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reborn

Joined: 30 Jul 2008
Posts: 35
Location: Turgutreis, Turkey

PostPosted: Thu 31 Jul 2008, 18:56    Post subject:  

Quote:
While the ideal situation would be a return to the way things were before the forum update,
there is another very acceptable way of handling this, and that is with the "Direct Link" Firefox extension...


And in Opera 9.50 you can - highlight link then right click and select 'Go To Web Address' - opens in new tab.

You could put text urls in a different colour to attract the readers attention
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muggins

Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 6689
Location: lisbon

PostPosted: Thu 31 Jul 2008, 22:45    Post subject:  

Although preferring a clickable link, the sequence of Highlight->Control+c->Control+t->Control+v isn't that much effort either.
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puppyluvr


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 3214
Location: Chickasha Oklahoma

PostPosted: Thu 31 Jul 2008, 23:14    Post subject:  

Very Happy Hello,
I would just like to add, we should if possible, make the answer as simple as possible. Ive seen many cases where the answer given was over complicated, and the same results could be achieved through a few clicks in the GUI.
If the answer has "Open a console" in it, you`ve lost half of them already.
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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11130
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Fri 01 Aug 2008, 01:15    Post subject:  

puppyluvr wrote:
:D Hello,
I would just like to add, we should if possible, make the answer as simple as possible. Ive seen many cases where the answer given was over complicated, and the same results could be achieved through a few clicks in the GUI.
If the answer has "Open a console" in it, you`ve lost half of them already.


Linux is a command line operating system. Without the command line and its shell, there would be no GUI or console to complain about. No one would get lost, nothing would be over complicated, it just wouldn't exist.

A few lines below is an example of something I posted today, only a snippet of a longer post.

Another poster already posted a good solution using an application that needs an NT version of Windows. Is our question answered? Sure for Windows users willing to install Windows software to solve Linux problems, which by the way, already have the software installed.

Neglect Linux users? I don't want to.

I could have made the answer more simple, but I answered in some detail, but I really don't think as much as I could have.
    A Linux solution is as follows:

    dd if=/dev/sda of=/dev/sdb


    Where /dev/sda is the unmounted source
    Where /dev/sdb is the unmounted target
    Where /dev/sdb is the same size or slightly larger, ideally the same size and even the same make and model.

    The default sector by sector copy size is 512 bytes and takes longer than if you specify a larger size using the bs= command at the end of your command string. You can increase the speed of the copy by multiplying 512 by powers of 2 Being conservative in how I do things, I'd probably stop at 8192 or 16384. Usually, I just let it run its course at default values.

    If you want to restore the device you reverse the process.


Would a simple answer have been better than the one I gave?

-------------------------

Puppy has a program call Pudd Copy Drive / Partition

In this case we want a drive copy.

Could you just say 'Pudd' and feel you did a good job? Challenge yourself to explain how to do the drive copy in Pudd with sufficient detail that the user can more or less just follow your instructions. Then we can do a word count.


--------------------------

It is not easier for me to give details, explanations and alternatives as I did in that post. It takes more time. It's harder. I'm trying to give better service.

I generally feel I'm dealing with intelligent people. People smart enough to open a terminal emulator and type in commands and hit the enter key.

I've never had anyone I was helping, that I can remember tell me I've lost them by the CLI, and I give the commands for them to type. An ABC type of thing. We've all had a hard time helping people. Please affirm what you assert: If the answer has "Open a console" in it, you`ve lost half of them already.

Absent any significant feedback along those lines, I think the assertion has little or no merit. Maybe doing something on a console would lose you. But your assertion has nothing to do with you. It specifically states 'them', meaning others. ( 1/2 of them )

If your assertion is challenged. I think you would have to support it by examples. Additionally, we cannot omit instances of when people didn't understand what they were doing with a GUI utility.

Examples: How do I do change an Icon? How do I burn a CD-ROM? How do I change themes? X won't start. How do I change wallpapers? Of course people get lost trying to figure things out with GUI programs.

Sometimes there is a CLI answer and sometimes there is a GUI answer. Today I gave this GUI answer:
    As far as image advertising, the vast majority of them will disappear simply by configuring SeaMonkey not to load remote images.

    This is something any user can do an a few seconds.

    Edit -> Preferences -> Privacy & Security -> Images

    Accept images that come from originating server only


I try and give answers appropriate to the situation. This is shown by examples I posted today. A GUI answer to the exclusion of a CLI answer doesn't seem appropriate to me as a rule for forum helpers to go by.
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alienjeff


Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 2291
Location: Winsted, CT - USA

PostPosted: Fri 01 Aug 2008, 08:14    Post subject:  

puppyluvr wrote:
I would just like to add, we should if possible, make the answer as simple as possible.

You mean like "switch to Ewwbuntu" or "go back to Windows?" Wink

But seriously, there are fine lines between an answer being too brief, just right, and overblown. Hopefully you're not leaning towards legislating how forum volunteers reply to requests for help.

Quote:
Ive seen many cases where the answer given was over complicated, and the same results could be achieved through a few clicks in the GUI.


In some cases this is quite true. On other cases, the shortest path is via the command line. And it's important to remember:

1) not all console-based "fixes" have GUIs,

2) quite often "a few clicks in the GUI" is much more involved to explain in writing than the command line explanation.

Quote:
If the answer has "Open a console" in it, you`ve lost half of them already.

Like it or not, this "mortality rate," for lack of a better term, is what it is. Continual over-"GUification" (over being the key word) of an OS will ultimately increase the mortality rate. The sooner a user learns that the CLI is his/her friend and that the real power is via the CLI and not the GUI, the sooner the user can really use the OS, and not the other way around.

And the sooner the user is helping a new wave of newbs.

_________________
hangout: ##b0rked on irc.freenode.net
diversion: http://alienjeff.net - visit The Fringe
quote: "The foundation of authority is based upon the consent of the people." - Thomas Hooker

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shroomy_bee


Joined: 28 Jun 2008
Posts: 666

PostPosted: Fri 01 Aug 2008, 08:50    Post subject:  

It's true the CLI puts some people off - but.....it really shouldn't. I don't think anyone should ever modify what advice they want to give towards satisfying a certain attitude; that kind of approach never works out well in any system. And it doesn't seem to happen elsewhere - you don't get people asking how to fix their cars then complaining they would have to use special tools to do it.

Besides, to open the CLI you can click on a GUI icon/menu item anyway - maybe sell it to them that way.
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puppyluvr


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 3214
Location: Chickasha Oklahoma

PostPosted: Fri 01 Aug 2008, 18:07    Post subject:  

Very Happy Hello,

OK, perhaps I need to restate my case, as I seem to have missed my point.. I am all for the CLI, and believe that those answers are absolutely necessary. How else are we going to learn? 9 months ago I had never heard of Linux, well I had heard the word, but thats about it. Those are the shoes I try to "put on" when I answer questions. The Linux CLI scared the crap out of me. And I was very familiar with DOS, QB....ect. So its not like Id never seen a command line before. Im certainly NOT suggesting that is the wrong approach, only that the "less advanced" options, where available, be offered as well. Many answers I have gotten have gone over my head, (which, undoubtedly, forced me to learn), but I found myself hesitant to "repeat the question" because I didnt understand the answer. So, I want to offer the "point and click" alternative whenever possible. Linux can be (and is) much more "user friendly" to noobies like me than people think. But often, the "easy" answer isnt given. Perhaps people feel the problem is solved with the CLI answer, so why post the GUI answer ( and these are just generalizations, sometimes the answer is a little of both). I have found Puppy to be the easieat distro to "ease you in" to the Linux CLI and file structure, and now, after some time, I find it to be easier and more intuitive by far. But you dont erase years in months.
Also, as I am involved with the Puppy 400 manual, I would love to see as many of the "easy" answers as I can incorperated there. Thats why I got involved in the first place, was I saw the need for a "noob" perspective.
And, Im sorry, but some people just dont want to know. They want something that does what Windoze does, but better and safer. Puppy can easily provide that, and a lot more. Im not trying to "dumb it down", I just want to give the easy answer first, and then if something more "in depth" is required, that answer is there as well. I totally agree that the CLI is faster and more effective. And "noobies" like me, do eventually gain the confidence to use it. But Im trying to cater to the "brand new" user. Next month they may be giving me and you pointers, but today, they just need an easy way to achieve what they are trying to do. A lot of distro`s forums have a "purist" feel to them, like "If you cant use the CLI then PM me when you learn" kind of thing. Im just trying to make Puppy as easy to migrate to as possible. A lot of forun readers never post, and if an easy answer is posted, who knows how many "lurkers", who are not CLI friendly ,it will help get started. And we all know, once you start.......

Quote:
Hopefully you're not leaning towards legislating how forum volunteers reply to requests for help.

@Jeff.....Im just trying to help poor noobies like me....I would never try to impose my opinions on anyone here. ( Im way underqualified ) ..and am a nobody on this forum anyhow.
Oh yea, for you...
Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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puppyluvr


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 3214
Location: Chickasha Oklahoma

PostPosted: Sun 03 Aug 2008, 23:28    Post subject:  

Very Happy Hello,
Firstly, my answer was based on user comments concerning the manual,
I offer this example of what I mean:

http://www.puppylinux.org/manuals/puppy-40/english/how-install/deinstall-programs/unofficial-petgets

The easy answer is "Click on it"...
The manual is full of these, but I fear to change much besides updating the pictures, as I do NOT want to overstep my limits, or appear to "legislate" anything.
My response is based on user questions and comments.
Maybe the CLI/GUI references were misleading, maybe easy/complicated would have been better.
GUI answers can be overcomplicated as well.
Im not picking on the CLI, just overcomplication..
Many times the CLI answer is the easist and best way, and should be the
first response given.
I seem to have offended, for which I am terribly sorry. It was never my intent to criticize anyones responses, or to attempt to instill "my way" on anyone. I AM A NOOB TOO. But if I can see an easier answer, I try to give it. Please bear in mind that I give GUI answers because I DONT ALWAYS KNOW the CLI answers. I just try to help others like me..
That 3 lines of text could start so much trouble...

@BruceB,
Guys like you are the backbone of Puppy, and your answers are like the Puppy Bible to guys like me. PLEASE do not let my uneducated comments affect the way you respond to anything. My answers and comments come from limited knowledge and experience. I have noticed a change in your responses, including references to this post. If this is a result of my (well intended) post, then I have done a terrible disservice to Puppy, and truely hope to rectify it. I would never want to do anything to hurt Puppy.
Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad
Puppyluvr isnt just a name. I love puppy and devote WAY too much time to
it. (ask my wife) I may be obsessed, but Im learning... However, I would rather never post again than to have a negative effect on Puppy. And any change in your responses, caused be me, would be a terrible thing.
Bruce, I lack the experience/knowledge to "Put up" so perhaps I should "shut up".
I am humbled ...Please forgive my impudence.......

Otherwise:

Quote:
I should be taken out back, and decompiled.


Please respond to me, PM me, EMail me, ect...
...Jay.....
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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11130
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Mon 04 Aug 2008, 15:39    Post subject:  

Puppyluvr,

There are not any more problems or disputes to deal with. Thanks to you. And you over flattered me.

We live in a GUI world and it's becoming more that way.

People who are solving problems in the way of building distros, writing GUI utilities and so on are all well versed in the use of the CLI.

I think if fair to say that scripts, which are command line instructions are the glue that holds Puppy together.

I learned DOS and a version of Unix with no GUI. With those under my belt, things like graphic layers and applications seemed fairly easy.

This knowledge laid a foundation where I feel I have control. I don't know what it is to only have control at the GUI level, but, I don't think computing would be near as fun or powerful as the computing I enjoy.

Best regards,

Bruce
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reborn

Joined: 30 Jul 2008
Posts: 35
Location: Turgutreis, Turkey

PostPosted: Mon 04 Aug 2008, 16:17    Post subject:  

From my beginners point of view I would like to see both methods explained.

Coming from Windows the GUI method would let me do the task quickly. The CLI method would be, ultimately for me, satisfying - knowing how it's done at grass 'root' level - but will take time to learn.

Many years ago I used the DOS CLI alot, usually 4DOS to create batch files to carry out the tasks I wanted, the way I wanted them carried out, so I can see the advantages of the CLI. Many of todays Puppy converts from other operating systems have only ever had a GUI, so a CLI only answer might put them off.

For example, from the Arch Linux beginners Guide:-

Quote:
The Arch Linux system is assembled by the user, from the shell, using basic command line tools. This is The Arch Way. Unlike the more rigid structures of other distributions and installers, there are no default environments nor configurations chosen for you. From the command line, you will add packages from the Arch repositories using the pacman tool via your internet connection and manually configure your installation until your system is customized to your requirements. This method allows for maximum flexibility, choice, and system resource control from the base up.

Arch Linux is aimed at GNU/Linux users who desire minimal 'code separation' from their machine.


I've filed this one away as a maybe future project - when I'm more conversant with CLI usage and Linux in general. By the way the heading of the above fragment was DON'T PANIC - I didn't, it was OOOOOPS! NOT YET.

reborn
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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11130
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Mon 04 Aug 2008, 17:00    Post subject:  

Reborn,

If I could instill an interest in all Linux users to learn the CLI and
scripting I would. My sadness is knowing I can't.

In MS days, I used to consider myself a serial batch programmer.
4DOS was powerful, but Command.com and it's limited internal
commands were sufficient when combined with other utilities.

Eventually I came to a point where I could claim expert DOS batch
programming skills.

I once read - If you like DOS batch scripting, you'll love Bash
scripting.

I never lost the love for the DOS batch scripting and so I love them
both.

The first thing I do when installing a Linux is look it over. Pull out
the terminal emulator, use some text editors and train it to behave
the way I want.

Wishing you success in your journey.

Bruce
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Bruce B


Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 11130
Location: The Peoples Republic of California

PostPosted: Mon 04 Aug 2008, 18:35    Post subject:  

reborn wrote:

You could put text urls in a different colour to attract the readers attention


Unlinked links are black and a PIA, I wish people would make them links unstead of just text URLS. The proceedure is too simple.

Our posts come in alternating white and bluish. Our links come in blue. The contrast is very poor. What I've been doing for a few years is bolding the text and it reads a lot better.

Here is a reference for you to see how it looks bolded. And fortunately this post was on the bluish background, which gives the lowest contrast.

Here is a reference without the bolding for comparison.

What do you think?
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reborn

Joined: 30 Jul 2008
Posts: 35
Location: Turgutreis, Turkey

PostPosted: Tue 05 Aug 2008, 03:06    Post subject:  

Bruce B
I personally have no problem with clickable links - and the bold one is a great idea, my suggested Opera method (which is handy anyway) was based on this from nipper -

Quote:
The way Flash described it is fine, when one puts a URL as a link. However it's possible to give one of those clickable links a name, for instance "click me" and then that is what is displayed. It's probably correct that a lot of people click links without examining where the link, which they have seen as a name, is actually going. It's fairly trivial then to craft a link that presents itself as something other than what it actually is. For example, give the link a name of the form of a URL, http://...etc. and then you have a link that goes somewhere different from where it presents. Many clickers would not notice.


For beginners I would agree with him, happened to me once in an email - shows one web address but the underlying link takes you elsewhere, usually an 'undesirable' site. Only happened the once! I looked into how they'd done it, forearmed is forewarned. From the brief time I've been using this forum I can't imagine it happening, but you never know who (not WhoDo..) is lurking.

Can you recommend any books for bash, as I'd like to have a 'bash' - couldn't resist it (doubt I'm the first) I've got three (pdf) books Wiley Linux Command Line and Shell Scripting Bible, Linux for Dummies & Linux Bible. Is bash 'shell scripting' ? Would one of those be a good place to start?

Ooops - just realised I should have searched the forum first before asking that, nevermind I'll still look but I'd value your opinion. Anyone else like to make a suggestion here please do.
Thanks

reborn
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ICPUG

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue 05 Aug 2008, 08:05    Post subject:  

QUOTE

Bruce B says:

Unlinked links are black and a PIA, I wish people would make them links unstead of just text URLS. The procedure is too simple.

UNQUOTE

I know, I know - but you have to see it from my side. When I am at work I have to run Windows and cannot install anything to free me from IE. When I am at home I like to run a very safe, fast browser.

In both cases this means 'OffByOne' is my browser - you've probably never heard of it but it doesn't need installing - does not allow active x, javascript ....

That simple procedure of clicking the URL button doesn't work with my browser so I use unlinked links.
(I have to manually quote text as well). If there are some text attributes I can apply manually (Like in old Wordperfect days) then tell me what they are and I might comply!

ICPUG
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shroomy_bee


Joined: 28 Jun 2008
Posts: 666

PostPosted: Wed 06 Aug 2008, 09:33    Post subject:  

Ah, see my approach there is different: how can I put this......most folks that buy a PC / laptop do so for the following reasons:

surf internet, download from internet

play games, online and offline

write essays / letters

use email and things like messengers

watch videos, and video media & burn video

listen to audio

login to various buying and banking accounts

and sometimes do financial calcs


So, in other words they don't need to be using any kinds of commands anyway. What I mean is, they would be buying pre-builts with OSs installed and already configured.........so I tend to view anyone that wants to build or configure their own machines as needing to have the most complete info possible to get the job done.

I don't think it's wrong to only want GUI info to get the job done, it's just that if you're going to bother building your own then it's best to know as much about what you're actually doing as is possible.

In terms of the manual and guides - dare I say it, do what Microsoft do (well, they sometimes do) and provide a GUI and a CLI version alongside one another.
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