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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1109

PostPosted: Wed 24 Apr 2019, 21:46    Post subject:  

hi all

just a reminder of the great variety of distros
available on the puppy forum

i have been using upupbb a lot
great distro
in my opinion as polished as linux mint

but this has encouraged me to try the other ones
like i said i stopped using many of them
because there was a period where i could not get them to work
but this period seems to have passed

wanderer
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 1433
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Sat 27 Apr 2019, 04:11    Post subject:  

wanderer wrote:

are you working on any minimal modular stuff like tinycore


I'm concentrating on adding some Dog-like facility to Void Linux at the moment, but yes I am hoping to generalise that work into more modular form to be used in other distros such as with Slitaz, tiny core, and I wouldn't like to limit any such 'modular' work to any few distros. I'm actually interested in combining some tricks and facilities/utilities from all the small distros into some kind of bolt-on addons. Seems such a waste that all these distros have some great utilities/functionality/facilities that had so much work go into them, but only used on their target distro (or re-invented wheels) when in reality many of them could also be usefully used in other small distros without adding hardly any bloat (since such utilities/facilities are often tiny in size and resource usage). That is one reason I think narrow-minded distro protectionism is against the greater good to Linux community as a whole, and backward as a form of creative thinking.

It is not so much that ideas should be 'stolen/forked' but rather that true diversity naturally results in the rich products of such diversity, which ideally should be modular and able to be bolted on and off (just as we love sfs-load capabilities in Pups and Dogs for example). We should, for example, be able to switch-in or switch-out different package managers and even create ways for these to communicate with each other so they don't have to step on each others toes (so designing-in the installation of specially tailored compiled apps along with say official 'debs or slitaz or tinycore or void' apps in such a way to avoid confict) with, I imagine, some layer of software designed to protect the system from potential conflicts; that might be simply a matter of checking compatible libs or in more difficult cases using a multiplicity of sandboxes/container-technologies.

Puritanical (pure/official/woof-CE pup, for example) thinking is conservative and medieval in technological terms (and very ostrich-in-the-sand-like in terms of this forum's current administration); really there is nothing 'wrong' with a mongrel dog/pup/core/taz/void etc etc, in whatever shape and form most interests its users. And how wonderful a distro that could be forged into any of these or all of these, in part or whole - no such thing then as a single distro - but some upper abstraction that allows any combination to work in a unified rich application-dependant manner. Why restrict ourselves (in this forum community) when in theory there is no such restriction - just different ideas, methods, implementations - all of which can be treated like blocks of Lego to build a true rainbow of 'a' distribution - or pick and choose at run time... Sure, some things have to be 'compatible' but there are ways and means to allow even complete difference to be absorbed without conflict. I'm not sure such a new development should still be called 'Puppy' - that was a wonderful wee distribution from the past and nostalgicly nice that it is still 'current' (in terms of remaining able to use up-to-date repos) and available, but times have changed, and a new distro can be all a Pup was and a lot more than that besides (the Dogs have already proved this).

There seems to be renewed attempts to bolster traditional Puppy support in the form of "Let's make Puppy Great Again" propaganda with new logos and artwork designs being called for from the Puppy community 'masses' for some as-yet-to-come woof-CE Puppy. All well and good?... I think what is actually required is a forum-wide call for a new 'family' name for the new distro/mongrels and venture: a wake-up call, which should start with high regard and visibility for the various creative alternatives and efforts currently to be found in the various threads and sections of this forum.

This forum is not about Puppy, though that product is what it began its life with. Rather, this particular Murga Linux community is the result of the multiple creative minds of its members; the community is not the result of some woof-CE generated Pup being forced/advertised/prioritised upon the (the once upon a time Puppy-only) forum members as the One and Only True Pup - times change, and so has the forum, and what it does and represents. This (n)ever-being-allowed-to-drown thread is but a small reflection of that.

wiak

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makepup: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=965541
tinycore/slitaz: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=990130#990130
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1109

PostPosted: Sat 27 Apr 2019, 14:05    Post subject:  

hi wiak

yes

i think this thread is a great place to discuss and showcase
"alternative" puppy inspired ideas and distros

i also agree that the idea of making applications into modules
from multiple systems is a great idea

then people would only need to use and develop
the modules and cores that they needed

and there could be a repository of cores and modules
to mix and match to make distros

this would be useful for puppy-ce as well
since their components could be made into modules

perhaps a script or recipe
to make apps and cores could be put together

my suggestion is to develop tinycore because

1. the cores and many modules
are already made and are actively being developed

2. i think the symlink system is superior to the layered file system

anyway

thanks for continuing to look into this area
since (unlike me) you have both the vision and the skill to do it

wanderer
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 3054

PostPosted: Sat 27 Apr 2019, 14:29    Post subject:  

wanderer wrote:

i think this thread is a great place to discuss and showcase
"alternative" puppy inspired ideas and distros
Wink
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1109

PostPosted: Sat 27 Apr 2019, 14:41    Post subject:  

hi mavrolthal

thanks for your support

yes this thread may solve the problem

wanderer
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Lobster
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Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15394
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Sat 27 Apr 2019, 22:20    Post subject: puppy 8.1
Subject description: Stir Fry
 

A friend has a small dog named Uzi after the rapper. I consider Uzi an inappropriate name as it is also a popular gangsta gun.

I renamed the dog 'stir fry' and as we head towards Puppy Nine with the official next version being called the politically incorrect Stir Fry. We can if ready do something completely different for 8.1

That includes Slacko, non woof, woof ce or derivatives. Who knows what is in the wok? Very Happy



Please do not cook dogs Wink
without the correct seasoning ... Twisted Evil

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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 14194
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Sat 27 Apr 2019, 23:10    Post subject:  

Hi lobster and all.

Dogs love acting, have you noticed? Even if the role is that of a
vegetable! Laughing (Poor thing!)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To come back to the subject of this thread, may I be allowed to push
three of my Puppies, since nobody has done it:
my Puduan-6, with wmx as the main window manager;
and my bilingual xenial-7.
Both of which have received praise by competent Puppyists.

And finally, my Puppy-Stretch-FR, which targets French-speaking users.

All three are 32-bit Puppies.

BFN.

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~~~~~~~~~~
Je suis né pour aimer et non pas pour haïr. (Sophocle) /
I was born to love and not to hate. (Sophocles)
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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 3354
Location: The Blue Marble

PostPosted: Sat 27 Apr 2019, 23:29    Post subject:  

wiak,

Wow, what serious post! Relax, Puppy is meant to be fun Smile

I'm going to skip the non-fun part of your post, instead will only talk about 2 things:

wiak wrote:
This forum is not about Puppy,
LOL. Tell that to bigpup.

wiak wrote:
There seems to be renewed attempts to bolster traditional Puppy support in the form of "Let's make Puppy Great Again" propaganda

Let's try that with Firefox the web browser we all know and love. Firefox source is all open for everyone. Anyone can build their own copy of Firefox, take its code and embed it elsewhere, take bits and pieces and use it elsewhere, even to the point of implementing a new browser.

But try to brand and publish your particular build as the official Firefox and see what letter will land on your desk next week.

Or try telling people that Firefox is obsolete. That its market share has been falling, and that people are abandoning it in droves due to its unclear vision and its ignoring users feedback. Tell them that a new paradigm shift is needed: why not we take Chromium source, build it, and brand it as the new "Firefox". Proclaim this idea in their forum, and see what response you'd think you'd get.

---------------

Look, your ideas are mostly good. Go and do it. Build whatever you like. Take whatever you think is good, and improve upon it. If you don't like to contribute to Woof-CE, or Puppy, so be it. Nobody's demanding you that you have to.

There is no need to be so negative about Woof-CE and/or "official" Puppy. If they are really that bad, they will die. If they are obsolete and best left in the books of history, they will be.

If your creation is better, people will adopt it, no matter what the name is, no matter whether it is official or not. No "official" tag is needed to make your creation good or popular.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the story of eglibc vs glibc. I'd just repeat the story for those who haven't heard it. Yes, this is the "glibc" as the "C library" used by all programs, that "GNU C library", that /lib/libc.so.6. Here it goes: long time ago, certain developers disagreed with the direction of how glibc went. They went on to create a fork called "eglibc". As time passed, the development on the real glibc became stagnant. All new work happened on "eglibc". You know what happened later? The original glibc was dropped, and "eglibc" was then re-branded as "glibc" (the official glibc).

It could happen to yours too.

I'm certainly looking forward to seeing the fruitful result of your project. But whatever happens, don't get too serious. We're all here to have fun. Smile

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Contributed Fatdog64 packages thread.
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Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15394
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Sun 28 Apr 2019, 04:04    Post subject:  

Quote:
Dogs love acting, have you noticed? Even if the role is that of a
vegetable! Laughing (Poor thing!)


Poor thing indeed Very Happy
That pic is not stir fry (who is a puppy) it is something someone else prepared.

On the Way to Puppy 9 (which does exist) trust me I am a Time Traveller, we (mostly me) are looking in strange places ...
for the first Puppy 8.1 which may be based on the two Woof-Ce BionicPups or then again ... who knows ...
what the past creates and the future generates
https://peace.fandom.com/wiki/Tmxxine_Linux

... and now back to the real dogs ...
http://wikka.puppylinux.com/PuppyVersionSuperseded
http://puppylinux.com/family-tree.html

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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 1433
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Sun 28 Apr 2019, 04:21    Post subject:  

jamesbond wrote:

I'm certainly looking forward to seeing the fruitful result of your project. But whatever happens, don't get too serious. We're all here to have fun. Smile


Me, no, not so serious James - not at all actually. Rather, I'm just making waves in my attempt to move the goalposts a bit, to open the doors more in acknowledgement of the diversity that this forum really now represents. For a long time here it was treated like some cardinal sin if anyone tried made any comment that suggested that Puppy needed to change or become outdated in shape and form, or to imply that this forum was no longer really a traditional Puppy-only forum (whether it should be or not is nothing to do with the reality of how it is).

I do think that woof/and-later-woof-CE was put together at BarryK's retirement from Puppy so that Puppy could be continued for a while, but as times and technologies change and advance so must all relevant distributions.

woof-CE provides a pattern for what we have come to expect of traditional Pups. However... being a somewhat static pattern with large complex not particularly modular scripts, those who have tried to impose a woof-CE-only strategy for Puppy development unwittingly perhaps have headed Puppy to stagnancy rather than to the fun and motivation inherent in flexible and fluid advance.

Nostalgia (and the familiarity that comes with old patterns of being) is a very powerful emotion but also a dangerous one in terms of keeping a distribution relevant and current.

I can only imagine that BarryK himself wanted to try new things but couldn't 'easily' do that with the already woof-forged set-in-mud Puppy.

So my feeling is that it was/is a mistake to regard woof-CE as the only way to build an 'official Puppy'; to insist that the way to improve Puppy is to push code alteration/tweaks to woof-CE github for consideration. That really is a bit of a monolith of an ivory tower (in practice) so the result is very low forum member involvement and very slow development aside from new recipes for when a new Debian or Ubuntu or sometimes Slackware distro comes out. I can't say that is fun, enticing or at all inclusive in terms of the interests and needs of the Puppy forum as a whole.

I do think a new type of Puppy will gradually appear, but not via woof-CE but rather from grass-roots community level (and quite likely nothing to do with me at all). The community has changed; as technology marches onwards, diversity increases and that is reflected not by woof-CE, but by this forum itself, despite the forum structure itself being utterly outdated in terms of the exposure it continues to give to Puppy at the expense of all the other newer, I dare say more creative developments going on. Effectively limiting the exposure of this forum's creativity in the name of nostalgia is a big mistake IMO - lack of exposure is not an encouragement for developers to keep going with their efforts and I'm pretty sure many of them have no inclination or interest in tinkering with woof-CE instead.

Yes, maybe a new forum would be better, as once indeed happened to a little distro called Damn Small Linux. Problem is, people don't really like changing where they meet and talk (otherwise the likes of Facebook would probably have collapsed long ago); successful forums need numbers, and this forum, through the contributions of all of us, has exactly that - but that is to do with the overall community called Murga Forum - it really is incorrect to think that is just about traditional Puppy Linux design in its woof-CE-captured form.

Nevertheless, I also can't help but wonder how 'healthy' this forum itself really is nowadays in terms of active new faces. Maybe statistics would tell us that there continues to be many guest lookers-on or even logins to look at Off-topic sections, for example, but active posters do seem to be more and more the same old faces, including my own.

But anyway, yes, I do hope something positive grows out of something here, though I certainly wouldn't put my own money on Puppy woof-CE itself as the likely place for the birth of some new, regenerated, Puppy Phoenix. However, nor do I believe that any central committee designed new Pup is likely to get anywhere either - rather, something better will simply eventually appear though only if enough open-minded and flexible people willing to develop and create are encouraged to hang around here.

wiak

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makepup: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=965541
tinycore/slitaz: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=990130#990130
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1109

PostPosted: Tue 30 Apr 2019, 15:37    Post subject:  

hi all

dont forget the great diversity of creations on the puppy forum
see first post

i encourage everyone to post
their favorite/most interesting choices
for puppy inspired projects
on this thread

advertisement follows
now that fredx has solved the firefox issues for corepup
it is an even better choice for a minimal modular base

see you soon

wanderer
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darry19662018

Joined: 31 Mar 2018
Posts: 444
Location: Rakaia

PostPosted: Sun 26 May 2019, 20:03    Post subject: Wiki Entry on buildsystems  

http://wikka.puppylinux.com/Buildsystems
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 1433
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Mon 27 May 2019, 06:16    Post subject:  

http://wikka.puppylinux.com/Buildsystems

Thanks darry, added link to first post; good that you are keeping up with it all!

wiak

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makepup: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=965541
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 1433
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Thu 30 May 2019, 21:31    Post subject:  

From alternative puppy build system thread:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=1029449#1029449
s243a wrote:

https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/issues/1384#issuecomment-491605696


jamesbond_13May2019 wrote:
I considered announcing it; that woof-next integration is in progress but then I thought I'd hear from @wdlkmpx first


Pity, and somewhat lacking in courtesy not to warn s243a immediately. Not notifying him, yet knowing he is working with woof-next code and changing a lot of code up at woof-CE/woof-next could make a lot of extra work for s243a since, if unlucky, may end up needing to re-write lots of code to take into account unknown changes to the 'official' code base.

Quote:
mavrothal_13May2019 wrote:
The fact is that there are several forum members that have develop a dislike for woof-ce for whatever, mostly irrelevant and personal, reasons.
They are OK with you offering “a 5year-dead project” and can not complain when the real issues appear, but if they are offered an active project, all they’ll do is complain as they always did, because they are not really capable to address any issue. I believe that remotely serious builders have visited github and seen the activity and discussions.

jamesbond_13May2019 wrote:
Agreed. There is a certain level of skills involved when you want to build a distro.


Wow...!!! What arrogant abusive comments really. Quite a little dictatorship evident up there at the supposed community woof-CE github it seems.

Reminds me of an earlier comment by the same woof-CE 'gatekeeper' in another of these little insider woof-CE discussion meetings:

https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/puppylinux-woof-CE.github.io/issues/30

mavrothal_8March2019 wrote:
Based on past contribution @rserwin1 and @ninaholic could be invited (not sure if ever did in the past) but I can not see many more.
... offering "stewardship" to active/vocal forum members (assuming the stewards remain), I'm afraid will transfer the havoc of the forum in github.


I note from the more recent woof-CE discussion that at least the 'alternative' discussions seem to have the woof-CE 'gatekeepers' trying to keep up with what is being suggested/worked-on in the murga puppy forum. Now changing Puppy petget-only philosopy and hurredly trying to merge woof-next with it since that uses native pkg managers such as dpkg/apt... Smile Mind you, we already have native pkg dpkg/apt use in the DebianDogs (and pretty much perfect implementation) so hardly seems worth making a simulated Debian when already have a real puppy-sized/featured one. Maybe woof-CE should just stick to Slackware?

Also note they have idea to copy DebianDog's use of having "own dpkg/apt-accessible repo" in addition to using upstream Debian official. Just use DebianDog since all that is already done... Wink

mavrothal_13May2019 wrote:
On a different matter (should probably be a different issue), chrooted slackware builds may be easer for the user but for the debian family a puppy repo is needed if dpkg/apt/apt-get/synaptic is going to be used. Without it it maybe OK for building but for the user will be a mess if dpkg/apt is not aware of puppy files and the wild pets scattered all over the forum.


Re-inventing the wheel (though jamesbond suggests using one package manager hoping that will help avoid conflicts - may or may not...).

Anyway, good to see Puppy development thinking of changing tack. The lack of community spirit being displayed in their woof-CE github discussions is pretty damning though.

Like Fred of DebianDog suggested recently, it is a pity the woof-CE lot don't bring their 'discussions' onto the murga puppy forum, where most puppy-interested people actually reside. I more than imagine they like to avoid 'ordinary' puppy people opinions on the 'higher-level' matters they seem to feel only they have the technical understanding to discuss. Actually all murga puppy forum members should have a say in such major decisions being made to a community project (silence then being optional) and certainly many forum members have no knowledge of github usage.

wiak

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makepup: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=965541
tinycore/slitaz: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=990130#990130

Last edited by wiak on Fri 31 May 2019, 00:16; edited 1 time in total
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aaaaa


Joined: 22 May 2018
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Thu 30 May 2019, 22:57    Post subject:  

Why is wiak such a crybaby?

If you look at that discussion, s451a already read it days ago,.He is well aware, nobody is forcing him to do what he is doing and you can't force people to do what they don't want to do.

We're all individuals, there are no groups or conspiracy theories, we all do what we want to do and nothing else.

PS: merging code was started months ago by only one individual, being a drama queen like wiak or musher0 doesn't help, in fact it does help to end all efforts.
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