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xenialPup-7.0.6 32-bits with kernel 4.1
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2834
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Sat 27 Jan 2018, 15:50    Post subject: Changing kernels  

Hi Sindi,

"Would a 3.14.79 kernel also work in Tahr without having to change all the modules?" You didn't mention whether you obtained the proper resolution running Dpup 7.0. For Puppies, beginning with Tahrpup and other published about the same time, changing kernels is easy. Their modular design enables any kernel (vmlinuz) and associated drivers (zdrv) to work with almost any set of builtin applications (puppy_Name_of_Variation.sfs). Just (a) substitute the vmlinuz and rename the zdrv and substitute: e.g. rename zdrv_stretch_xx.sfs to zdrv_xenial_xxx.sfs, then substitute. But if dpup 7.0 doesn't provide the proper resolution, neither would the modified xenialpup.

Using Lupu's kernel in later Puppies, or later Puppies Kernels in Lupu is possible but more complicated. Lupus weren't as modular. I don't recall if Lupu's as published seperated drivers from the other "core" blocks which now make up vmlinuz, But, if I recall correctly, it was possible to remaster Lupu so that its drivers would be in a separate module*. Even then, however, some applications may remain in Lupu's vmlinuz that in later Puppies would have had their modern equivalents placed only in puppy_xxx.sfs. Instructions for changing Lupu's kernel, or using it in other puppies, would probably require examining the technique discussed before the end of this thread: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=453164#453164.

*If Lupu is the only Puppy providing the proper resolution, than at the risk of (a) exposing your computer to the malware later discovered potentially effecting Lupu's kernel and (b) the possible loss of the ability to use current applications requiring newer glibc and gtk libraries which Lupu's kernel may not support, it may be possible to substitute Lupu's kernel and drivers for those of a more modern Puppy variant.

mikesLr
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sindi

Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 855
Location: Ann Arbor MI USA

PostPosted: Sat 27 Jan 2018, 19:20    Post subject: substituting kernels between puppy linuxes  

Thanks for the info. Lupu 2016 (kernel 2.6.33) has no zdrv.

But I can attempt to compile a kernel 3 specific to my one laptop, with nv and fbcon support added, and then use it with
Tahr, Dpup and Xenial by substituting vmlinuz and zdrv*sfs. (How do I make a zdrv*sfs?).

I may use the latest kernel 3.2.98 (Jan 26, 2018). Any reason to use 4 or even later 3.X kernel with 2007 hardware?
I read that each update has newer graphics drivers. I want the OLDER driver nv (from kernel 2.6) which I know that 3.0.25
does have.
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2834
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Sat 27 Jan 2018, 20:35    Post subject: Re: substituting kernels between puppy linuxes  

Hi sindi,

[quote="sindi" Any reason to use 4 or even later 3.X kernel with 2007 hardware?
I read that each update has newer graphics drivers. I want the OLDER driver nv (from kernel 2.6) which I know that 3.0.25
does have.[/quote]

Actually compiling Kernels and drivers is "above my pay-grade." I thought, but couldn't find, a specific thread on compiling. Searching, https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=015995643981050743583%3Aabvzbibgzxo&q=#gsc.tab=0 revealed some posts by those who needed special drivers. But, I suggest further questions about compiling kernels and their drivers be opened on the "User's" Subforum so as (a) to attract the attention of those who know and (b) not further divert from the subject of this thread, "
xenialPup-7.0.6 32-bits with kernel 4.1".

The problem with choice is that it usually involves a trade-off. Musher0 published Xenialpup with kernel 4.1 after determining that the "standard" 4.9 Kernel placed too high a demand on some computers, resulting in slow performance.

Regarding which Kernel to compile, 3.2.98 appears to be among the few kernels for which the creators of kernels will provide "Long Term Support". https://www.kernel.org/. I haven't been able to find any information as to when that support will end. So your guess is as good as mine. But all things not being equal --can the driver you need be created with that kernel? and the newer the kernel the likelihood that it will require more computing (RAM, CPU) resources-- it is my guess that the lower the number a LTS kernel has, the sooner support will end.

So, my best guess is try to find out if there are any obstacles you won't be able to overcome in creating the drivers you need for any LTS kernel, and then selecting from the remaining possible kernels that which would have the longest support yet still provide acceptable performance on your computer. A lot will depend on how much RAM it has, or can be maxed-out to. Adding RAM is cheaper than buying a new computer.

mikesLr
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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 13152
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Sun 28 Jan 2018, 00:59    Post subject:  

Hi guys.

A bazaar of notes, if I may, in no order:

-- usually the newer drivers incorporate the capabilities of the ones that came before it.
Of course, some older features may be dropped too... But usually, as the proverb goes,
"what can do more can do less." (So I am surprised at sindi's problem.)

-- @mikeslr: the "throw away" dates for LTS kernels are mentioned here, +/- middle
of the page, sub-title "Longterm".

-- @sindi: if you can enlist the help of forum member stemsee, AFAIK, he is the Puppy
expert on kernel compiling. He could help you create a zdrv-xyz.sfs file. Or of course
any dev competent in that field. I would suggest not to try it all by yourself at first.
(But then you may be a genius waiting to be discovered, and this would be a good way
to find out!!!) Wink

-- Speaking of zdrv's, when you remaster, you can specify that the contents of the zdrv
be included in the main Puppy sfs -- or left as is in a separate zdrv archive.

What this means is that it does not matter how, e.g., the nouveau drivers get in the
/lib/firmware/nouveau directory as long as they get there. Directly from the main sfs is
fine; they do not have to be in a zdrv-xyz.sfs archive. This much I know -- but this info
needs to be double-checked and probably completed by a competent person.

-- You create any sfs file with mksquashfs. The basic syntax is:
Code:
mksquashfs directory/ name-of-archive.sfs -noappend -all-root -comp gz
You can add some parameters, e.g.
Code:
mksquashfs directory/ name-of-archive.sfs -noappend -all-root -comp xz -b 1048576 -Xdict-size 100%
to make the sfs archive very compact.
Quote:
Meaning of those parameters:
-noappend : overwrites an existing sfs

-all-root : makes all files in the originating directory belong to user "root" in the destination
archive. In Puppy, we always work as "root", so it is good to set this parameter, in case
we unknowingly incorporate files from other sources whose ownership would be different.

-comp : the compression type, generally gz or xz, but sometimes lz4, etc, depending on
if these compresion types are activated in the kernel.

-b and -Xdict-size : used to increase the compression rate.

IHTH. BFN.

_________________
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
Je suis né pour aimer et non pas pour haïr. (Sophocle) /
I was born to love and not to hate. (Sophocles)
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sindi

Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 855
Location: Ann Arbor MI USA

PostPosted: Sun 28 Jan 2018, 13:56    Post subject: compiling kernel for my dv6500  

The driver I want is NOT nouveau or the latest offered by nvidia with 3D support. I want the old nv driver that is found in the 2.6.33 kernel and the 3.0.25 kernel of Lupu 2016, hopefully also in 3.2 kernel. I will read changelogs.

Tahr, Dpup and Xenial use nouveau - wrong resolution.
Lupu with both above kernels uses nv - right resolution.

Youtube in Palemoon does not like nv or nouveau and you need to change two MSE settings to get all the resolutions.

I also want to add fbcon and tileblit so I can choose framebuffer console resolution. The framebuffer console method used in the later precompiled kernels produces text that is too small and not as nice looking. I have been meaning to do this for at least a year now. A custom kernel should be much smaller (since my laptops do not have a lot of the hardware supported by newer ones) and run faster. I can edit it to work with other laptops later (change sound, video, ethernet). Wifi will be modular.

I compiled a lot of 2.2 and 2.4 kernels in the early 2000s, 500-800K. Xenial kernel is now about 5MB, lupu about 2MB.

I can hand-edit the kernel config file (.config, stored in puppy as DOTconfig) or run make menuconfig (which explains each feature), then make the kernel and modules.

Does the zdrv*sfs file contain only modules? How do I look inside an sfs file?

Thank you both for your helpful instructions, which I will try to understand more fully before I start to compile. The forum is the best thing about puppy linux.

The last computer I bought was 8MHz with 256K RAM. I use what is given to us. My partner is good at fixing things. I give away most of what we get working, with Puppy Linux, to neighbor kids or local ecycle group. We stopped counting at 250 desktops and about 50 laptops (long ago). I do not buy memory. The challenge is to make what we have work. The kids are okay with USB headphones, pcmcia wifi cards, onscreen keyboards.

Puppy has so far supported everything. Wary most of all, then Lupu (one version or another). But the options for browsers on older puppies are disappearing. Therefore Tahr etc.
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Sailor Enceladus

Joined: 22 Feb 2016
Posts: 1547

PostPosted: Sun 28 Jan 2018, 14:38    Post subject: Re: substituting kernels between puppy linuxes  

sindi wrote:
I may use the latest kernel 3.2.98 (Jan 26, 2018).

I doubt it will work. Pretty much both branches maintained by Ben Hutchings have become busted and he doesn't want to fix them. I forgot what the error with 3.2 branch was, feel free to post it if you try though.
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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 13152
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Sun 28 Jan 2018, 15:22    Post subject:  

Hi sindi.

So you're not a newbie when it comes to compiling kernels, eh? Smile

You wrote:
> Does the zdrv*sfs file contain only modules? How do I look inside an sfs file?

Just double-click on any sfs file. A yellow panel shows up. Click "viewing" at the bottom
(it is very important NOT to click "mount"). A ROX window opens and then you can browse
the folders, etc., to your heart's content.

BFN.

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musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
Je suis né pour aimer et non pas pour haïr. (Sophocle) /
I was born to love and not to hate. (Sophocles)
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sindi

Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 855
Location: Ann Arbor MI USA

PostPosted: Sun 28 Jan 2018, 15:44    Post subject: unpacking sfs in lupu 2016  

I get a 'failed' message if I double click on an sfs file with ROX-filer.

And a longer error message using unsquashfs, in lupu 2016.
Perhaps something is missing or out of date. I can try in Tahr, from which I got the two sfs files. Newer format?

zlib - uncompress failed, unknown error -3 (etc.)

Ben may not have given up. He also maintains 3.16.53.
The 3.2.98 (xz) code is 3 weeks old and about 65MB.

The 3.14.56 (sfs) code from Tahr is about 106MB.

I could not find anything relevant to my situation in the changelog from 3.0 to 3.2. I do not need lower power or faster wifi.

I will try 3.2.98 from kernel.org and then maybe also 3.14.56 from Tahr and 3.0.25 used by Lupu 2016 Sulu1 version (where do I find it?) Compare time to boot etc.
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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 13152
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Sun 28 Jan 2018, 16:10    Post subject:  

Hi sindi.

You asked:
> Lupu 2016 Sulu1 version (where do I find it?)

This is rerwin's last listing for 2017: http://www.mediafire.com/?5il6yef4h3sdj

Maybe PM rerwin about where he put his 2016 listings? Or ask ally where he stored
them on archive.org?

Good luck! TWYL.

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musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
Je suis né pour aimer et non pas pour haïr. (Sophocle) /
I was born to love and not to hate. (Sophocles)
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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 13152
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Sun 28 Jan 2018, 16:17    Post subject:  

Hello again, sindi.

You wrote:
[url]>I get a 'failed' message if I double click on an sfs file with ROX-filer.[/url]

Then try < /usr/bin/unsquashfs name-of-sfs-file > in console. You may need lots of
disk space, depending. Sfs files are generally compressed to 1/3 to 40 % of the
original space.

BFN.

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musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
Je suis né pour aimer et non pas pour haïr. (Sophocle) /
I was born to love and not to hate. (Sophocles)
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sindi

Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 855
Location: Ann Arbor MI USA

PostPosted: Sun 28 Jan 2018, 17:05    Post subject: kernel source code  

I have Sulu1 - what I cannot find is source code for its 3.0.25 kernel.
I tried unsquashfs already and get error messages about zlib (in lupu, unsquashing Tahr files).
I should try with Tahr.

Compiling may take only an hour but research can take days.
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sindi

Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 855
Location: Ann Arbor MI USA

PostPosted: Sun 28 Jan 2018, 17:18    Post subject: unsquashfs cannot be older than the sfs file  

unsquashfs -l devx*sfs works in Tahr on a Tahr sfs file but not in Lupu (2.66.3) on a Tahr sfs file.
The file structure must have changed between the two Puppy versions.
I can now attempt to make a smaller Tahr kernel with nv and fbcon added. Sound and wifi as modules.
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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 13152
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Sun 28 Jan 2018, 18:20    Post subject:  

> Compiling may take only an hour but research can take days.
Yep!

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musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
Je suis né pour aimer et non pas pour haïr. (Sophocle) /
I was born to love and not to hate. (Sophocles)
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sindi

Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 855
Location: Ann Arbor MI USA

PostPosted: Sun 28 Jan 2018, 19:49    Post subject: compiling a new 3.14.56 kernel  

sfs_load /path/to/devx*.sfs and /... /kernel*.sfs)
The files get put where they belong.

cd /usr/src/linux (where all the files got loaded from the kernel source sfs).

make menuconfig

Uncheck a whole lot of things I do not have - serial parallel ata pcmcia bluetooth nfc and sound video ethernet wifi,
with reference to the very brief HELP files. Often they say if you don't know what it is answer N (uncheck). Remove anything
for intel or SMP cpu and keep AMD64. HDA sound, nvidia video, ath5k wifi etc. I checked everything framebuffer. One option lets us use
VESA framebuffer while booting (Tahr does this) so we can see what is happening.

Name the resulting file .config-1. This only took about an hour to make barely-informed guesses. 140K .config and 97K .config-1.
Will the kernel also be 2/3 the size?

Type make and 60 min later realize that I am compiling the default kernel from .config (which is unchanged) and I should have
typed make -f .config-1. 'make' using gcc converts .h (header files) to .o (module files). About 30 min to do the kernel modules
that will be linked into the kernel, and another 30 so far to compile half the modular modules that will only be inserted if needed.
(Over 20 min so far of '/net/wireless'). I can include orinoco when compiling for older laptops - omitted in later puppy linuxes.

Eventually the kernel modules will be linked together into a .bz2-compressed kernel. (I chose that compression method). Probably bzImage.
Then I will practice making a zdrv*sfs out of the modular modules, then 'make clean' to remove all the modules already made and start
over. In the meantime I will 'make' supper.

I presume I can copy modules from the default or Tahr group to my own zdrv*sfs if I forgot anything important. Or compile individual
modules later.
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sindi

Joined: 16 Aug 2009
Posts: 855
Location: Ann Arbor MI USA

PostPosted: Sun 28 Jan 2018, 22:04    Post subject: default kernel compiled - what exactly goes into zdrv*sfs?  

My default bzImage bz2-compressed 3.14.56 kernel (from default .config) is 3,556,992 bytes. The Tahr vmlinuz kernel is 3,556,336 bytes. The kernels are identical according to a comparison program. (So whoever put together Tahr did not make menuconfig).

The firmware and kernel modules (.ko) are scattered throughout /usr/src/linux in ./drivers and ./firmware, mixed with various other files. Over 700MB in drivers - files ending in .ko, .o, .h, .c (the last three presumably source code).

How do I tell squashfs which files to squash into the zdrv*.sfs file?
If there are two zdrv*sfs files am I asked which to use when I boot or must I rename one so it is not loaded? I could not find the answer via a web or forum search.

I do not need to remake the default zdrv*sfs but want to know how to make a new one for this or another kernel (3.2.98).

Is it helpful to have a smaller zdrv*sfs or does it not load its entire self into memory?

Should I switch to a different forum? People here have been very helpful and 7.0.6 is about replacing a kernel with an older faster kernel.
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