Hi All,
It's not that I don't like responding to noobs that "you should not have done a Full install". It's just that I don't think we should have to do it as often as we do. And the reason we have to do it so often is that noobs --jumping right in as you would expect any one to do and uninformed as to the operative facts-- are confronted by Puppy's Installer which uses words that encourage making the wrong decision.
Full install?
Frugal Install?
Now why would anyone want something less than the "whole hog"? Some cut-down version?
We all know that a Frugal Install only means a co-existent install, one which --running from a folder-- can co-exist on the same partition as other operating systems and, thus, enables the user to "frugally" manage the use of Hard-drive space.
We also all know that in certain limited circumstances a Full Install will provide some advantage. But, with respect to computers sold during the last 5 years (perhaps longer) those circumstances arise with decreasing frequency.
As far as I know, there are only two factor which justify a Full Install. The first is limited Random Access Memory. The "cut-off" point used to be 256 Mbs. Below that a Full Install might be the only way to satisfactorily run a Puppy. But today, 512 Mbs is the minimum amount of RAM suggested for most current Puppies. And does having a Swap-file or partition make any difference?
The second factor was a "low spec" Central Processing Unit. But, how low?
There's not much which can be done regarding the myriad Puppy ISOs which are available but no longer being revised. But with regard to those currently maintained and Puppies developed in the future, I would think all that is necessary would be to change the text provided by the Installer.
What would you suggest that text should say?
mikesLr
Completing Advice to Puppy Creators about Full vs. Frugal
+1 I've written about this before. Without a doubt, the term Frugal seems like you only get half the package, whilst Full is everything. Who wouldn't want to get the full deal rather than some basic Frugal thing...?
Perhaps "Modular" is a better term? Or rename to "full" to "old fashioned, traditional, inferior regular Linux style install"
Perhaps "Modular" is a better term? Or rename to "full" to "old fashioned, traditional, inferior regular Linux style install"
Well ,it is all explained in the "Installation introduction webpage" that has a very large button on the first screen of the "Puppy Universal Installer".
I know, WE do not need stinking directions or info on what we are about to do.
That button, seems to me like something a new user, should, key word should, want to look at
You can only offer!
Anyway, the "Puppy Universal Installer" will only offer a frugal install to a vfat or ntfs format, so they at least can not delete Windows by mistake.
I know, WE do not need stinking directions or info on what we are about to do.
That button, seems to me like something a new user, should, key word should, want to look at
You can only offer!
Anyway, the "Puppy Universal Installer" will only offer a frugal install to a vfat or ntfs format, so they at least can not delete Windows by mistake.
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The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected
YaPI(any iso installer)
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected
YaPI(any iso installer)
You could change the name from frugal, but there is a lot of stuff in Puppy you would have to change.
Puppy is not normal Linux, so why should the terms be the same.
Some things are Puppy specific.
Frugal install is one of them.
If you do not want to learn the operating system.
Do not try to use it.
Do not hit me with the idea that some things should be standard.
The main, important ones, already are.
Puppy is not normal Linux, so why should the terms be the same.
Some things are Puppy specific.
Frugal install is one of them.
If you do not want to learn the operating system.
Do not try to use it.
Do not hit me with the idea that some things should be standard.
The main, important ones, already are.
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected
YaPI(any iso installer)
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected
YaPI(any iso installer)
Hi guys.
I do agree with mikeslr on this: the frugal install should be the recommended
option in the pupsave creation dialogs, not the full install. Newbies tend to
trust recommendations. There are so many advantages to frugal install.
BFN.
I do agree with mikeslr on this: the frugal install should be the recommended
option in the pupsave creation dialogs, not the full install. Newbies tend to
trust recommendations. There are so many advantages to frugal install.
BFN.
musher0
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)
~~~~~~~~~~
"You want it darker? We kill the flame." (L. Cohen)
Let's change name of 'Full Install' instead.bigpup wrote:You could change the name from frugal, but there is a lot of stuff in Puppy you would have to change.
I would call it 'Really low ram install', to be used only when you have really low ram...
Edit: Just yesterday I replied to a thread where a new user got confused by install.
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=109971
Fatdog's installer don't have a full install option, it does frugal install but calls it just a install.
But he didn't use Puppy/Fatdog Installer, he used Universal USB Installer. I believe from pendrivelinux.com
So we can't help there, user will have to read online and understand different installs.
How about "Legacy Install". That's pretty accurate because it is the old, pre-Puppy way to install. Plus, no one will choose to be "legacy" without a good reason.drunkjedi wrote:Let's change name of 'Full Install' instead.bigpup wrote:You could change the name from frugal, but there is a lot of stuff in Puppy you would have to change.
I would call it 'Really low ram install', to be used only when you have really low ram...
Edit: Just yesterday I replied to a thread where a new user got confused by install.
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=109971
Fatdog's installer don't have a full install option, it does frugal install but calls it just a install.
But he didn't use Puppy/Fatdog Installer, he used Universal USB Installer. I believe from pendrivelinux.com
So we can't help there, user will have to read online and understand different installs.
Post Subject
Hi All,
I also like dancytron's "Legacy" replacement for Full. Descriptive without getting into the technicalities.
How about "Folder" as a replacement for Frugal?
By the way, I haven't used Puppy Installer in years. So, i also agree with bigpup that having a link to a Help Page would help, if we could get noobs to use it. But is the help page built into the OS or does it take you online? Not wanting to spend the time to run the installer, I did a Wellminded Search on "Introduction Installation Webpage". The first link that it produced was to a dead page. The second was to a Wiki page which was very thorough about the technical differences. But after clicking the various links I still wouldn't have known that Frugal was recommended except under the exceptions I previously mentioned.
The third link took me to Yapi. http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 260#914260 Thanks bigpup for bugging L18L.
Any reason why Yapi should be the default in future Puppies? [Well, if one's going to suggest that the Devs make changes, why not be thorough?]
Of course, the downside of just changing names --for example Full to Legacy and Frugal to Folder-- somewhere noobs will have to be informed of the correspondence so that previous posts make sense.
mikesLr
I also like dancytron's "Legacy" replacement for Full. Descriptive without getting into the technicalities.
How about "Folder" as a replacement for Frugal?
By the way, I haven't used Puppy Installer in years. So, i also agree with bigpup that having a link to a Help Page would help, if we could get noobs to use it. But is the help page built into the OS or does it take you online? Not wanting to spend the time to run the installer, I did a Wellminded Search on "Introduction Installation Webpage". The first link that it produced was to a dead page. The second was to a Wiki page which was very thorough about the technical differences. But after clicking the various links I still wouldn't have known that Frugal was recommended except under the exceptions I previously mentioned.
The third link took me to Yapi. http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 260#914260 Thanks bigpup for bugging L18L.
Any reason why Yapi should be the default in future Puppies? [Well, if one's going to suggest that the Devs make changes, why not be thorough?]Of course, the downside of just changing names --for example Full to Legacy and Frugal to Folder-- somewhere noobs will have to be informed of the correspondence so that previous posts make sense.
mikesLr
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spiritwild
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Honestly, not trying to be a smart a$$, if I would have gotten confused between frugal and full, everything after that would have been absolutely terrifying.
That's assuming by "noob" you mean unfamiliar with linux, straight out of windows type users. The description of frugal and full was pretty self explanatory.
In the end, I think the most frustrating and confusing aspect of puppy linux was the search feature of this forum lol.
That's assuming by "noob" you mean unfamiliar with linux, straight out of windows type users. The description of frugal and full was pretty self explanatory.
In the end, I think the most frustrating and confusing aspect of puppy linux was the search feature of this forum lol.
In the "Puppy Universal Installer"But is the help page built into the OS or does it take you online?
When you click on the big button (installation introduction webpage), on the first screen, it takes you to the usr/share/doc/installation.htm.
"installation.htm" is a file that displays in the browser.
It is built into all Puppies.
There are a few web links on this installation info, but they are not about installation.
Just good info to know and understand on how Puppy works, what is a filesystem, and file system formats.
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected
YaPI(any iso installer)
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected
YaPI(any iso installer)
Post Subject
Hi All,
First my apologies. Should have walked thru Puppy Installer before starting this thread.
*
bigpup had it right in the first place. The problem is getting noobs to actually click the "Help" button. I suggest a modification to the opening GUI something like that in the attached screenshot.
I have suggestions regarding the text on the Help page. But they just might be me being picky, expressing something in a way it would be best for me to understand it.
Frugal Install
A Frugal installation is recommended. Try this first unless you know a Full install will be necessary. By design, a Frugal Puppy runs in your system’s Random Access Memory (RAM). Optimally, a minimum of 512 MB (megabytes) of RAM is recommended for a Frugal Install but it will work with less. Don't worry, any machine built after 2003 is likely to have at least enough RAM. It can be installed to a folder on the same partition as an existing Installation of Windows, or other Linux such as Ubuntu or Fedora. The other operating system will ignore it being there. A frugal install also works on all types of media3. It isn't really “installed
First my apologies. Should have walked thru Puppy Installer before starting this thread.
*bigpup had it right in the first place. The problem is getting noobs to actually click the "Help" button. I suggest a modification to the opening GUI something like that in the attached screenshot.
I have suggestions regarding the text on the Help page. But they just might be me being picky, expressing something in a way it would be best for me to understand it.
Frugal Install
A Frugal installation is recommended. Try this first unless you know a Full install will be necessary. By design, a Frugal Puppy runs in your system’s Random Access Memory (RAM). Optimally, a minimum of 512 MB (megabytes) of RAM is recommended for a Frugal Install but it will work with less. Don't worry, any machine built after 2003 is likely to have at least enough RAM. It can be installed to a folder on the same partition as an existing Installation of Windows, or other Linux such as Ubuntu or Fedora. The other operating system will ignore it being there. A frugal install also works on all types of media3. It isn't really “installed
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