 Post by pup2learn222 »

Hi all I been thinking instead of making the puppy iso so big, could it be done another way & in my oppinion get the same result at the same time.

Making the iso with everything on it seems a waste if some one will not be using those apps.

1. Why not concentrate the best of your work to fix the so called bugs & make the iso better & smaler. <which should load faster> and d/l faster too for dial up's.

(By bugs I mean why should a simple sound card like awe 32 or 64 be so hard to set up, the wizzard doesnt work cant find the isa card,however if you put modprobe sb in terminal then sound works.Only by editing a file & adding it will return on next boot, how is a newbie just trying out feeling about now.)
Shouldnt this be addressed while booting up without intervention.


2. Put the apps & the pup & pupget files on a seperate downloadable ISO with all the libraries to support the pups or pupget.For a dial up user if they need it.

3. Also combine the 2 above to be placed on the cd iso this way once it is burned everything can be added without the hassle of finding it on the servers out there.By doing it this way the servers will be less in demand & we users would have a copy on our cd's which may help others that need something when the servers are down. Maybe set something up with bittorrent use.

Just burning the iso for a light use & saving to hd file seems a waste of a cd why not put the cd to good use. <This way a person setting up a friends machine to hd can do the whole process without the internet service, just in case they are on dial up too. It just makes sense to me.

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Re: puppy 2.15ce

#290 Post by richard.a »

pup2learn222 wrote:Making the iso with everything on it seems a waste if some one will not be using those apps.
That is why the regular puppy does not do this. There are a few choices, yes. But nowhere near what is provided in larger distributions of Linux. We are discussing a specific customised version of puppy here :)
pup2learn222 wrote:By bugs I mean why should a simple sound card like awe 32 or 64 be so hard to set up, the wizzard doesnt work cant find the isa card,however if you put modprobe sb in terminal then sound works.Only by editing a file & adding it will return on next boot, how is a newbie just trying out feeling about now.)
Sounds like you have had difficulties with your sound card being detected.

The only "legacy" (ISA) card I can't get to work through running the wizard is an Aztech which came as OEM with HP's Vectras VL series. I've personally had no sound cards, either PCI or onboard (like AC97) that haven't been correctly detected. My Aztech card isn't detected by ANY *nix OS except for SuSE Linux, the first one which I tried was 9.0

pup2learn222 wrote:2. Put the apps & the pup & pupget files on a seperate downloadable ISO with all the libraries to support the pups or pupget.For a dial up user if they need it.
For distribution to friends, I burned the version 2.02 SeaMonkey edition to a CD AS AN ISO along with all the add-ons I thought they might find useful. I figured they could extract the ISO and burn it to their own CD to run.

pup2learn222 wrote:3. Also combine the 2 above to be placed on the cd iso this way once it is burned everything can be added without the hassle of finding it on the servers out there.By doing it this way the servers will be less in demand & we users would have a copy on our cd's which may help others that need something when the servers are down. Maybe set something up with bittorrent use.
Sounds like you are getting away from the Joe User concept of simplicity where someone who knows nothing about computers can slip it into the CD drive, start the computer, and try the OS without needing to do anything else.

pup2learn222 wrote:Just burning the iso for a light use & saving to hd file seems a waste of a cd why not put the cd to good use. <This way a person setting up a friends machine to hd can do the whole process without the internet service, just in case they are on dial up too. It just makes sense to me.
You could burn the ISO to one of those tiny CDs that hold just over 200Mb of data, which come in a plastic case the size of a floppy. However they will cost you more in $ and cents than regular CDs which you can buy in bulk for around 50cents each Australian.

I would rather use a full sized CD which has a decent amount of space to write a description of the contents on its surface.

Just my thoughts, hope they are useful, pup2learn222.

There's a fair bit written on the website... check out specifically what Barry (whose brainchild puppy is) has written in regard to your thinking. Enjoy puppy, it's a great distribution of Linux. Create your own composition and then remaster it yourself using the tools provided in the basic puppy :)

Richard in Adelaide
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#291 Post by Pizzasgood »

I've played with RC-2 a little now. My list is much smaller, but I wasn't looking for problems this time, just trying to test my own stuff :roll:

1. Extra /root0 directory (now we use /root in unleashed)

2. The logout message in the IcebergX theme is still un-readible. The relevant stuff would be under the "dialog" settings in the theme file, I believe.

3. /usr/lib/libasound.so.2 a symlink to libasound.so.2.0.0-orig, which doesn't exist. Should it be pointing to libasound.so.2.0.0, or is there a missing file? The "orig" version does not exist in Puppy 2.14. Just pointing it to libasound.so.2.0.0 like it is in 2.14 fixes alsamixer.

4. I'm going by memory for this one, but I think ogg still didn't have a run-action.

5. MP3 still runs Madplay.

6. I had some issues with playing MP3 in Gxine. That was before I noticed the libasound issue though, maybe that fixes it. I'll find out later.


That's all for tonight. :)
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#292 Post by WhoDo »

Pizzasgood wrote:1. Extra /root0 directory (now we use /root in unleashed)
If you are sure this isn't required for any application I'll remove it.
Pizzasgood wrote:2. The logout message in the IcebergX theme is still un-readible. The relevant stuff would be under the "dialog" settings in the theme file, I believe.
I need a tuit ... specifically a round one ... before I can fix this problem. :P
Pizzasgood wrote:3. /usr/lib/libasound.so.2 a symlink to libasound.so.2.0.0-orig, which doesn't exist. Should it be pointing to libasound.so.2.0.0, or is there a missing file?
It should be pointing to libasound.so.2.0.0 and I have already fixed that for the next release. There is also a reply on the forum regarding the fix for those running RC1/RC2.
Pizzasgood wrote:4. I'm going by memory for this one, but I think ogg still didn't have a run-action.

5. MP3 still runs Madplay.
I need the round tuit to fix this one too. Won't belong.
Pizzasgood wrote:6. I had some issues with playing MP3 in Gxine. That was before I noticed the libasound issue though, maybe that fixes it. I'll find out later.
Let me know how it pans out, but only when you get a round tuit.

Cheers
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richard.a
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#293 Post by richard.a »

I have a drawer of square tuits, but only because I never got a round one :)
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Re: puppy 2.15ce

#294 Post by pup2learn222 »

richard.a wrote:
pup2learn222 wrote:Making the iso with everything on it seems a waste if some one will not be using those apps.
That is why the regular puppy does not do this. There are a few choices, yes. But nowhere near what is provided in larger distributions of Linux. We are discussing a specific customised version of puppy here :)

richard.a
If the regular puppy doesnt do this then why so big.

pup2learn222 wrote:By bugs I mean why should a simple sound card like awe 32 or 64 be so hard to set up, the wizzard doesnt work cant find the isa card,however if you put modprobe sb in terminal then sound works.Only by editing a file & adding it will return on next boot, how is a newbie just trying out feeling about now.)
Sounds like you have had difficulties with your sound card being detected.
The only "legacy" (ISA) card I can't get to work through running the wizard is an Aztech which came as OEM with HP's Vectras VL series. I've personally had no sound cards, either PCI or onboard (like AC97) that haven't been correctly detected. My Aztech card isn't detected by ANY *nix OS except for SuSE Linux, the first one which I tried was 9.0

richard.a
Well add creative labs sound blaster awe 32 & 64 to the list not being recognised by the wizard, BTW pclinuxos detected it fine.

pup2learn222 wrote:2. Put the apps & the pup & pupget files on a seperate downloadable ISO with all the libraries to support the pups or pupget.For a dial up user if they need it.
For distribution to friends, I burned the version 2.02 SeaMonkey edition to a CD AS AN ISO along with all the add-ons I thought they might find useful. I figured they could extract the ISO and burn it to their own CD to run.

richard.a
I bring the actual disk & frugal install & setup & give them the disk.This way I set it up the way I like it for starters.I can demo what I know & like.I also leave with a working system for them to work with.Most of my friends wont even look at linux till I show them then they are fine with it.
pup2learn222 wrote:3. Also combine the 2 above to be placed on the cd iso this way once it is burned everything can be added without the hassle of finding it on the servers out there.By doing it this way the servers will be less in demand & we users would have a copy on our cd's which may help others that need something when the servers are down. Maybe set something up with bittorrent use.
Sounds like you are getting away from the Joe User concept of simplicity where someone who knows nothing about computers can slip it into the CD drive, start the computer, and try the OS without needing to do anything else.

richard.a
Joe User will have the working cd my way & I can install all the pups/apps before going on internet.
pup2learn222 wrote:Just burning the iso for a light use & saving to hd file seems a waste of a cd why not put the cd to good use. <This way a person setting up a friends machine to hd can do the whole process without the internet service, just in case they are on dial up too. It just makes sense to me.
You could burn the ISO to one of those tiny CDs that hold just over 200Mb of data, which come in a plastic case the size of a floppy. However they will cost you more in $ and cents than regular CDs which you can buy in bulk for around 50cents each Australian.

I would rather use a full sized CD which has a decent amount of space to write a description of the contents on its surface.

richard.a
I agree with you here :lol:

Just my thoughts, hope they are useful, pup2learn222.

Just my thoughts clarified, hope they are clearer & better understandable richard.a 8) . some day I will get the quote thing going.Best Regards.

There's a fair bit written on the website... check out specifically what Barry (whose brainchild puppy is) has written in regard to your thinking. Enjoy puppy, it's a great distribution of Linux. Create your own composition and then remaster it yourself using the tools provided in the basic puppy :)

Richard in Adelaide

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Re: puppy 2.15ce

#295 Post by richard.a »

pup2learn222 wrote:richard.a
If the regular puppy doesnt do this then why so big.
Regular puppy is around 70Mb in size afaik.

This one is a a lot bigger, with specifically chosen applications and features. It isn't a "regular" puppy release.

This is a Community Edition and it might be good for you to visit the wiki pages so you can see the difference between the two. There have been several very good ones that have been created, starting with the one by gliezl which looked very much like WindowsXP with the blue customisation turned off.
pup2learn222 wrote:richard.a
Well add creative labs sound blaster awe 32 & 64 to the list not being recognised by the wizard, BTW pclinuxos detected it fine.
I don't have those sound cards installed to the best of my knowledge. I may have one in a machine I haven't tried it on, and will look. It may take a day or two.

Remember that larger Linux operating systems (PCLinuxOS is around 650Mb in size on the CD) have generally more whizz-bang stuff that takes up more space on the CD and more overhead on the computer while running.

Actually, the basic puppy v2.02 recognises the ISA bus sound blaster SB16 in an old 386 100MHz computer I tried it on.

Out of interest, I wonder if you ran the ALSA wizard and tried a manual detect?
pup2learn222 wrote:richard.a
I bring the actual disk & frugal install & setup & give them the disk.This way I set it up the way I like it for starters.I can demo what I know & like.I also leave with a working system for them to work with.Most of my friends wont even look at linux till I show them then they are fine with it.
That's fine :)
pup2learn222 wrote:richard.a
Joe User will have the working cd my way & I can install all the pups/apps before going on internet.
That is good practice which you recommend. I do this myself. I have a repository at home on my LAN, copied to the second HDD on each computer, of the add-ons I would like to install.

Remember with Beta versions, and Release Candidates, you often need to download fixes. You are confusing a production version with a test version, perhaps.

We are working in this set of threads with a new version that is not released to the public.

People who do beta testing understand these things. In my case, I have been beta testing operating systems since 2002.



Richard in Adelaide
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conradcliff
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#296 Post by conradcliff »

I hope I'm not offending anyone by asking about better support for toshiba laptops with trident display adapters. Is that just a really off the wall request? If it is someone can just tell me and I'll shut up I promise.

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#297 Post by WhoDo »

conradcliff wrote:I hope I'm not offending anyone by asking about better support for toshiba laptops with trident display adapters. Is that just a really off the wall request? If it is someone can just tell me and I'll shut up I promise.
It's not "off the wall" to ask at all, but may be beyond the scope of the Community Edition, which is meant as a CONSOLIDATION release - fixing bugs, enhancing usability features and polishing look-and-feel issues. Your request might obtain better play on the Developer forum where the guys are working on Puppy 2.16 at the moment. It doesn't qualify as a bug so much as a feature request.

BTW, have you searched the forum for those terms - Toshiba and Trident? My recollection is of a number of posts offering assistance to get video working properly on those machines.

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#298 Post by Sit Heel Speak »

@conradcliff: Have you done a search on the terms "Toshiba Trident" with "Search for all terms" checked? This hardware combination question, IIRC, was done to death by, among others, designengineer. Did he ever get back to you with the step-by-step instructions he promised? PM me.

@WhoDo: the dark blue and black background looks wicked beautiful on a TFT or LCD monitor. On a CRT it's just too dark.

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#299 Post by WhoDo »

Sit Heel Speak wrote:@WhoDo: the dark blue and black background looks wicked beautiful on a TFT or LCD monitor. On a CRT it's just too dark.
I've included several lighter options in /usr/share/backgrounds for those whose preferences lean towards the lighter side. 8)

I'm not sure that ALL CRT monitors will react in the same way to the background. I use it on a couple of 17" monitors (IBM E74 and a clone brand) and it seems ok to me on both, but those monitors are set to my personal preferences and have a bright user lux setting (around 6500 from memory).

I'll have another look at it over then next few days. Maybe a shade or two lighter won't hurt the impression. We'll see.

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The Lighter Side

#300 Post by Lobster »

I follow the Lighter side . . .

However I am very pleased to report that even the dark side of the Puppy Force (in other words the default in Viz RC2) is most excellent.

I welcome the Light
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#301 Post by richard.a »

I would think that a slight change in the gamma of the image might fix any perceived problem. However I thought I'd contribute a bit here on the subject, even though it is probably a bit off-topic, and I ask your indulgence :)

Gamma is effectively the transfer characteristic of light and shade, and can be anything from a straight-line graph to one more of a logarithmic nature - which suits human eyes better.

When I worked in TV broadcasting, back in the days of black-and-white TV - ie pre 1975 in Australia - monitor calibration was always a problem for around the station compatibility. Since colour arrived, it has got worse.

Monitor calibration in theory comprises setting black level (level at which the CRT gun shuts off its electron stream), and peak white level (a fully saturated mix of all three colours) which cannot get any brighter, since colour came in the various red, green and blue levels.

In monochrome TV days, a light meter was used to read that CRT emissions of white, black and the intermediate levels, and brightness control used to set black level, and contrast peak white.

Hence the colour bars signal at the head of a program tape, which include black and white references, meaning once the monitor is set correctly, the program will appear optically as the producers intended it should.

In the domestic environment, since adjustments are now available to the end user by menus on screen and buttons to tweak, it seems more than likely it's just about impossible to assume any user has not maladjusted the settings.

I created a set of "test signal" computer images for anyone who wanted to use them during the time I was writing for Echo Magazines in Brisbane in the late 1980s and all the 1990s. They were created at a resolution of 800x600 pixels because the 625-line/50 fields/second television signal approximates to slightly less than that. Which, of course, is why the Macintosh has an unusual optional resolution there :)

I came across them again after our move here in 2002, and posted them to one of my virtual hosts on an apache web server at http://micro-hard.homelinux.net/wallpap ... /index.htm

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#302 Post by capoverde »

Hello,

I've downloaded Pupy 2.15 RC2 this morning, burnt it and just superficially tested it. WhoDo has kindly put my former comment about 2.15 Alpha on his page: here's the follow-up.

X still needs to be started manually as in 2.15 Alpha; nice looking "X-ray" icons on blue desktop, but will they be readable over clearer backgrounds?

Trying to change number of virtual desktops from the JWM setup wiz makes nothing - it should work on JWM but there's IceWM, right?
Trying to restart X from the JWM wiz also makes nothing; restarting X from the main menu freezes mouse & keyboard -- only way out is a hand reset.

SeaMonkey starts pretty quickly, nice looks; but scrolling is crappy and slow.
Pictures are entirely reloaded in the new position instead of just having their whole bitmap displaced up or down, as it happened normally. Same behavior with Dillo, though not as slow of course; possibly caused by IceWM?? Seems odd... Hadn't seen that on 2.15 Alpa.

Will carry out more tests. First altogether impression much better than 2.15 Alpha, but still some way to go; anyway my compliments & thanks to the whole Puppy CE Community, you're making some great work, folks. :)

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Request

#303 Post by Fiberflinger »

I would like to have one of the film editing programs available. Like Kino, Live, or what ever is available.

Personally my preference is a program that is challanging. not beginners stuff.

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#304 Post by Sit Heel Speak »

richard.a wrote:I would think that a slight change in the gamma of the image might fix any perceived problem.
It would if this monitor were newer. But it's vintage-1994, getting on, so using either the knob or a gamma-setting app to bring brightness up is no good. I'm forced to choose between color washout or insufficient legibility. Not the first impression to give a new seeker who has a less-than-film-editing-quality monitor.

I don't really know if dull old monitors are still common enough for this to be a valid concern. If so, then our chariot should in consequence swing deliberately low: a lighter desktop background, with traditional opaque icons, as the default. Keeping, of course, the fruits of Warren's et al pure unbridled design genius as an easily-found available option.

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richard.a
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#305 Post by richard.a »

Fiberflinger wrote:I would like to have one of the film editing programs available. Like Kino, Live, or what ever is available.
Sounds good. I'm wondering if there is a space limitation though? Any idea how much more space it would take up on the CD?
Sit Heel Speak wrote:It would if this monitor were newer. But it's vintage-1994, getting on, so using either the knob or a gamma-setting app to bring brightness up is no good. I'm forced to choose between color washout or insufficient legibility. Not the first impression to give a new seeker who has a less-than-film-editing-quality monitor.

I don't really know if dull old monitors are still common enough for this to be a valid concern. If so, then our chariot should in consequence swing deliberately low: a lighter desktop background, with traditional opaque icons, as the default. Keeping, of course, the fruits of Warren's et al pure unbridled design genius as an easily-found available option.
I understand, and wonder if the vast majority of folk being exposed to this may have more whizzbang equipment than many of us have.

I was thinking you could adjust the gamma on the offending desktop wallpaper yourself. I do most of my image editing in a similar vintage PaintShopPro (ver 3) running in MS Windows, for no other reason than I know exactly what it will do. I think mtPaint has a gamma change facility too, but would not swear to it. Or at it lol :)

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