Call to persons interested in the co-operatively...

[musher0]

Hello all.

As the title says, this is a call to persons interested in the co-operatively
structured development of Dpup Stretch-7.

A general outline and exposé of the need for such a project is here.

Thanks in advance for reading this and hopefully spreading the word.

BFN.

[mavrothal]

Good idea but as a person that has tried (and struggled with) the "call thing", I think that is valuable to indicate how do you suggest/envision to go on specifically.
ie how this cooperation will materialise from day to day through specific actions or work flow
For example:
One builds an iso,
the next person changes "few things" and rebuilds the ISO,
the third offers some pets,
the fourth incorporates the pets of the third in the ISO of the second and releases another ISO
the fifth ...
OR
"One" (or 2 or 3 - a small group) always builds the ISOs and the others offer to him/her(/them) directly or through this forum thread, changes in scripts, new pets, etc that are incorporated into the next version released by the "one"?
OR
Through a version control system (maybe not woof-ce but something newer and better) where build or remaster scripts, system scripts, binaries and source code will be kept and modified as needed, and any person or one consensus/volunteer builder will be releasing Dpup Stretch ISOs
OR
All of the above. Some of the above (which?)
OR
Something different (what?)
OR
"not clear. whatever works"
???

[jamesbond]

Good luck with your call. You may as well continue while you're waiting. Fatdog (his)tory: for the first two years, kirk slogged alone. I joined the haul at the beginning of the 3rd year. And for the next 6 years, that was it - me and him. Fun years. SFR joined at the beginning of the 8th year, and step in the middle of 8th year. The more the merrier. To put the context in the right perspective, Fatdog will celebrate its 9th year next month.

Don't lose heart if nobody answers. Best to follow what mavrothal suggests. Structure attracts talent because that will let potential contributors know how exactly they can help. Don't worry about being rigid - you can always change later.

[musher0]

Good idea but as a person that has tried (and struggled with) the "call thing", I think that is valuable to indicate how do you suggest/envision to go on specifically.
ie how this cooperation will materialise from day to day through specific actions or work flow
For example:
One builds an iso,
the next person changes "few things" and rebuilds the ISO,
the third offers some pets,
the fourth incorporates the pets of the third in the ISO of the second and releases another ISO
the fifth ...
OR
"One" (or 2 or 3 - a small group) always builds the ISOs and the others offer to him/her(/them) directly or through this forum thread, changes in scripts, new pets, etc that are incorporated into the next version released by the "one"?
OR
Through a version control system (maybe not woof-ce but something newer and better) where build or remaster scripts, system scripts, binaries and source code will be kept and modified as needed, and any person or one consensus/volunteer builder will be releasing Dpup Stretch ISOs
OR
All of the above. Some of the above (which?)
OR
Something different (what?)
OR
"not clear. whatever works"
???

Hello mavrothal.

Many thanks for your feedback.

I'll first answer you indirectly, if I may, about management style.

Co-op experience in another field of work has taught me not to envision
any team process at the beginning. Indeed, all the options you suggest
could be good for a particular group, but maybe not for another.

Because of that, I'd like the process to be discussed and agreed upon by
all team members instead of being imposed from the start.

Also, as I mentioned, I do not envision myself as the team leader. I think
I can be a good initiator, perhaps motivator at times, that depends, but in
some situations I get emotional, which is not desirable in a long-term
leader.

I think it would be best to have someone with good communication and
organization skills as tbe leader. Someone perhaps who favors leading as
much as possible by consensus rather by imposing rules. A bottom-up
rather than a top-down person. Of course there will be a couple of times
when he will have to be directive because absolute consensus never
exists.

Derived from the above, at the grass-roots level, I believe the answer to
your question would be:

"Whatever works for everyone in the team -- with a view to develop
cohesion and retain all the talents ."

I hope this answers your question.

BFN.

[mavrothal]

I do not think that has anything to do with "management".
Is more of an indication of what potential contributors are getting into.

Today woof-build puppies, no-mater who the builder is, have the recorded co-operation of 24 person (plus jamesbond, Barry of course and several more unrecorded from the BK era or latter).
The next contributor has an idea how (s)he can contribute.
Fixing build scripts, fixing/changing puppy applications/scripts, adding new base distro or just a new features, etc.
(S)he may or may not like this (mostly inglorious) approach or the people involved or something else and thus act accordingly, but does not need to pledge or commit to anything and (s)he can come and go as (s)he pleases.

To that extend some indication of how to proceed may be useful to the person reading this call.
It will also indicate that things are thought over to some extend and the goal is tangible.

However, as jamesbond suggested (and if you go through the first 15 pages of the thread I quoted above, you'll see) do not despair and start coding! If people can see your effort trying to learn and/or teach fishing (as oppose to sell or buy fish), is more likely to contribute.

[Sailor Enceladus]

Hi,

Since most people are working on Stretch, I could start a Devuan Ascii thread. It would basically be the vanilla puduan ISO created from Woof-CE, and below it on the first post a list of "Known Bugs" (like the multi-monitor issue musher0 mentioned in latest Woof-CE), and a possible adrv with some fixes to go along with it in another link, with contributions from others too (unless the issues can be fixed directly in Woof-CE). What do you guys think? Maybe this is off-topic for octopuses...

[musher0]

I do not think that has anything to do with "management".
Is more of an indication of what potential contributors are getting into.

Today woof-build puppies, no-mater who the builder is, have the recorded co-operation of 24 person (plus jamesbond, Barry of course and several more unrecorded from the BK era or latter).
The next contributor has an idea how (s)he can contribute.
Fixing build scripts, fixing/changing puppy applications/scripts, adding new base distro or just a new features, etc.
(S)he may or may not like this (mostly inglorious) approach or the people involved or something else and thus act accordingly, but does not need to pledge or commit to anything and (s)he can come and go as (s)he pleases.

To that extend some indication of how to proceed may be useful to the person reading this call.
It will also indicate that things are thought over to some extend and the goal is tangible.

However, as jamesbond suggested (and if you go through the first 15 pages of the thread I quoted above, you'll see) do not despair and start coding! If people can see your effort trying to learn and/or teach fishing (as oppose to sell or buy fish), is more likely to contribute.

Hi mavrothal.

24 people co-operating to the woof-CE process? Who are you taking me for?
The Out house sink sponge?

Co-operating in the informal sense, probably, co-operating out of sync, certainly.

Co-operation in a structured way and in sync, that's a no and that's a fact.

Woof-CE does not work in structured in-sync way, certainly not as a
structured co-operative would. Besides it's a top down management derived
from Barry K's "bernevolent dictatorship".

Hello direct democracy, close-to-the-people management? Wrong address, I
suppose.

24 people? When jlst is complaining publicly on this forum that he's a team
of one? (My heart goes out to the man.)

24 people? That's a lot of people doing a lousy revision job on the Dpup
Stretch-7 template. Considering all the oversights, etc., found on the
specific thread by ttuuxxx, me and various other people.

Sorry mavrothal, please go sell that salad somewhere else?! That said, it's
probably not impossible for 24 very part-time, very absent-minded people,
to do a lousy revision.

~~~~~~~~~~
As to defining process, you may have a point, some people are attracted
by it.

But I'll stick to my guns that it should be defined not by me or the boss or
the team leader, but by the team members.

I am convinced that better testing and revising should occur. Hopefully,
the potential team mate has a complementary idea. And so on, and we
"discuss this over coffee" and come up with a process that satisfies all of us.
What more can I say.

I believe that people are not baby birds with mama bird feeding them
worms. I do not wish to co-operate with "baby birds" waiting to be fed
ideas from the top. I'm certainly not "mama bird".

BFN.

[mavrothal]

24 people? That's a lot of people doing a lousy revision job on the Dpup
Stretch-7 template. Considering all the oversights, etc., found on the
specific thread by ttuuxxx, me and various other people.

Sorry mavrothal, please go sell that salad somewhere else?! That said, it's
probably not impossible for 24 very part-time, very absent-minded people,
to do a lousy revision

This forum has seen several projects that tried to get established dismissing/accusing/ridiculing the efforts of others.
Non of them went very far.
Maybe this one will be an exception.
Good luck.

[musher0]

Thanks for the good wishes, mavrothal.

Have a great day!

[mcewanw]

Similar 'debate', I think (from 03 March 2017):

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=109810

What I would call a *real* distro: it should have been tested thoroughly by much more than a handful of users, and is often created by a team of very knowledgeable people so nothing will be taken for granted.

Fred points out the main weakness of DebianDog and its variants in my opinion - lack of stable multi-person development team. Even tiny core linux has had a consistent main development team of half a dozen or more experienced developers over the years. I see it as difficult to keep a project going with only one main developer (and most actual Puppy distributions tend to have that problem too it seems) - BarryK was a special case - not often one developer can keep their enthusiasm up for that long - and the murga forum activity/help probably helped a lot.

William

[Pelo]

loaded by error on my pendrive (instead off sailor enceladus one)
However PPM updates well. No browser available, vivaldi or else, neither from the menu nor PPM. Slimboat loaded on the fly.. Works.
Sorry for trouble. I let experienced testors feed back..
"it should have been tested thoroughly by much more than a handful of users"
In the spirit i think some devs wants people to help them achieving their experience. So knowledge is required in programming..
Once finished, no public release will be done
Not for passengers ! private training.