Xenialpup won't boot with Windows 7 -- is it time to give up

[strongbow]

I have a Windows 7 box that is used occasionally, mostly for optical media (rip, burn, watch DVDs). It's not even networked.
Windows 7 Professional
Intel dual core, 3.2Ghz
4GB RAM
250GB HDD
sda1: NTFS; 100MB boot partition
sda2: NTFS; 243GB; Windows C:
sda3: Ext4; 2.5GB; Xenialpup

I'd like to dual boot with Xenialpup to get to know it and to run a few linux apps, mostly to recover data on damaged DVDs.

o Xenialpup Full Install caused no grldr error won't boot
o restore sda1 with dd and sda2 with rsync resulted in MBR error message and otherwise normal boot. (Should have used dd with sda2 also?).
o EasyBCD cleared MBR boot error
o Created dual boot with EasyBCD: when booting to Xenialpup, boot sequence looks everywhere for a bootloader file, then reports "(hd0,3)" is invalid. What's with that? I configured it to boot sda3.
o Noted that bootloader files on sda3 are in root: no /grub or /boot/grub
o Created /grub and copied menu.lst, grldr, and other boot-looking files to it
o Using 'grub legacy' in EasyBCD causes earlier failure than EasyBCD's own grub
o Still won't boot into Xenialpup
o EasyBCD boot menu comes up, and Windows boots fine

So, is this worth pursuing, or do I choose a different light OS?

[Sailor Enceladus]

sda3: Ext4; 2.5GB; Xenialpup

o Created dual boot with EasyBCD: when booting to Xenialpup, boot sequence looks everywhere for a bootloader file, then reports "(hd0,3)" is invalid. What's with that? I configured it to boot sda3.

I think it starts at 0, so sda3 would be (hd0,2)

So, is this worth pursuing, or do I choose a different light OS?

Absolutely. I would install it to usb first, then use "grub4dos bootloader config" in Xenialpup on the usb to put grub on the hard drive. If you have any issues doing this, feel free to post your menu.lst. This worked for me when dual-booting puppy and Windows 7.

[dancytron]

Just as a note, you don't want to do a full install. You have plenty of RAM and CPU to run Puppy, so you should do a frugal install.

[Mike Walsh]

@strongbow:-

If you don't know what a 'frugal' install is, or even how one works, have a look here, at my reply to Donncha yesterday, as to how a 'frugal' works.....in 'layman's' terms..!


Mike.

[mikeslr]

Hi strongbow,

You haven't identified the make and model of your computer. Some computers (most notably Toshibas) are problematic with Puppies; indeed, almost all Linux Distros.

In order to make certain you can run any Puppy I strongly recommend that you first try running one from a USB-Stick. You can find ISOBooter here for installing your Xenialpup to a USB-Stick, together with instructions: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 226#751226,

Once you have any Puppy running from a USB-Stick, there's an easy process for creating Frugal Installs (strongly recommended) of any Puppy, but also Full Installs if you obstinately refuse to follow the advice of people who know what they're talking about.

But, first let's find out if there is some obstacle to running Xenialpup from your computer.

Alternatives for creating Puppies on a USB-Key are Rufus and Linux Live USB Creator.

mikesLr

[mikeslr]

Deleted- double post. See above

[bigpup]

We will assume you actually got Xenialpup installed to sda3 correctly.
You do not say how you did it????

If you did the install using the Puppy Universal Installer.
At the end of the install it gives you a specific entry to put in the boot menu.lst for a full install.

This is the entry that has to be used.
Even Grub4dos Config gets it wrong for this full install.
Frugal installs no problem.

Absolutely. I would install it to usb first, then use "grub4dos bootloader config" in Xenialpup on the usb to put grub on the hard drive. If you have any issues doing this, feel free to post your menu.lst. This worked for me when dual-booting puppy and Windows 7.

Follow this advice after you get Xenialpup running from a USB flash drive.

You need a boot loader on the hard drive that knows how to boot Xenialpup.
Grub4dos boot loader, that comes with Xenialpup, is what to use.
When you run Grub4dos Bootloader config
Choose the install device as sda
All other default settings are OK.
OK.
OK.
OK.
done.

Reboot with the hard drive as the selected boot device and the Grub4dos boot menu should pop up.
It will have an entry to boot windows or Xenialpup.

[foxpup]

sda1: NTFS; 100MB boot partition
sda2: NTFS; 243GB; Windows C:
sda3: Ext4; 2.5GB; Xenialpup
So, is this worth pursuing, or do I choose a different light OS?

The 100MB boot partition suggest to me this is a uefi machine. Is this right? Find out first.
If so, turn off hibernation in windows and secure boot in the bios, for a start.
If so, you will have problems with grub4dos on the hdd. I used it for some time booting from usb; for that you have to turn on legacy support in the bios.
In the end I turned to refind and grub2 on the boot partition on a uefi machine. Works great.

[strongbow]

- First, I want to say thanks for the flood of replies.
- Second, I like what bigpup says, "I have found, in trying to help people, that the things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem".
- Third, I want to check that I'm on the right track.

A) I believed that most Linux (debian) apps can be installed in Puppy. Now it seems that the list of Puppy apps is a very shortened list. Is this true, or am I looking in the wrong places for my info? At this point I want to run VLC, ddrescue, and dvdiaster.

B) I opted for a full install because I believed that I could use 'standard' (read: large) repositories whereas a frugal install likely needed apps in a frugal format (read: fewer apps available) and/or be more complicated to install. Is this nonsense?
=====================
Now, responding to your responses:

o Created dual boot with EasyBCD: when booting to Xenialpup, boot sequence looks everywhere for a bootloader file, then reports "(hd0,3)" is invalid. What's with that? I configured it to boot sda3.

I think it starts at 0, so sda3 would be (hd0,2)

I agree: I thought it odd that EasyBCD sends the boot sequence to a non-existent drive.
========================

If you don't know what a 'frugal' install is, or even how one works, ...

Read it. Like it. Thanks!
But see point 'B' above. Also, as I'm working with DVDs, I thought it made sense to leave the RAM free for them. Or is this another hole in my knowledge, in just the right spot...
====================

... if you obstinately refuse to follow the advice of people who know what they're talking about.

THAT gives me pause.
Is there any value in my points in 'B' and my reply to Mike Walsh? (From someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.) The problem is that I have often addressed non-standard problems in life and have learned that 'proper' setups don't always work the best in these situations. But I DON'T KNOW if that applies here.

o HP Compaq 8011 Elite Small Form Factor
o I have a multiboot created with YUMI, with several distros on it. Xenial can't find its files unless I select the option for filesystem check; then it boots fine. I ran Xenial-on-USB to dd the 100MB partition, rsync the rest, then gparted the 3rd partition into existance.
o Xenial ~runs~ fine: I keep messing up the boot, um, stuff.
o ...what bigpup said about leaving out crucial info.
========================

If you did the install using the Puppy Universal Installer.
At the end of the install it gives you a specific entry to put in the boot menu.lst for a full install.

o Yup. Even modified menu.lst to match the textfile that popped up after the install (including the bootloader) was complete. --Tried it with and without modifying menu.lst. I'm guessing menu.lst is not being read.
o Also tried using Grub4DosConfig from Xenial's menu.

Following the instructions you gave yields "Missing MBR-Helper"

I did get a (presumed) Grub4Dos menu once (don't remember how), when I selected Xenial on the EasyBCD boot menu, but it too could not boot Xenial.
=====================

The 100MB boot partition suggest to me this is a uefi machine.

o Can't find uefi settings in BIOS setup. HP support says it is because, um, uefi is not enabled in the hardware. I'll need to install some drivers.
=======================

o The distro I'm using is xenialpup-7.5-uefi, which I understand will run in eufi or BIOS mode. Is this the problem?
o I'm including menu.lst and the grub4dos log produced by Grub4Dos, as per bigpup. Note that I also modified menu.lst to match Grub4Dos's final display, as per my response to bigpup, above.
=========================
# menu.lst produced by grub4dosconfig-v1.9.2
color white/blue black/cyan white/black cyan/black
#splashimage=/splash.xpm
timeout 10
default 0

# Full installed Linux

title Xenialpup 7.5 (sda3/bootagain)
uuid 6587c3fd-92ca-4447-927a-e249fbdc94ba
kernel /boot/vmlinuz root=/dev/sda3 ro
initrd /boot/initrd.gz

title Xenialpup 7.5 (sda3/grub)
uuid 6587c3fd-92ca-4447-927a-e249fbdc94ba
kernel /grub/vmlinuz root=/dev/sda3 ro
initrd /grub/initrd.gz

title Xenialpup 7.5 (sda3/boot)
uuid 6587c3fd-92ca-4447-927a-e249fbdc94ba
kernel /boot/vmlinuz root=/dev/sda3 ro
initrd /boot/initrd.gz

# Windows
# this entry searches Windows on the HDD and boot it up
title Windows\nBoot up Windows if installed
errorcheck off
find --set-root --ignore-floppies --ignore-cd /bootmgr
chainloader /bootmgr
find --set-root --ignore-floppies --ignore-cd /ntldr
chainloader /ntldr
find --set-root --ignore-floppies --ignore-cd /io.sys
chainloader /io.sys
errorcheck on

# Advanced Menu
title Advanced menu
configfile /menu-advanced.lst
commandline
============================
/usr/sbin/grub4dosconfig
version 1.9.2
Sat Feb 24 15:01:11 +08 2018
BINSTALLER=bootlace.com
232.9GiB
15.2GiB
sda|232kB_ATA_Hitachi_HDS72102
sdb|15kB_SanDisk_Cruzer
PCPARTS:
/dev/sda1|ntfs|102400
/dev/sda2|ntfs|241483776
/dev/sda3|ext4|2611200menu

LPART:/dev/sda1|ntfs|102400
MYPUPPY=sdb1/multiboot/xenialpup-7.5-uefi/puppy_xenialpup_7.5.sfs

sda3/boot/initrd.gz,/boot/vmlinuz|xenialpup_7.5
sda3/grub/initrd.gz,/grub/vmlinuz|xeniamenulpup_7.5
sda3/boot/initrd.gz,/boot/vmlinuz|xenialpup_7.5
sda1/bootmgr|Windows
sda3/boot/grub/menu.lst|Puppy_Linux_Full_on_sda3
sda3/grub/menu.lst|Puppy_Linux_-_xenialpup_7.5_frugal_in_sda3_dir
sda3/menu.lst|Xenialpup_7.5_(sda3/boo)
sda1/bootmgr|Windows

WIN:sda1/bootmgr|Windows
Writing... /mnt/sda1/menu.lst

:Windows:
:Windows (sda1):
Installing grldr ...
'/usr/lib/grub4dos/grldr' -> '/mnt/sda1/grldr'
1+0 records in
1+0 records out
512 bytes copied, 0.0152958 s, 33.5 kB/s
Installing bootloader on /dev/sda ...

Disk geometry calculated according to the partition table:

Sectors per track = 63, Number of heads = 255

Success.

1+0 records in
1+0 records out
512 bytes copied, 0.00025702 s, 2.0 MB/s
Making backup of the MBR(/dev/sda) ...
'/tmp/sda.mbr' -> '/mnt/sda1/sda_mbr.bak'
/dev/sda Bootalbe: yes, yes

[bigpup]

A) I believed that most Linux (debian) apps can be installed in Puppy. Now it seems that the list of Puppy apps is a very shortened list. Is this true, or am I looking in the wrong places for my info? At this point I want to run VLC, ddrescue, and dvdiaster.

Linux program packaging is a little complicated, because there are so many different versions of Linux.
That is one of the big things that really needs to be fixed in Liunx. One universal program packaging system that just works on everything.
Maybe one day

Yes, for the most part deb packages of programs can be installed in Puppy and will work.
They may or may not make a menu entry, but they will run by starting from a console command or dragging their exec file to the desktop, to make a desktop icon to start the program.
They may require other dependency files or programs.

This info may help you understand.

This is the standard ways of getting programs for Puppy. Try them first.

Puppy Package Manager is the first way to get programs.

Pet packages is the next best way.
Pet package is Puppy package system.
Pet packages are specifically made for Puppy.
They are specifically setup to how Puppy works and is structured.
These program packages usually take a program package down to just what is needed. Most program packages have a lot of extra stuff that Puppy does not need.
They could also be specific programs that where coded just for Puppy.

A SquashFS(SFS) is a compressed read-only file that contains files and a directory structure. If Puppy is Frugally installed an SFS forms the base of the Puppy installation. Extra SFS files can be loaded as additional layers. In full installs an SFS can be decompressed and copied to the installation. The file extension is .sfs. Often large or multiple programs are packaged in this format.
So, an sfs is the complete program and all that is needed for it. You do not install it, but load or unload it as you want.
When loaded it acts as if it is installed.
Why have this?
Why not!
It is just a different way of using a program.

All newer versions of Puppy can use deb packages.
Simply download the deb package and left click on it to install.
However, Puppy may or may not have everything the program needs to run. Depends on how new or old the program is and how new or old the Puppy is.
The program may need a specific version of a support file and that version of Puppy may be using an older version or not even have it.

More info here:
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/software

VLC, ddrescue, and dvdiaster.

All those programs you can probably find in the Puppy Package Manager.

[bigpup]

B) I opted for a full install because I believed that I could use 'standard' (read: large) repositories whereas a frugal install likely needed apps in a frugal format (read: fewer apps available) and/or be more complicated to install. Is this nonsense?

Total nonsense!!!
A frugal install can do everything a full can do and even more.
That frugal name was originally about how it takes so little control of the storage device to do the Puppy install.

I wish that name could be changed to something other than frugal install, but it is too much into the Puppy code and would take too much to change it.

All frugal is a different way to install the total Puppy operating system.
It has a lot of features you can not have with a full install.
A lot of Puppies abilities are only usable with a frugal install.

Frugal installs:

Can be put on any partition any format, any type storage device.

They load more of Puppy into RAM.

Easier to backup, because all changes, settings are in the save. The core Puppy files never change. Only what is in the save changes. All you have to do is copy the save to have a backup.
If Puppy really gets messed up. Just delete the save and replace it with the backup save.

You can easily load or unload SFS program packages.
This lets you use a program without actually installing it to Puppy. You will have to use this option to fully understand it.

All of Puppy is placed in a directory (folder).
You can have many Puppies on one partition.
All completely separate from the other.
All in different directories (Linux term for folder).

Full installs:
Must be installed to a Linux formatted partition.
Uses the entire partition.
Main advantage is it uses less memory to boot to desktop.
Does not use layered file system.
Works best for compiling.
Does not run into size limit that a save file has on a fat32 format.

[bigpup]

bigpup wrote:
If you did the install using the Puppy Universal Installer.
At the end of the install it gives you a specific entry to put in the boot menu.lst for a full install.

o Yup. Even modified menu.lst to match the textfile that popped up after the install (including the bootloader) was complete. --Tried it with and without modifying menu.lst. I'm guessing menu.lst is not being read.
o Also tried using Grub4DosConfig from Xenial's menu.

Following the instructions you gave yields "Missing MBR-Helper"

I did get a (presumed) Grub4Dos menu once (don't remember how), when I selected Xenial on the EasyBCD boot menu, but it too could not boot Xenial.

It sounds like the EasyBCD boot loader is in control and trying to boot from it.
It just may not know how to boot Xenialpup.

If you did the Grub4dos config the way I stated. It should have taken over as the controlling boot loader and booted directly to it.

That full install entry that needs to go into the Grub4dos menu.lst.

The Universal Installer should have given you this for the entry to use for a full install.

Example of mine. Your UUID and sd name will be different

Code: Select all

title Puppy Linux - xenialpup 7.5 full install in sda5
#root (hd0,0) <-- GRUB legacy, ex: (hd1,0)
uuid 18607902-749e-4bf3-a7ff-21f645b9c15b
kernel /boot/vmlinuz fullinstall root=UUID=18607902-749e-4bf3-a7ff-21f645b9c15b pmedia=atahd
# root=/dev/sda5
initrd /boot/initrd.gz

Grub4dos config will not make a correct entry for full installs. Have to use this one that the Puppy Universal Installer provides.
Or do a frugal install.
Grub4dos config has no problem making a working menu entry for frugal installs.

Something has changed in recent full installs and well Grub4dos config has not been updated for it.
Also the newer bioses have issues with drive identifying at boot. That above menu entry gets around all that. Hopefully!

However, we all highly recommend you do a frugal install.
Even better if you can do it to a partition formatted in a Linux format. Ext 3 is good to use for format.

Note:
That menu entry provided by the Puppy Universal Installer may work in the EasyBCD boot loader menu.
I am not sure what boot loader it is using.

[bigpup]

Also, as I'm working with DVDs, I thought it made sense to leave the RAM free for them. Or is this another hole in my knowledge, in just the right spot...

You have 4GB of Ram. A fully loaded Xenialpup is going to use about 200 to 300 MB.
Just use it.
It self adjusts to ram as needed or not needed.

Puppy is not other Linux operating systems.
Stop thinking about what they do or do not do.

[foxpup]

The 100MB boot partition suggest to me this is a uefi machine.

o Can't find uefi settings in BIOS setup. HP support says it is because, um, uefi is not enabled in the hardware. I'll need to install some drivers.

I am not familiar with windows7 and I also do not understand what HP support says, but it is possible that there is not uefi on your machine: Uefi came into full existence with windows8.
It is good to be able to rule it out.
Do not try to install it, it is not better than legacy boot!

BTW, I second or third my fellow Puppy users: go for frugal install, not full, with Puppy.

[foxpup]

It sounds like the EasyBCD boot loader is in control and trying to boot from it.
It just may not know how to boot Xenialpup.

If you did the Grub4dos config the way I stated. It should have taken over as the controlling boot loader and booted directly to it.

Strongbow, can you tell us if you are actually booting into "menu.lst" or into another menu, maybe the one you created with BCDedit? It is not clear to me now what happens when you boot from your HDD.
And can you still boot into windows 7?
Another thing: where is the boot flag on your HDD, on which partition? You can see this in gparted.That partition is where your "boot installation" should be. With "boot installation" I mean the boot loader (bootmgr (windows) or grldr (grub4dos) or ...) and (perhaps) a configuration file (menu.lst for grub4dos or ?BCD?? for windows). The code on mbr starts first and will look on the flagged partition to find the "boot installation".

[strongbow]

It sounds like the EasyBCD boot loader is in control and trying to boot from it.
It just may not know how to boot Xenialpup.

This seem to fit the results I get.

Grub4dos config will not make a correct entry for full installs. Have to use this one that the Puppy Universal Installer provides.

This fails in the same way.

Or do a frugal install.

I'm gonna try that.

Even better if you can do it to a partition formatted in a Linux format. Ext 3 is good to use for format.

No problem. Ext 3 or 4? How large of a partition? I guess it would be easy enough to 'backup' ('copy' with a frugal install) Puppy then resize with gparted as needed.

A fully loaded Xenialpup is going to use about 200 to 300 MB.

I'm afraid I didn't connect those dots...

Strongbow, can you tell us if you are actually booting into "menu.lst" or into another menu, maybe the one you created with BCDedit? It is not clear to me now what happens when you boot from your HDD.
And can you still boot into windows 7?

Its booting into the aether... [read: "it don't boot"]. EasyBCD 'repairs' this by booting into, um, EasyBCD's bootlist. An additional repair cleans everything to nicely boot into Windows (complains first, otherwise)... or the aether if I choose the Puppy menu item.

It's not clear to me either, what is happening.
After reading https://neosmart.net/wiki/mbr-boot-process/ a few times it seems that the MBR or boot sector is pointing to the wrong place.

BTW all 3 partitions are 'primary'. Only sda1 carries the bootable flag.
================================

Just did a frugal install (to partition, not file) after using gparted to wipe sda3 and recreate it as ext3 (was ext4). Same outcome: "Missing MBR-helper" and 'cat /mnt/sda1/sda_mbr.bak>/dev/sda' gets Windows 7 booting flawlessly again.

After digging deeper on the I-net, I find even more posts with this error message (mostly with Win 7 or and no real solutions for dual-boots.

I found a post in which an EasyBCD tech addressed this problem by stating that the user needs to use the latest version: the user was. That was in 2005, and it (EasyBCD) still don't work.

You KNOW Microsoft did this on purpose. I wonder how many newbies who discover that Grub can't boot Windows and Windows can't boot Linux are even going to bother any further with Linux?

I can't find out what "Missing MBR-helper" is actually trying to report. Is it from BIOS? Windows?

I don't know why grub don't boot, but I fear that if I do get it working, it won't boot Win7 anyway as per above quote. Seems like its time to cut my losses and play with another Linux OS.

[hamoudoudou]

my computer was bought in 2012 with windows 7. Since i have it i successfully booted all puppies excepted. 4.3.1.
4.2.1 works well and 4.1.2 too
Xenialpup, tahrpup, artfulpup..
Did you try Lick ? Topic How-to

[strongbow]

Did you try Lick ?

No. And we can't rule out a slipstream version that won't dual boot. Why can't I find info on "Missing MBR-helper"? The lack of support suggests the message is coming from MS code. If so, why doesn't Grub4Dos put itself in the MBR? Its putting its files in sda1, and I even tried copying them into /boot on sda3 (after creating /boot). I'm ready to hexedit the MBR and sda3's boot sector--if I knew the code structure.

How would I choose an alternate Puppy to try installing? I've really only played with Ubuntu and a tiny bit with DSL.

[Philh]

With windows 7 and easybcd I run easybcd
add new entry
select neogrub
install
then configure to edit c:\NST\menu.lst

title Plop hd0,1 in c:/NST
root (hd0,1)
kernel /NST/plpbt.bin

title Quirky 7.2.90 32 bit(full install on sda6)
uuid 58ee083a-3269-4493-b0ce-8db41b461b48
kernel /boot/vmlinuz root=PARTUUID=1d651d65-06 rootwait rw

title Quirky April 7.2.1 frugal in sda6 dir april721
rootnoverify (hd0,5)
kernel /april721/vmlinuz rootwait rw
initrd /april721/initrd.q

It works on ext2 and 3. Havent tried ext4.

[bigpup]

You need a boot loader on the hard drive that knows how to boot Xenialpup.
Grub4dos boot loader, that comes with Xenialpup, is what to use.
When you run Grub4dos Bootloader config
Choose the install device as sda
All other default settings are OK.
OK.
OK.
OK.
done.

why doesn't Grub4Dos put itself in the MBR?

It should replace and make an mbr on sda with Grub4dos mbr on it.
It is a default setting in Grub4dos config.
A window will pop up asking if you want to do this, but saying OK, should make it write to the mbr.

If you select sda as the device to install Grub4dos on.
It should install to sda1 the following files:
grldr
menu.lst
menu-advanced.lst

Again, not sure what boot loader you were using for EasyBCD. It could be a close version to Grub4dos and some of it's files still on sda1 could be confusing the boot loader process.

For the computers bios you do need to make sure sda1 is flagged as boot.
That tells the bios that sda1 is the boot partition and to look there for boot loaders.
Any boot loaders need to be installed on sda1.